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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 2:07am
Post #26 of 56
(1026 views)
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sean bean is a great actor, but he does play to type, thats why boromir was so perfect for him, but he does have range, he played a brilliant trans character on uk tv a while ago, i could never see RA do anything like that. bernard hill is terific also and can play real people, rather than just larger than life characters. I think thats the trouble with both RA ad thorin he was written very simplisticly like a cartoon.
theres acting and then theres acting, RA is fine for sunday afternoon tv or action film movie characters, but when your playing against mkellans, stotts, blanchets, he pales into comparison.
i think thats some of the problems i have with the hobbit, it felt to gimmicky, its missing realism. which made lotr work so well.
now imagine someone like Patrick stewart playing book thorin , now that would be a masterclass in character and realism. and thats what was needed.
IMO of course
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 1 2015, 2:28am
Post #27 of 56
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It's just so...so...Christian.
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"It's just so...so...Christian."
In your opinion, is that something bad or undesirable?
"Leave that to the simplistic preaching of C S Lewis."
If all you've read of CS Lewis is the Narnia series, I can see why you'd think that - Narnia being a children's series. Have you read nothing else of CS Lewis? IMO, He was quite deep.
Please elaborate. I'm genuinely curious.
My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Miss-Merriweather
Bree
Feb 1 2015, 11:58am
Post #28 of 56
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I think thats the trouble with both RA ad thorin he was written very simplisticly like a cartoon. It might look that way because Thorin's mind was very firmly set on one single task, i.e. reaching Erebor before Durin's Day.
Almost all other events, problems, emotions etc. that might have distracted him from that fell right through the cracks.
As he said to Balin, "There is no choice. Not for me."
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 12:04pm
Post #29 of 56
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I have a soft spot for C S Lewis, Kirly.
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And perhaps I'm being a bit provocative. He was my favourite author as a child and the Narnia stories my favourite books. I even named my daughter Lucy and was thrilled when another daughter bought a house that backs on to his old home in Oxford. As a teen, I read stuff like his SF works ('That Hideous Strength', etc) and his philosophical works like 'The Screwtape Letters', 'Mere Christianity' and 'The Problem of Pain'.
However, I now see the problems with the Narnia stuff, not least the way he is using the stories as a vehicle to 'sell' Christianity to children. His 'voice' when he talks to his readers also makes me cringe a bit. However, I still think they are wonderful works of children's literature.
When I first read Tolkien, in contrast, I was very impressed by the way that such a devout Catholic didn't bring obvious religion into things, like his friend, Lewis, did. However, he does still rather adopt the patronising tone that Lewis and many other children's writers spoke with at the time, talking down to children as he does at the beginning of the Hobbit - although he shrugs off this tone by the end. I believe that, in later years, he didn't like this tone either and would have changed it if he had rewritten the book.
But, you can tell, at the beginning, that he is saying to himself that he needs to write stuff that children understand (thank goodness this gets cast aside by the last chapters); and part of that 'simplification for children' is that he draws conceits from stuff like the Christian The Seven Deadly Sins. So medieval, don't you know, LOL? And so, the dwarves are 'greedy'. He's thinking that children understand such things, especially when related to their Sunday School teaching. However, I just love those last chapters because everyone's behaviour gets so much more 'shades of grey'. And RA has taken those shades of grey from here and from the Thorin of Tolkien's other writing and has brought us a complex man and a leader without any of those simplistic Christian overtones.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Feb 1 2015, 12:28pm
Post #30 of 56
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Completely disagree, of course
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Sean Bean is not a 'great' actor, by any stretch of the imagination. He has a very small range and always acts the same. That's why he's never broken into theatre, or beyond playing spivs and similar relatively minor supporting characters.
Bernard Hill is what I would call a good actor, but certainly cannot be considered a 'great' one.
As for Patrick Stewart, I do not see him in the character of Thorin at all. For one thing, he is now too closely identified with the American Star Trek series and films, and the like. As for playing 'book Thorin', there would not be very much to play because of the very sketchily drawn, stereotypical character in the book. I prefer the fleshed out version of Thorin that we got in the film by many miles.
