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Did Arwen have to die?
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Maciliel
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 2:40am

Post #51 of 64 (1509 views)
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even though elrond chose to be counted amongst elven-kind [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My post #11 said there was no mixing of races between Elrond and Celebrian as Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind. (You probably misread, or I wasn’t clear.)

I then listed a half dozen mixing of races: Men, Elves, and Maiar (which included Elwing and Earendil who begat Elrond and Elros).

Why would I want to kick myself?? Crazy



even though elrond chose to be counted amongst elven-kind, that did not change his dna. it did not change the composition of his hroa.

his mortal genes would indeed be inherited by his three children.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 2:48am

Post #52 of 64 (1510 views)
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there are still two others [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Aragorn himself begged Arwen to go as he was ready to die, but she said that no ship would carry her; no doubt Cirdan's mariners would recognize her and refuse her passage. She also tells Frodo that she will not be making that journey, and hints that he might.

Legolas sails not long after Aragorn dies; for an Elf length of time is irrelevant, although the text strongly implies that he leaves as soon as he can, since it was only the love of Aragorn (and Gimli, perhaps) that he tarried in Middle Earth after his experience with the seagulls. He is also an Elf without any modifications or magic conditions, so there is no question of his sailing. Arwen is loaded with prophecy and choices made, she could never possibly sail to the West.

Arwen and her brothers are part of the Children of Luthien, of whom she is the last to make a choice between Elf and Man. It started with Beren and Luthien (who died mortal) , and their descendants have been Elf, Man and even part-Maia. One supposes that this choice of Arwen seals the fate of the Children of Luthien, with no more half-bloods. She has in fact taken the choice of Elros, which will change her into a human being, albeit one with longer life than normal.


luthien is not the last... there are still two others yet to make a choice... elrohir and elladan.

elladan's name means "elf-man" (or "star-man"). i have mused on this being perhaps a clue as to his possible choice.... choosing the fate of the edain.

elrohir's choice, of course, is to be counted among the rohirrim, and will eventually marry shadowfax.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 2:58am

Post #53 of 64 (1496 views)
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fairies = "fearies" // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 3:04am

Post #54 of 64 (1500 views)
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the valar deemed it unnatural [In reply to] Can't Post

 
the valar deemed it unnatural for an elven fea to be houseless for long. it's natural state was to be with a hroa, which is why death was, in part, seemed to be so unnatural, and why miriel's choice (at first) to remain unhoused was also deemed unnatural.

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Meneldor
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 3:19am

Post #55 of 64 (1504 views)
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Whoa! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To


elrohir's choice, of course, is to be counted among the rohirrim, and will eventually marry shadowfax.

There's other internet pages for that kinda thing! Shocked


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Maciliel
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 3:32am

Post #56 of 64 (1498 views)
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hey, i didn't [In reply to] Can't Post

 
hey, i didn't say the marriage would be consummated. : )


cheers : )

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 31 2015, 7:13am

Post #57 of 64 (1497 views)
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Excellent & important points.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 








Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 1:25pm

Post #58 of 64 (1492 views)
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Well, um, er . . . Hmm. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Apparently not as it seems his children were considered Peredhil also and had the “Choice”.
*BG blushes* Blush


In Reply To
even though elrond chose to be counted amongst elven-kind, that did not change his dna. it did not change the composition of his hroa.

his mortal genes would indeed be inherited by his three children.





squire
Half-elven


Jan 31 2015, 3:38pm

Post #59 of 64 (1488 views)
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I don't think these people have 'dna' or 'genes' in the sense that we use these terms. [In reply to] Can't Post

