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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 5 2015, 1:46pm
Post #51 of 73
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"you cannot press the Ring too far" of course....
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It's certainly possible that Smeagol would have choked Deagol to get some non-magical treasure - if Deagol had fished the Maltese Falcon out of the River, perhaps.
It's possible that Denethor (or Saruman) would like a non-magical super-weapon just as much as he'd have liked the Ring.
Or then again, maybe the Ring was messing with their minds. We never will know....
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 5 2015, 1:52pm
Post #52 of 73
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You might either love or loathe...
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...IAmPierremenard's version of Tom's song as a rap ("wights wights baby")
https://iampierremenard.wordpress.com/...-it-had-disappeared/
Not how I'd imagined it, but I think it kinds works (which surprises me: usually I think "rap music" is an unusual example in English of a silent "c" ...
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 5 2015, 8:03pm
Post #53 of 73
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Interesting! Only you could find this, dear Furincurunir!
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Well if another director had done LOTR, we may have had just that on screen. A whole 'nother version of Tom.
Aside from stylistic issues, its odd how truly well the words flow though in that rap sequence. You still really hear the stress points on the -i syllables.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Feb 5 2015, 10:41pm
Post #54 of 73
(1609 views)
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I tend to think that would be the case. 'True character will out', as they say. Gollum was already a petty thief and trickster, so the Ring only gave him more power to continue in his petty crimes. Just my thought...
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Brethil
Half-elven
Feb 6 2015, 1:06am
Post #55 of 73
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Its a neat philosophical point
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by Tom, and the amazing way it makes the imagination race. Just enough is given by Tom's reaction to the lady who wore it once that you want to know who she was. If we were comparing The Hobbit to The Lord of the Rings, chapter by chapter, Fog on the Barrow-downs would be the equivalent to Roast Mutton (my two favourite chapters ). Sting, Orcrist and Glamdring were all found in a hoard in the latter, originally from Gondolin. Did Tolkien intend the same (or similar) plot point here? Could the brooch have been made in Gondolin (or anywhere in Beleriand), and eventually ending up in the Wight's hoard? There are plenty of females in The Silmarillion whom could have worn it (maybe even Luthien or Melian).
That the solutions to mending evils of a present world are found in the hidden relics of older worlds, waiting to be discovered, in perhaps the most unexpected places.
Comparing those two instances sounds like a TAS piece.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Feb 6 2015, 7:30am
Post #58 of 73
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Doh! I should have known that! /
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It's because we're semi-desert
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a.s.
Valinor
Feb 6 2015, 1:06pm
Post #60 of 73
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"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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a.s.
Valinor
Feb 6 2015, 1:11pm
Post #61 of 73
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what are Tolkien brooches based on, historically?
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I don't mean to imply he based each different culture's brooches on a specific historical brooch in our primary world (unless he did, of course!) but started wondering what he based his brooches on. I know he says the blue brooch was once worn "on the shoulder" of a lady, so it was probably paired with another matching brooch and used to hold up her dress. And the hobbits get brooches intended to be used to secure their cloaks.
Anyone know if Tolkien use of different brooches of different cultures throughout LOTR has a basis in historical brooches?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 6 2015, 1:11pm
Post #62 of 73
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Tolkien's plot points are usually pretty easy to decode.
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I like the insight that, in many ways, Tolkien's ideas about adventure in The Hobbit can be found, recast, in The Lord of the Rings -- for example, the heroes acquire their swords from the hoard of a vanquished monster (the trolls in The Hobbit, the wight in this book). To further the parallel here, the monster in both cases had conquered the heroes and was about to consume them, when they were rescued by the unexpected reappearance of a patron whom they had parted company with only a short time before (Gandalf in The Hobbit, Tom in this book).
Well, Tolkien does think archetypically, and also has a flair for livening up generic conventions with imaginative twists and details - the differences between these two episodes are quite distinct and original, and outweigh the similarities.
One of the strongest themes in the barrow-wight chapter is that the barrows are the tombs of the race of Men, in fact of the Men of Numenor who first make their appearance in this chapter (except for a brief mention in chapter 2). A lot of this is foreshadowing of the appearance of Strider/Aragorn in the following chapter, but there is also the fact that the inspiration for the fictional barrows are the actual ones of ancient England, which Tolkien knew at first hand.