For me, Richard Armitage does not 'pale in comparison' with any of the other actors. In fact he dominates the third film in particular, displaying different facets of Thorin's personality like few others could. It is a brilliant characterisation, and very movingly portrayed, and it is, for me, the best thing about all three films (despite many other things that I like, such as Smaug and other characters, and the breathtaking visuals).
So, yes, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to differ on this one, and I'm sure on many other things.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 1:25pm
Post #31 of 56
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Sean Bean is not a 'great' actor, by any stretch of the imagination. He has a very small range and always acts the same. That's why he's never broken into theatre, or beyond playing spivs and similar relatively minor supporting characters.
- he graduated from RADA and started in theatre playing shakespeare.
-sharpe was not a minor character , you need to look at his work.
Bernard Hill is what I would call a good actor, but certainly cannot be considered a 'great' one.
-he os one of the uk most prolific working actors, starting out in seminal works on television defining a branch of realist acting, boys from the black stuff anyone?
As for Patrick Stewart, I do not see him in the character of Thorin at all. For one thing, he is now too closely identified with the American Star Trek series and films,
- when was the last time anyone ever thought this? unless your a trekkie! stewart is a master craftsman, picard is a small part of his career and youd be a fool to think otherwise.
RA is nowhere in the same league as these people.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Feb 1 2015, 2:12pm
Post #32 of 56
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As I said in my previous post, I vehemently disagree with you
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IMHO Sharpe was a mediocre series, in which Bean played himself, as usual. It is all the more surprising that Bean is such a mediocre actor, given his training. I don't care what someone else's opinion is about Hill – MY opinion is that he is a good actor, not a 'great' one. With regard to Stewart, the 'last time anyone ever though this' may well be today! Oh, and calling someone a fool because they disagree with you does not strengthen your 'arguments'.
RA is absolutely better than Bean and Hill as far as I'm concerned. Have you seen him in his theatre work, notably in The Crucible most recently, in which his performance was acclaimed, or in North and South, ditto, or heard any of his radio work?
Given how far apart our views are, I am curtailing this 'discussion' since pursuing it further will achieve nothing.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 2:24pm
Post #33 of 56
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'youd be a fool' is just a phrase, dont take it personally.
you may have your own opinion, but i think its very misinformed. regarding sharpe, are you telling me you had a through knowledge of his work before that series started? i very much doubt it as he wasnt at all well known. sharpe was again an acclaimed tv show. i think you are twisting the general consensus.
RA in the crucible is ironicaly a very similar character to thorin, all deep voice and rage, remember when i said he be typecast?
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Feb 1 2015, 5:45pm)
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AshNazg
Gondor
Feb 1 2015, 2:38pm
Post #34 of 56
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Re: Boys From the Blackstuff...
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...just want to say 'mods up' for that example. I'm possibly the only 26 year old that's a fan of (or possibly has even heard of) that show. Bernard Hill is also the highlight for me, I find him absolutely terrifying, but sort of tragic at the same time. Incredible actor.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Feb 1 2015, 2:39pm)
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 2:58pm
Post #35 of 56
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Sean Bean always plays himself, as does MF. A clever (lazy?) director selects someone who is like the character to play certain roles. Otherwise, he must choose a great actor who can 'become' that person. I really enjoyed Sean Bean when he played a trannie on TV - but he was still SB in a frock and with his usual Sheffield accent. Sharpe was fun: but it was still SB in period costume - with a Sheffield accent. His Lovelace (a famous rake) in a TV production of Clarissa was ruined by - you've guessed it - his Sheffield accent which damaged his attempts at playing someone aristocratic. RA's version of Lovelace in a BBC Radio production was dark and sensuous and spot on.
RA 'becomes' characters and some new fans of RA/Thorin are always disappointed when they find out that, in real life, he is a bit of a delightful dork - not like Thorin at all. Over the years he has played a French impressionist artist, a clumsy, scruffy farmhand, a seedy drugs dealer, an efficient emergency doctor, an ordinary social worker who just happens to be a paedophile, a spy from MI5 and one from MI6 - both totally different performances, a villainous side-kick, a charming accountant with a good turn for comedy, a romantic Victorian mill owner, an ordinary dad, a slimy wife-beater, a fantasy dwarven king and now - new project - a facially deformed, ginger-haired serial killer, a role played by Ralph Fiennes in Red Dragon. I'm sure that some people will be only too pleased to make odious comparisons.