The pre-modern terminology of "blood" seems more correct. It connotes the idea that some parts of what we now call genetic heritage, or dna, are more privileged than other parts. Thus noble blood, male blood, fair or blond blood, and Elven blood is better and more significant in reckoning individual worth or capacity than common blood, female blood, dark-skinned or brown-haired blood, or Mortal blood. This, of course, is both coherent with most northern European mythologies and more modern brands of racism, and is completely contradictory to everything we know about actual genetics and human biology - which, to Tolkien, is entirely the point of his fantasy. It's simply not about what we call 'biology' (which he knew and understood perfectly well at a 1940's level, when the rules of genetics had been identified but were not yet linked to the actual mechanism of the dna molecule).
'the blood of Númenor is in us' (Faramir),
'the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him' (Gandalf referring to Denethor)
'the son of the King, of the blood of Tuor and Eärendil' (Aldarion speaking of himself)
'from these brethren alone has come among Men the blood of the Firstborn and a strain of the spirits divine that were before Arda' (Silmarillion on Elros and Elrond)
Note the use of 'strain' rather than 'blood' to describe the nature of the otherworldly Maia Melian's contribution to the Numenorean bloodline. It seems to mean some level of inheritance that is significantly less important than 'blood'.

Another similar and useful term in discussing heritable characteristics in Middle-earth is kin. It seems to be used to refer to entire families, tribes, or nations who share a blood-relationship, whether through a superior or inferior mating.
'Then we are akin from afar.' (Arwen upon meeting Aragorn)
'they accounted themselves kinsmen of the kings of Gondor descended from Eldacar' (The folk of Eorl before they came south to Rohan)
'Am I not now kin of the king? For Beren son of Barahir was grandson of Bregor, as was my father also.' (Morwen speaking to Hurin)
'The kin of Erendis have not the length of life that is granted to the descendants of Elros' (Aldarion's mother, considering her son's proposed wife).
It's interesting that, since Tolkien uses 'race' to refer to physically distinct anthropoid types like Men, Elves, Dwarves, Hobbits, etc., he can't use it as well for sub-groups within each type, and uses instead words like blood and kin as shown, and also 'folk', 'tribe', and 'people'. All these terms are quite fuzzy and non-scientific to modern ears, but are also easily understood and arouse the same emotions in the reader that they did in earlier generations of epic audiences. On the other hand, to use terms like dna and genes to explain these relationships and inheritances seems to me to make Tolkien's stories less understandable, not more.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Maciliel
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 3:48pm

Post #60 of 64 (1491 views)
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not understanding what you're trying to say... [In reply to] Can't Post

 
hi brace --

not understanding what you're trying to say...

what you stated actually supports what i stated -- elrond's children inherited their father's dna, which included edain dna... thus, they also inherited the choice of whither their fear (souls) went.... either choose to have their souls counted amongst the elves or edain.


cheers --


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 3:54pm

Post #61 of 64 (1488 views)
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tolkien has to be bound by some biology [In reply to] Can't Post

 
tolkien has to be bound by some biology... humans have dna. he considered elves and the edain essentially one race. elves must be housed in some sort of dna to interbreed with edain.

yes, this may have been of less interest to him than the poetic "blood" and "kinship," but even people who have never heard of dna or who have not inhabited a point in history in which dna was recognized do recognize that some sort of physical inheritance is at work when individuals come together to produce offspring.

i am particularly curious about the fate of dior. he was either half-elven/half-edain or wholly edain (depending on whether luthien's fea was rehoused in a hroa of the eldar or a hroa of the edain).

dior died before he made a choice (if he had one). one might assume that he could have made a choice and we never heard about it, but that seems unlikely, given the attention that tolkien paid to all the peredhil. so why nothing about doir's fate? seems like that was something overlooked.

tolkien scholars... any word as to dior's ultimate fate?


cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

(This post was edited by Maciliel on Jan 31 2015, 3:57pm)


squire
Half-elven


Jan 31 2015, 4:39pm

Post #62 of 64 (1484 views)
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He agreed with that, but argued that his 'biology' was not ours but was mostly a literary metaphor [In reply to] Can't Post