With all this in mind, I don't see the point of speculating that any of the treasures that Tom unearths are Elvish in origin. It's possible, of course, in the sense that there were no known barriers to trade between the kingdoms of Arnor and the neighboring Elvish kingdoms. And yet these tombs' inhabitants postdate the Last Alliance, and it's equally possible to speculate that that would be when the Elves began to withdraw from Men, even the highest Men, and would not have shared or traded their jewelry; certainly these are not stolen goods, either, in the way that the trolls' hoard in The Hobbit was.
Then ask, what is the story function of the discovery of the jewel? It precedes Tom's disbursal of the swords. As we eventually discover in Book 5, the little swords are certainly the work of the Dunedain, which fact constitutes an entire plot thread. Then Tom gives the hobbits that peculiar prophetic vision of the shades of the ancient Dunedain Rangers, climaxing with the advent of Aragorn. The entire sequence after the liberation of the barrow seems to be a foreshadowing of the major second plot of the story, which is about to begin (to many readers' surprise, who may well think this really is just The Hobbit, part II up to this point): the Return of the King of Men. Why not assume that the jewel that reminds Tom of the lady who wore it was also the work of the Dunedain of Arnor -- who were, after all, probably not all that bad at making jewelry, weaponry, and other crafts?
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Darkstone
Immortal
Feb 6 2015, 4:50pm
Post #63 of 73
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1. Dreams are an important motif through The Lord of the Ring, for a number of characters. Frodo has several dreams which foreshadow his future; he dreams of the sea after leaving Hobbiton ("A Conspiracy Unmasked"), he later dreams of Gandalf trapped in Orthanc ("In the House of Tom Bombadil"), and he dreams of a ship sailing to the Undying Lands in this chapter. Dreams later occur in "The Mirror of Galadriel" and "The Passage of the Marshes". Is there a particular purpose or reason why all of Frodo's dreams are clustered at the beginning of his journey?
Briefing. “Your mission, Mr. Baggins, should you decide to accept it yak-yak-yak, blah-blah-blah. This dreamscape will self-destruct in five seconds.”
What or who is causing them?
Seems a bit of a grey area. Maybe some Maia associated with dreams?
2. "...Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind ..." Could there be a connection between Bombadil and Frodo's dreams, specifically his singing?
Or a snippet of the Music of the Ainur, giving him a glimse of the future.
After all, later in this chapter, Bombadil arrives and helps banish a Wight through song. Did Frodo wake up "naturally" or was it through Bombadil's whistling?
Yes.
3. There is something about this that has always struck me as odd. Why was Goldberry waiting on top of the hill?
Just like some femine Viking hilltop goddess.
Why was she watching them so intently?
Probably missing some spoons.
What exactly was Goldberry calling out for, and what type of call was it - was it a single note (song), a yell, or a warning, or something else?
"A shriek rang in my ears just then--womanish, it seemed. Did it come from girls--did it come from Nymphai who live on high mountain-tops or in river-springs or in grassy meadows?"
-Homer, The Odyssey
It certainly adds to the mystery of Bombadil and Goldberry. It also reminisces Galadriel as the Fellowship leave Lothlórien. Is this intentional?
Is anything with Tolkien coincidental?
1. Bombadil had warned the Hobbits of the perils of the Barrow-downs and the Barrow-wights. So why did the Hobbits feel like it was a good idea to rest on a one?
When you’re really tired and hungry, anyplace to rest seems like a good idea.
It's sometimes not.
Did they not realise it was a Barrow?
It’s not like they’ve ever seen one. Or is it?
Are they oblivious to the danger of the Downs?
“…the sun was still at the fearless noon…”
2. Just like with Old Forest fiasco, the Hobbits fall asleep in this chapter. Is this a coincidence?
Kinda symbolic of the general attitude towards the coming danger of not just these hobbits, but of the Shire in general, and most of Middle-earth.
One might picture a hobbit named Winston Buckhill writing a cautionary book titled “While Buckland Slept.”
But what do you think?
John Houseman as Bombadil?