His performance last year (which I saw) as John Proctor in the acclaimed production of The Crucible at the Old Vic received high praise. The NY Times critic who crossed the Atlantic to see it, was thrilled that he brought something truly new and original to the role and compared him more than favourably with Day Lewis' characterisation in the film.
And, in reviews of Bot5A, critics noted time and again that 'this is Richard Armitage's film'. Does that offend some people here?
I've just found this link to extracts from his award-winning reading of Hamlet, (not the play, but a fascinating novel). In the 6 extracts, his narrative voice is reasonably deep but Hamlet's is pitched higher and younger. We also hear Young Yorick, a jester with a comic, youthful voice; Ophelia, a young, softly spoken girl (not pitched in a silly, high tone but merely 'feminised'); Fortinbras, the invader, who has a lovely, lilting Nordic accent; Elias, elderly and well-educated; Polonius, old and vicious and clipped; and the middle-aged King Hamlet, brutal, thuggish and about to be killed. It is a 'performance' not just a reading, and shows off his talents and range very well:
https://soundcloud.com/...ton/sets/hamlet-porn
Just as a PS: actually, I do love Bernard Hill and he definitely has a range that SB hasn't. Loved him in Boys from the Black Stuff and LotR and am now watching him in the new Tudor drama, Wolf Hall.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Feb 1 2015, 3:05pm
Post #36 of 56
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Yes, agree, and thank you for supplying the examples
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My sister told me about RA's reading of that Hamlet, and how good it was, though I have not heard it myself.
Just to say: I do actually rate Bernard Hill as an actor – it's just that he is not right up there at the top for me. I haven't yet watched Wolf Hall (it has had mixed comments, though it features some very good actors).
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 3:18pm
Post #37 of 56
(924 views)
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RA does not become characters, he is the least characterful actor there is! character actors are people like tomothy spall or johnny depp... ironically if anything RA is the new sean bean , very similar infact! pretty one note typecasted.
i think it may be peoples hormones that may have an influence his perceived acting prowess.
p.s that hamlet reading is terrible! hamlet porn? whats that about, also note is that a yorkshire accent? ahem sean bean
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dormouse
Half-elven
Feb 1 2015, 3:31pm
Post #38 of 56
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Richard Armitage does become his characters. It's one thing he's noted for.
Your comments are so far from the general critical perception of his performances that, putting them together with your 'hormone' comment I'm wondering if you might be just a little jealous.......
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 3:50pm
Post #39 of 56
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he may become his characters, but thats different to being a character actor or doesnt imply he has range. I have seen him act in person and his mannerisms voice and tone were very familiar, he could have still been playing thorin, or a troubled spook! its to do with his size aswell , he;s a tall guy and thats not great for acting character! where as other actos ive seen are unrecognisable.
im not saying he cant act, or could be succesfull, im just saying he fills an acting hole. but he ismost definitely not as versatile as people are making out, from what weve seen so far.
I may be jealous, but that doesnt change my opinion of his acting.
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 4:03pm
Post #40 of 56
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You really are in denial, balbo, LOL!
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You cannot see the evidence when its set out before you so clearly. If you just said that you don't like RA's portrayal of Thorin, then fair enough. I'm not completely happy with MF's protrayal of Bilbo, which makes me out with the out crowd too, I expect.
But, you're basically saying that all the critics are wrong, that the evidence of those readings is wrong, that the award he won for his reading was wrongly given and that, most insultingly, we think he's good because of our hormones!! I haven't heard a sexist remark on here like that for some time and it sounds like trolling. You're out of step and out of time and are either very old or very young or live under a bridge. My husband has listened to all his audiobooks and thinks they're spectacularly good. Is he hormonal too?