I have always been staggered by his perspicacity on questions like this. That is, he did not ignore such problems but tried to deal with them to the point where he felt he could go on writing. Take his famous comments on this question that we are debating, in his letter 153 (Sept. 1954):
I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological — which worry me just as much as the theological and metaphysical (though you do not seem to mind them so much). Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Eärendil. But since some have held that the rate of longevity is a biological characteristic, within limits of variation, you could not have Elves in a sense 'immortal' – not eternal, but not dying by 'old age' — and Men mortal, more or less as they now seem to be in the Primary World – and yet sufficiently akin. I might answer that this 'biology' is only a theory, that modern 'gerontology', or whatever they call it, finds 'ageing' rather more mysterious, and less clearly inevitable in bodies of human structure. But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world. It is only (as yet) an incompletely imagined world, a rudimentary 'secondary'; but if it pleased the Creator to give it (in a corrected form) Reality on any plane, then you would just have to enter it and begin studying its different biology, that is all.
But as it is — though it seems to have grown out of hand, so that parts seem (to me) rather revealed through me than by me – its purpose is still largely literary (and, if you don't boggle at the term, didactic). Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this 'history', because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. They have certain freedoms and powers we should like to have, and the beauty and peril and sorrow of the possession of these things is exhibited in them. ....

I think Dior did not make a "choice" in the sense of answering an edict of the Valar (or Eru) any more than Luthien, Earendil, or Elwing did. The whole idea of a deliberate choice between being "accounted" of the Eldar or Edain, as given to the so-called peredhil, applies only to the sons of Earendil, Elros and Elrond. Then because of the way the story worked out in The Lord of the Rings, Elrond's children as well got that choice. Or at least, Arwen did, which I assume was mostly a literary decision by Tolkien, so he could end his legend-cycle with a recapitulation of the Beren/Luthien story; we never really hear much about Elladan and Elrohir. We hear about what Tolkien was interested in exploring, and this being fantasy, consistency in any kind of scientific, historical or rational sense was not always his primary goal.

After all, why should Elrond's children get that choice, since both Elrond and Celebrian are supposed to be Elvish? And as you say, if Luthien returned from death as a mortal, why then would her descendants be said to have a strain of her Elvish or Maian ancestry? To be sure, as you say, the rules of heritability have been vaguely known long before the unlocking of dna, but those rules were also misunderstood for all kinds of social, cultural, and emotional reasons (think patriarchy, primogeniture, racism, etc.). In Tolkien's story, we might say, they are being misunderstood for literary or artistic reasons. It's in the nature of his artistic approach that these misunderstandings mimic, but not completely, the more traditional cultural ones of his own ancestral world.

(I think Tolkien gives himself the same freedom to speculate on the nature of immortality and mortality in his fantasy, when he deliberately invents new terms for 'soul' and 'body' so that he can challenge the real world's theological or psychological understanding of those terms whenever he needs to for his own purposes.)



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 8:46pm

Post #63 of 64 (1505 views)
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Thanks Maciliel ... [In reply to] Can't Post

for the chance to make myself clear (I hope).

Apparently not as it seems his children were considered Peredhil also and had the “Choice”.
*BG blushes*

My “apparently not” was in response to your statement that his dna did not change. So it's apparently his dna did not change (agreement). Baaaad Bracegirdle! Unclear Bracegirdle! Back in your hole Bracegirdle! Mad


Quote
even though elrond chose to be counted amongst elven-kind, that did not change his dna. it did not change the composition of his hroa.
his mortal genes would indeed be inherited by his three children.


Sorry for the misunderstanding and totally incomprehensible thought process; Tongue I am in COMPLETE agreement. SmileSmile




(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Jan 31 2015, 8:48pm)


Beleg Strongbow Cuthalion
Bree


Apr 8 2015, 8:00pm

Post #64 of 64 (1306 views)
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To relieve... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that Arwen could possibly have remained in Gondor "close to the throne as an advisor". That would revive her eternal longing for Aragorn and she couldn't have lasted without marrying him, I think.

No offence meant, but what, to a lover, is more lovely and appealing than marriage? If you're going to wait until the mortal you love is dead your lingering in Middle-earth would totally have been in vain and you would have wasted so many years of peace in Valinor. =)

Yes, Elrond definitely could have let Arwen stay, but it was her choice and she decided to die. Really sad, you get to that conclusion without even thinking about it!

~"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” ― Gandalf the Grey~


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