An obvious supernatural explanation might be that the Barrow-wight somehow absorbed the heat in the air until it cooled below the dew point, thus condensing the water vapour into fog droplets. This is consistent with Tolkien’s description of the Wight’s “icy touch”
Any sufficiently explained magic is indistinguishable from technology.
Or did Bombadil and/or Goldberry (intentionally or unintentionally) cause the fog (by setting up the rain, and sun)?
Those sneakies!!
Was it their intention to send the Hobbits through the Barrow-downs? Was it so Merry could obtain a (barrow-) Númenorian blade from the Barrow-downs, which would later help in the downfall of the Witch King?
Providence moves in strange ways, and Bombadil in even stranger.
What do you think?
I’m thinking of pie, but what else is new?
4. Were the calls of help real, or illusions used to confuse and disorientate Frodo?
Yes. Specifically, previous souls held by the wight, who allowed them to cry out in terror before they were suddenly silenced.
Do Sam, Merry and Pippin remember being captured, and calling for help?
I doubt it.
5. "I am waiting for you!" - What does the Wight mean here?
I am but waiting for you, for an interval, somewhere very near, just round the corner.
-Death the King of Terrors, by Henry Scott Holland, Regius Professor of Divinity, University of Oxford, 15th May 1910.
Was he specifically waiting for Frodo or is it a general (spooky) remark (i.e. waiting for any unsuspecting traveller)?
Yes.
1. If Merry, Pippin and Sam had been redressed, why hadn't Frodo?
The wight was still searching for the perfect frock. Custom corpse couture must be done properly.
Why did the Barrow-wights not take the Ring from Frodo?
No way the Ring was spending another 500 years in the dark with yet another mindless idiot.
Frodo was caught last - is there a reason for this?
The Ring tried to get Frodo to leave, but nooooo!
2. There are many similarities between Sauron and the Wights - they are both in search of jewelry and they both have severed body parts. Are there any others?
Also sounds like Frodo of the Nine Fingers missing the Ring of Doom.
All three have one degree of separation from the Witch King. Think ol’ WiKi is the Kevin Bacon of Middle-earth?
I guess these are leftovers from when the Barrow-wights were intended to be of kin to the Ringwraiths.
I’m thinking vice-versa.
3. What was the cause of glow of green light?
Gatsby believed in the green light, the orgastic future that year by year recedes before us. It eluded us then, but that’s no matter—tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. . . . And then one fine morning--
So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
-F. Scott Fitzgerald, The Great Gatsby
Where was it emanating from?
A subtle fox reference:
It would be most an hour yet till breakfast, so we left and struck down into the woods; because Tom said we got to have some light to see how to dig by, and a lantern makes too much, and might get us into trouble; what we must have was a lot of them rotten chunks that's called fox-fire, and just makes a soft kind of a glow when you lay them in a dark place.
-Mark Twain, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
4. When you read this part of the book for the first time (if you can remember), what did you think was going to happen?
We were going to lose Hobbit Number Four (Sam) to show how serious the situation was.
1. How did Bombadil find them so quickly?
I’m rather thinking what took him so long.
2. Which is really responsible for banishing the Wight, was it Bombadil's song or the "power" of the sunlight that fills the tomb (or both)?
Bob Marley did it better. Heck, even John Denver did.
3. There is something eerily amusing about this - either that Bombadil was stamping the foot to death or the stamping and thumping could simply describe Tom's 'bull in a china shop' approach to searching the tomb for treasure. Whatever Bombadil was doing in the Barrow, it certainly leads to some amusing imagery.
Somehow I can’t help but think of Bombadil and the wight sniggering behind their hands as they break furniture on the walls and make fake fighting noises, then Bombadil slipping the wight some cash.
4. The Hobbits running and frolicking naked at Tom's insistence has always struck me as a bit weird. But I think Tolkien's point with it was for the Hobbits to symbolically wash away the evil of the Barrow-wight experience by doing something purely innocent, in the way that little children will run around naked and think nothing of it. Unfortunately, it is my modern perspective that makes it odd. What are your thoughts on this?
Well, now we know why Goldberry was watching so intently. Apparently Bombadil encourages passing travelers to indulge in this sort of thing.