Yorkshire accent? Well, if you're referring to his narrative voice, it is straight RP (although a narrator is entitled to choose any accent he wishes because he's not a character.) But, his own accent comes from Leicester, not Yorkshire. Or are you referring to the jester - and that's a Midlands/Birmingham accent, which suits the character really well. I just don't understand that piece of pointless criticism.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Feb 1 2015, 4:10pm
Post #41 of 56
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My goodness, did Dr. Who just take us back to the 50's?
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"i think it may be peoples hormones that may have an influence his perceived acting prowess."
___________________________________
I haven't heard THAT one in awhile.
But of course, everyone knows that women can't think when their hormones are raging. Time for us to go back to our kitchens and let the men tell us what our opinions should be.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 4:13pm
Post #42 of 56
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ok my bad but its hard to tell, its like a camp lancashire accent going into yorkshire for one of the characters! its not clear.
but tell me why is it called hamletporn if hormones have nothing to do with it? lets be honest thorins succes is less to do with acting and more the whole package, pun intended, and for alot of thorin fans that is a key factor when sticking up for his acting chops on here. to dismiss sean bean over RA is both wrong and one sided. for reasons already stated.
evidence, these are just opinions, why is it that some peoples opinions are allowed on here, but others are shot down by the same few people to the point where they have to have the last word!
(This post was edited by balbo biggins on Feb 1 2015, 4:17pm)
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smtfhw
Lorien
Feb 1 2015, 5:07pm
Post #43 of 56
(864 views)
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On stage playting Macbeth and he wasn't exactly impressive, even once they'd shaved the play down to 2.5 hours.... Sorry but there you go. I also saw the Crucible last year with Richard Armitage and it was a stunning performance,
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Feb 1 2015, 5:09pm
Post #44 of 56
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It is those uttering such statements who display that they are, in fact, the ones who are 'hormonal'.
"i think it may be peoples hormones that may have an influence his perceived acting prowess."
___________________________________
I haven't heard THAT one in awhile.
But of course, everyone knows that women can't think when their hormones are raging. Time for us to go back to our kitchens and let the men tell us what our opinions should be.
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Starling
Half-elven
Feb 1 2015, 5:20pm
Post #45 of 56
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Bernard Hill in Boys from the Blackstuff
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is one of the greatest performances I have ever seen. People of my age group who saw it when it first screened on TV still reference it today.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 1 2015, 5:48pm
Post #46 of 56
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Adding "LOL" does not mitigate the insult. Please stick to disagreeing with what someone has said and don't attribute personal motivation, thanks. Further posts like this will be removed and the person making the post could be subject to warnings.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Feb 1 2015, 5:51pm
Post #47 of 56
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…I've only seen Hill in a couple of TV performances (apart from LotR), and 'Boys' didn't particularly appeal to me in terms of the story line, so I haven't seen it. Thus from what I have seen of him, he didn't impress me that much – not as much as, say, Sir Ian McKellen, Benedict Cumberbatch, Richard Armitage, Ken Stott or Tom Hiddlestone, who I think are all outstanding and versatile actors.
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smtfhw
Lorien
Feb 1 2015, 6:11pm
Post #48 of 56
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Just as a PS: actually, I do love Bernard Hill and he definitely has a range that SB hasn't. Loved him in Boys from the Black Stuff and LotR and am now watching him in the new Tudor drama, Wolf Hall.
Very true...
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Feb 1 2015, 6:49pm
Post #49 of 56
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I think it's when you look at the big picture
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that you see that the overarching theme of fall, repentance, and redemption in TH (especially the book), I think. The fall can be a "simplistic" greed like Thorin's, or the moral ambiguity of (book)Bilbo's choice to take the Arkenstone, but the repentance and redemption is there just as much for Bilbo as it is for Thorin. That story of fall, repentance, and redemption is a theme descriptive of the essence of Christianity, if anything is.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Kirly
Lorien
Feb 1 2015, 8:29pm
Post #50 of 56
(818 views)
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I really appreciate your answer. Thank you!
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My avatar photo is Lake Tekapo in New Zealand's South Island. Taken by me in 2004 on a Red Carpet Tours LOTR Movie Location Tour. 'Twas the Vacation of a Lifetime!
pictures taken while on the tour are here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/Kirly7/LOTRNewZealandTour#
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Don't worry, Elarie
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