5. Why did Bombadil rescue them in both the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs, but not have any further role in The Lord of the Rings?
His fees for travelling expenses are outrageous.
Why did Tolkien set it up this way?
Gandalf set it up that way.
”But you have some strength in you my dear hobbit! As you showed in the Barrow. That was touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all.”
6. Is the wall a reference to Cardolan's destruction?
Sure.
Twice in this chapter Bombadil shows signs of emotion. Who did the brooch belong to?
I’d guess Goldberry’s sister, Blueberry.
Was Bombadil involved in Cardolan's destruction?
He’s got witnesses willing to swear he was somewhere else entirely and they're the type who stay bought.
Does Bombadil show signs of emotion anywhere else?
Everywhere else.
7. The Barrow-downs is part of Tom's country. It comes across that Bombadil can banish the Wights rather easily, so (a) why exactly did Bombadil suggest the route through the Barrow-downs in the first place,
A test.
why did Bombadil not go with them if he knew of the dangers,
He certainly kept within earshot.
and (c) is it possible that Bombadil set the whole thing up?
You think?
Bombadil says that Frodo has a strong will, and we have also already mentioned foreshadowing dreams. Was this a test for Frodo/the Hobbits and/or did Bombadil foresee that Merry would need a Westernesse blade?
Or Gandalf told him. That whole Music of the Ainur… words…song…thing…
8. Is the "purpose" of Bombadil to show that he just doesn't much care?
Acceptance. Like when the Wise accept only a Fool’s Hope can save the West, or when Gandalf accepts he has to fight the Balrog in Moria, or when Galadriel accepts the One Ring can’t help her lands at the Mirror, or when Aragorn accepts he can’t accompany Frodo at Amon Hen, or when Faramir accepts that he has to let the hobbits go to the Morgul Vale,
Sometimes no matter how powerful you are you just got to accept that your role in the overall scheme of things is limited to certain areas.
Do you think the purpose of Tom is to point out to the reader that the whole world doesn't revolve around everyone versus Sauron?
”And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.”
-The Council of Elrond.
Actually just the opposite. The Shire has the same attitude and look what happened to them.
Think a discarded chapter was “The Scouring of the Old Forest”?
Are Bombadil, the Eagles and Ents supposed to reiterate this point throughout The Lord of the Rings - that they only get involved when they have vested interest to?
It’s a point for everyone in Middle-earth. That they can either get involved now, or wait until Sauron is at their door.
Think a famous thesis out of Hobbiton University was “Why Westland Slept”?
9. Merry says: "The men of Carn-Dum came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah, the spear in my heart." Had Merry been possessed by the spirit of the man killed, or did Merry enter into a dream?
“Let me advise you, my dear young friend—nay, let me warn you with all seriousness, that should you leave these rooms you will not by any chance go to sleep in any other part of the castle. It is old, and has many memories, and there are bad dreams for those who sleep unwisely. Be warned! Should sleep now or ever overcome you, or be like to do, then haste to your own chamber or to these rooms, for your rest will then be safe. But if you be not careful in this respect, then”—He finished his speech in a gruesome way, for he motioned with his hands as if he were washing them.
-Bram Stoker, Dracula
10. Tolkien again and again comes back to how tremendously clever, brave and good ponies are. What are your thoughts on this?
Tolkien had experience with horses in officers training, and in his duties as a Signals Officer. But I do wonder if otherwise his finances both before and after the war allowed him much interaction otherwise. In any case, in the years before 1914 horsepower was the main way of travel and getting work done. But by the 1920s, thanks to the internal combustion engine, working horses were vanishing as quickly as Tolkien’s beloved countryside. I can see Tolkien having a wistful regret for the fading era of the noble horse.
11. Have you ever noticed that all the important swords on the Third Age are found west of Rivendell (Sting, Glamdring, Orcrist, Merry's sword)?
Shows the Enemy wasn’t nearly as careless with their weapons.
12. Bombadil likens "making and singing" with "talking and walking". Does this reveal a hidden meaning behind who Bombadil really is?
A scop makes and shapes with his songs.
Is he linked to the Music of the Ainur?
I’m thinking he’s linked with Elrond:
“…I was the minstrel and counsellor of Gilgalad."
- HoME VI, The Return of the Shadow
Bards network.
13. Middle-earth Conspiracy Theory - Why does it appear that Goldberry is always waiting for Tom Bombadil?
A wizard is never late, but Bombadil always is.
1. Have you got a favourite quote or passage from this chapter?
Cold be hand and heart and bone,
and cold be sleep under stone:
never mare to wake on stony bed,
never, till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead.
In the black wind the stars shall die,
and still on gold here let them lie,
till the dark lord lifts his hand
over dead sea and withered land.
2. Is this the creepiest chapter of The Lord of the Rings?
Yes. Definitely a transition chapter.
Are there any other chapters or scenes which could rival its spine-chilling nightmarish events?
The catapulted heads in The Siege of Gondor, the death by immolation in The Pyre of Denethor, and the scattered heads and limbs in the Tower of Cirith Ungol. Shelob's description is pretty nasty, too.
3. If Bombadil doesn't leave his domain, how does he know Butterbur, Maggot, and the lady who wore the brooch?
Either his domain was larger, or else his self-imposed limit is recent.
Butterbur is not someone who comes across as a traveller?
”There you'll find an old inn that is called ‘The Prancing Pony’.”
An obvious question is: How old?
As for Butterbur, he doesn’t come across as a traveler *now*.
Is Bombadil withholding information?
You bet.
How do you account for this?
He’s got a *lot* of information and has to pick and choose what to give out otherwise they’ll be there for *years*.
4. Have you ever been (hopelessly) lost in fog?
Totally.
How did you feel?
Absolutely wonderful!
Ah, fiery haired Mardi Taylor all clad in green, where are you now?
After she kissed me on her porch that foggy night I leaned against the doorbell in a daze and woke the entire house: parents, siblings, dogs…
******************************************
NOTICE: Any reply to this post must contain at least 10 smilies.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 8 2015, 3:26pm
Post #64 of 73
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Why is the barrow "touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all."?
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But you have some strength in you, my dear hobbit! As you showed in the Barrow. That was touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all.
Gandalf to Frodo - FOTR, Many Meetings
We've discussed two possible reasons why this was "the most dangerous moment", as far as I remember. But the discussion is a bit scattered, and I thought it might be useful to gather things here.
Because it is a bit scattered, I've not been able to find all the citations - my apologies.
The first of two perils is that the Ring is obviously nearly captured by the Barrow Wight. I've no idea what would happen then, except I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be good.
The second, which I remember someone raising in an earlier discussion somewhere, is that Frodo is as much in moral peril as he is in mortal peril. What happens to him, and his attempt to slow his corruption by the Ring, if he uses it to abandon his friends and escape himself. Maybe this scene can be seen as a counterpoint ot Amon Hen, where Frodo decides to take the Ring on alone - but to save his friends not to sacrifice them.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 16 2015, 1:25am
Post #66 of 73
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perhaps bombadil's sadness is not just that she had died (which is natural), but perhaps that she had become a wight (which is unnatural).
cheers --
.
Is the Lady of the Blue Jewel buried in that barrow: either the only burial, or one of a group, as at West Kennet barrow (sleeps 50) http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/...-kennet-long-barrow/. Or is the sad thing that the jewel was taken from her in plunder, or passed from her in some other way? And you wonder whether the wights are the ghosts of those buried, or some sort of creepy squatters come later. And TOLKIEN of course does not say 
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 16 2015, 2:32am
Post #67 of 73
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frodo's most dangerous moment -- but what +caused+ his deliberation?
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i think the "most dangerous moment of all" to which gandalf refers is frodo's moral choice to leave his friends and save himself (calculated, arguably weaselly / arguably sane) or to find the courage within himself to do something.
there's a follow-up question to this: was his hesitation just what anyone, any ordinary hobbit would feel? or was it the ring rationalizing the easy way out to him (and thus bringing itself closer to possibly reuniting with its master, once frodo's companions were dead / enwighted)?
a little of both? the ring feeling a likely opportunity in a life-or-death situation, and exploiting it?
"gandalf would admit there was nothing else he could do."
to me... this feels like something the ring would say... the +way+ it would say it. gollum proffers many such rationalizations, most notably when convincing himself to betray frodo and sam to shelob.
cheers --
.
"But you have some strength in you, my dear Hobbit! As you showed in the Barrow. That was touch and go: perhaps the most dangerous moment of all. I wish you could have held out at Weathertop." (bold by Brethil)
Why the most dangerous moment of all?
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
(This post was edited by Maciliel on Feb 16 2015, 2:32am)
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Maciliel
Valinor
Feb 16 2015, 3:35am
Post #69 of 73
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squire! you made my day! : )
i rather liked that myself, but i often amuse myself with word-bending like that. didn't think it would be of any account to anyone else.
many cheers : )
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Feb 16 2015, 9:17am
Post #70 of 73
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You are +most+ welcome!
Ok, hands up who read that in an Aragorn Voice....
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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squire
Half-elven
Feb 16 2015, 1:06pm
Post #71 of 73
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Prof. T. does say the wights came later, and are not the souls of the interred.
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A shadow came out of dark places far away, and the bones were stirred in the mounds. Barrow-wights walked in the hollow places with a clink of rings on cold fingers, and gold chains in the wind. - LotR I.8
Here and later in the story the emphasis is always that the wights arrived, or were sent, to inhabit the barrows, possess the treasures within, and entrap and entomb any trespassing tourists for good measure. They were not the 'ghosts' of the buried royal Dunedain, who were good folk whether or not they were laid low by Angmar. What's unclear, from the suggestive image of eyes and shadow in starlight to the creeping hand reaching for a sword, is what the physicality of the wights is: were they embodied spirits who took over the graves, or were they disembodied spirits who activated the remains of the dead and inhabited them ("bones were stirred")?
On the other hand (ha ha), as you say, Tolkien does not make it entirely clear if the blue jewel's owner was buried in that barrow. But all his stories of the wights seem consistent enough if kept simple: one wight per barrow, and no sharing or trading of bling. The easiest interpretation of the scene has always been that Tom by happy accident finds the brooch of a lady he once knew in life, and that she has been buried there ever since, and now her mortal remains and her treasures have been liberated from the wight's unholy possession. We can add any story we like of how the jeweled piece came there by some other, more complex, path of ownership and inheritance, by why do so? There is romance enough as it is, it seems to me.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 22 2015, 3:57pm
Post #72 of 73
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I did write I will get around to your discussion on Sunday. (I meant last week, but who counts?)
Anyway, I didn't respond on time, as I was preparing the discussion of the next chapter. Let's see what I can do now.
I-1. Is there a particular purpose or reason why all of Frodo's dreams are clustered at the beginning of his journey?
Internal reason, or external?
Externally - this is still a continuation of The Hobbit, in which Bilbo's dreams are prominent. Later this will subside.
Internally - at this stage, we are still experiencing the story as Frodo does. Later, the focus shifts, and we begin preceiving Frodo from the outside; consequently, we do not get to know his thoughts, and his dreams.
What or who is causing them?
Either the Someone who intended Frodo to be the Ringbearer, which could only mean Eru himself - or Varda, stemming from Gildor's blessing.
I-2. Could there be a connection between Bombadil and Frodo's dreams, specifically his singing?
I don't think so. This seems to be more like the Elves' song deflecting the Rider in the Shire - and this vision is repeated when Frodo gets his first glimpse of Elvenhome.
Did Frodo wake up "naturally" or was it through Bombadil's whistling?
It seems that it was naturally.
I-3. Why was Goldberry waiting on top of the hill?
To see them off.
Why was she watching them so intently?
Hmm... considering Frodo's notorious realtives, she might have been trying to find out where the missing cutlery was.
What exactly was Goldberry calling out for, and what type of call was it - was it a single note (song), a yell, or a warning, or something else?
"Humph!"
Seriously - it seems to have been a single note. And yes, it is supposed to be mysterious.
It also reminisces Galadriel as the Fellowship leave Lothlórien. Is this intentional?
That is an interesting suggestion. Thank you!
But I'm not sure it is intentional. It seems that this is Tolkien's image for the fading, or fleeting away of the Old Age.
But compare to Faramir's disappearing in Ithilien - it is also abrupt, but very physical.
II-1. So why did the Hobbits feel like it was a good idea to rest on a one? Did they not realise it was a Barrow? Are they oblivious to the danger of the Downs?
Bombadil also told them on which side to go, and to hurry while the sun is up. So they thought they were still safe - and they didn't realise the danger.
II-2. Just like with Old Forest fiasco, the Hobbits fall asleep in this chapter. Is this a coincidence?
If so, it is a very curious one. But unlike the willow, there is no hint of a spell, or of who puts it.
II-3. In my essay, I concluded that this fog could have been entirely natural - there may not have been anything supernatural about it. But what do you think?
I think the ambiguity is intended.
Or did Bombadil and/or Goldberry (intentionally or unintentionally) cause the fog (by setting up the rain, and sun)?
It is very possible they did so unintentionally.
Was it their intention to send the Hobbits through the Barrow-downs?
Maybe. But it would be highly inconsistent with Bombadil's character as Gandalf assesses it at the Council of Elrond.
Was it so Merry could obtain a (barrow-) Númenorian blade from the Barrow-downs, which would later help in the downfall of the Witch King?
This level of planning would require a higher power than Bombadil (the Author's).
II-4. Were the calls of help real, or illusions used to confuse and disorientate Frodo?
I have always supposed they were genuine.
Do Sam, Merry and Pippin remember being captured, and calling for help?
Not upon waking up. Did they later? We don't know; as far as I can recall, there is no indication either way later in the book.
Or maybe there is? Does Gandalf's opaque story in Many Meetings, about piecing together the Barrow-downs story from Frodo's speaking in his dreams, indicate the others remembered nothing? Even if it is, it is a very slight one.
II-5. What does the Wight mean here? Was he specifically waiting for Frodo or is it a general (spooky) remark (i.e. waiting for any unsuspecting traveller)?
It might be for anyone; but the fact that Frodo was the only hobbit not to succumb under the spell immediately, might hinty that it was on purpose.
And Tolkien's later tale in The Hunt for the Ring, according to which the Witch-king took a part in awakening the Wight, is also very suggestive; but I'm not sure I like it that much, and perhaps the less said about it, the better.
III-1. If Merry, Pippin and Sam had been redressed, why hadn't Frodo?
Ah!
This is were I think a higher power was involved. But I would expect it was Varda. Frodo was blessed by Gildor in Her name, and it seems to be pretty powerful.
Why did the Barrow-wights not take the Ring from Frodo?
They haven't touched him yet; he is protected. Only the incantation invoking Morgoth could penetrate this defence.
Or on a simpler level, they had no idea the One Ring was on him. Which is another reason to discard the account in The Hunt for ther Ring.
Frodo was caught last - is there a reason for this?
See above.
Or else he was the worst horseman, and was thrown from his pony first. Which served him well, of course.
III-2. There are many similarities between Sauron and the Wights - they are both in search of jewelry and they both have severed body parts. Are there any others?
I wouldn't make much of this. And the Barrow-wights are not searching jewellery - if they had, they would have searched Frodo long ago (unless they couldn't, as I suggested above)
I guess these are leftovers from when the Barrow-wights were intended to be of kin to the Ringwraiths.
Maybe, but again - I think this comparison is too far-fetched to be meaningful.
III-3. What was the cause of glow of green light?
Well, this does compare to the corpse lights in the Dead Marshes, doesn't it?
Where was it emanating from?
Hell, of course - or whatever is the Middle-earth equivalent of it.
III-4. When you read this part of the book for the first time (if you can remember), what did you think was going to happen?
I can't remember. And I'm pretty sure I didn't understand much of what was going on, anyway.
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sador
Half-elven
Mar 23 2015, 4:56pm
Post #73 of 73
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IV-1. How did Bombadil find them so quickly?
Non-conspiracy? I'll guess the most dangerous Barrow was well-known to him, like Old Man Willow.
IV-2. Which is really responsible for banishing the Wight, was it Bombadil's song or the "power" of the sunlight that fills the tomb (or both)?
Do we really want to know?
Let's say that Frodo's striking at the wight's managed to break its spell from within, thus enabling Tom to break into the tomb, and the sunlight to cleanse it.
Otherwise we will need to find a serious excuse for Tom's not dealing with it before.
IV-3. Whatever Bombadil was doing in the Barrow, it certainly leads to some amusing imagery.
Yes. Is this a question?
Thirty white horses on a red hill,
First they champ,
Then they stamp,
Then they stand still.
IV-4. Unfortunately, it is my modern perspective that makes it odd. What are your thoughts on this?
I guess it's better than the thirteen dwarves bathing in the Anduin.
IV-5. Why did Bombadil rescue them in both the Old Forest and the Barrow-downs, but not have any further role in The Lord of the Rings? Why did Tolkien set it up this way?
Well, he does have a passive role - he is discussed at the Council of Elrond, and his limitations are pronounced.
Here Tolkien shows them before telling of them.
IV-6. Is the wall a reference to Cardolan's destruction?
I guess so.
Twice in this chapter Bombadil shows signs of emotion. Who did the brooch belong to?
I don't know, of course. I might guess it belonged to a lady of Cardolan - or maybe even an elven-lady who was caught in the Barrow.
Knowing Tolkien, I suspect the latter.
Was Bombadil involved in Cardolan's destruction?
He was around at the time.
Does Bombadil show signs of emotion anywhere else?
Yes, of course - but amusement is also an emotion; and I don't think that's what you've asked about.
IV-7. Was this a test for Frodo/the Hobbits and/or did Bombadil foresee that Merry would need a Westernesse blade?
Most definitely not!
The best excuse I can make is that in order to banish the wights, Tom needed someone to begin the process from within.
But it seems more like Tolkien's way of showing his magnificent carelessness and non-interfering, thus laying the ground to Gandalf's dismissal of him as a possible guardian of the Ring.
And if we take into account The Hunt for the Ring (which I'd rather not), Tom might have been quite blissfully ignorant of the Witch-king having woken up the Barrow-wight.
IV-8. Is the "purpose" of Bombadil to show that he just doesn't much care?
Part of it, yes.
Do you think the purpose of Tom is to point out to the reader that the whole world doesn't revolve around everyone versus Sauron?
To show that hobbity isolationism is not exclusive, yes.
Are Bombadil, the Eagles and Ents supposed to reiterate this point throughout The Lord of the Rings - that they only get involved when they have vested interest to?
Yes.
And the no-less-important point is that they do have a vested interest - if only they could look beyond their noses.
IV-9. Had Merry been possessed by the spirit of the man killed, or did Merry enter into a dream?
Yes, but to repeat Alice: Who dreamed it?
IV-10. Tolkien again and again comes back to how tremendously clever, brave and good ponies are. What are your thoughts on this?
It's a nice payback from the ponies in The Hobbit, which were mostly tasty.
IV-11. Have you ever noticed that all the important swords on the Third Age are found west of Rivendell (Sting, Glamdring, Orcrist, Merry's sword)?
Well, this isn't surprising.
The notable exception is Anduril - and several unknown ones (we know Guthwine and Herugrim) are also crucially important; but these are swords made for War. The swords which are found as a preparation for a Quest (Arthurian-like), are always found before reaching the setting-out point of Rivendell, which seems in a way to be the Camelot of Middle-earth.
IV-12. Bombadil likens "making and singing" with "talking and walking". Does this reveal a hidden meaning behind who Bombadil really is?
Perhaps.
Is he linked to the Music of the Ainur?
Yes.
But then everyone is. I'm not quite certain this means much.
Or it doesn't yet. Bombadil as these chapters are written hearkens back to the silly-looking poems of The Adventures of Tom Bombadil; it is likely that had Tolkien gotten around to it, he would have given him a grand part in the Greater Plan.
Which might as well be detrimental.
IV-13. Middle-earth Conspiracy Theory - Why does it appear that Goldberry is always waiting for Tom Bombadil?
Because he caght her once, and he's not letting her free again!
That's all, I fear. I don't know how to answer the miscellanous question from the top of my head, so I'll leave them alone.
But it was an excellent discussion. Thank you!
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Good to see you back, Mac
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