|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Miss-Merriweather
Bree
Jan 31 2015, 1:57pm
Post #1 of 18
(1741 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thorin / Gandalf: missing scenes or permanent plot hole?
|
Can't Post
|
|
Another question that worries me:
Thorin doesn't see nor hear anything from Gandalf between the moment Gandalf leaves the Dwarves at Mirkwood gate and the moment when Gandalf turns up among what Thorin by then considers his "enemies" before the gates of Erebor.
Yet Thorin doesn't seem very surprised to see Gandalf again.
And Gandalf makes no attempt to meet with Thorin, to explain what has happened to him in the meantime, to tell Thorin about his father....
Worst of all, Gandalf does nothing to cure and lift the spell from Thorin with some of his magic mantra mumbling (which worked fine before on both Thorin and Thrain).
It feels as if Gandalf has, to some extend, lost interest in the Dwarves and their quest.
Which wouldn't make any sense at all.
Did anyone find a hint at more Thorin / Gandalf footage in the EE?
Or is this a plot hole in the script itself, and we'll have to live with it...?
|
|
|
Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 31 2015, 2:03pm
Post #2 of 18
(1207 views)
Shortcut
|
I think Gandalf hardly had the opportunity to meet Thorin again on a personal level. They were too far away from each other in terms of the events to meet.
That Thorin 'doesn't seem very surprised to see Gandalf again' is no surprise to me. Why should he seem surprised? Gandalf is a wizard and can appear anywhere at any time.
I don't think this is any kind of 'plothole', personally.
Next? 
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jan 31 2015, 2:12pm
Post #3 of 18
(1149 views)
Shortcut
|
|
How do you contrast this with the book?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It seems ver similar to me. In both Thorin is in the midst of his sickness. In neither does he express surprise or ask Gandalf about where he has been or what he has been doing. In neither does Gandalf seek to meet with him separately.
I don't think we are supposed to understand Thorin's sickness as a "spell" which can be lifted (there is no Sauron or Saruman behind it, either). Instead it is a manifestation of his greed and founded in the psychological and moral, rather than the magical. Certainly, Thorin is no wizard and yet "cures" himself - so I don't think the spell idea seems to be the intent.
|
|
|
Miss-Merriweather
Bree
Jan 31 2015, 2:13pm
Post #4 of 18
(1125 views)
Shortcut
|
I think Gandalf hardly had the opportunity to meet Thorin again on a personal level. They were too far away from each other in terms of the events to meet.
But how about a little extra effort to save Thorin?
After all it was Gandalf who talked him into this whole reclaim-your-homeland-do-it-NOW thing!
|
|
|
dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 31 2015, 2:19pm
Post #5 of 18
(1106 views)
Shortcut
|
|
If that's a plot hole, it's Tolkien's....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
(It isn't a plot hole)
Thorin isn't supposed to see or hear anything of Gandalf between those two points in the story - and my impression is that he was taken aback by Gandalf's arrival. That's certainly what stops him from throwing Bilbo over the wall and gives the other dwarves a chance to spirit Bilbo away.
In those circumstances it would be rather hard for Gandalf to have a private chat with Thorin, who has barricaded himself inside the Mountain, crown firmly placed on head. Try to see it from Thorin's point of view: Gandalf set the whole expedition in motion, then took off at the edge of Mirkwood leaving the dwarves to fend for themselves. He didn't turn up at the overlook to help them find their way into the Mountain. So for Thorin, Gandalf's appearance with Thranduil and Bard is just one more betrayal.
As for magic, Gandalf isn't a magician. He doesn't have a spell to cure every ill. They showed him waking Thorin from unconsciousness and calming Thrain; that certainly doesn't mean he flits round Middle Earth curing everyone and fixing everything. But his comment to Thorin along the lines of 'you're not making a very splendid figure as King under the Mountain' probably had a lot more effect than you suppose...
There is no plot hole, so no need - or even opportunity that I can see - for a meeting between Gandalf and Thorin before Gandalf's appearance before the gate. And it's a bit late for Gandalf to pass on Thrain's warning to Thorin not to go near the Mountain. But as for the 'tell Thorin I loved him', as they've put that into the script it may be that Gandalf has the chance to say it to Thorin before the end. He may, he may not - we'll see.
|
|
|
arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 31 2015, 2:22pm
Post #6 of 18
(1066 views)
Shortcut
|
I feel quite certain that at the barricade, after Thorin attempt to kill Bilbo, they will have a longer exchange in the EE. This is because in the gold floor scene, one of the last, most impoprtant memories Thorin processes is a statement by Gandalf that he has not made anywhere in the TE of Bo5A, or in the T/EEs of the other two films. So my own conclusion is that he will say it in the EE. It would fit with a conversation that also mentions Thrain.
That said, it is not a hint of a separate scene with Gandalf at an earlier time. Personally, I do not see the plot hole you reference. Gandalf arrives the day before the Elves and Men plan to do battle with the Dwarves. We should recall that while he does seem to have a fondness for Thrain and Thorin and the Dwarves his underlying reason for involvement here is to prevent a takeover of the North by the armies of Sauron, one of which he knows is on the march already. He urgently needs Thranduil to drop his plans to make war on Thorin and instead prepare for a major battle against Azog's forces. So he spends the night in that camp and presents himself, with them, at Thorin's gate so that he could influence the course of the negotiations. (As he does, by saving Bilbo. He fails to persuade anyone to his point of view, until the Orcs he has been warning of actually arrive).
If you do find my above guess convincing, it would suggest whatever Gandalf says does play a role in enabling Thorin to throw off th dragon sickness.
(This post was edited by arithmancer on Jan 31 2015, 2:25pm)
|
|
|
swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 31 2015, 4:28pm
Post #7 of 18
(992 views)
Shortcut
|
... I think that was Tolkien's intent, to show the results of greed, and to show it as a moral struggle within Thorin.
And Gandalf is a sort of Guide, a Spirit Guide if you will, not a D&D style 3697239th level Fighter-Magic User Who You Get To Knock Down the Door and Blow Away the Dragon. He sort of points the ordinary folk down the right path, if they listen up.
Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mżl 'lain nallol, I sūl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...
|
|
|
Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 31 2015, 11:14pm
Post #8 of 18
(884 views)
Shortcut
|
You expected Gandalf to bring up Thrain in the theatrical cut?
|
|
|
sycorax82
Rohan
Feb 1 2015, 4:06am
Post #9 of 18
(866 views)
Shortcut
|
|
We should see him mention Thrain in the EE
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The scene where Gandalf addresses Thorin at the gates of Erebor will most likely be extended with a few lines added about Thrain. Most likely something along the lines of 'what would your father think of you? I found him alive in Dol Guldur. He told me to tell you that he loved you. I wonder, would he be proud of what you're becoming now?'
|
|
|
Pandallo
Rivendell
Feb 1 2015, 4:29am
Post #10 of 18
(844 views)
Shortcut
|
Quite legitimate. I had pictured it as a fair amount of a longer back and forth between the two. But that actually sounds about right.
|
|
|
[STARS}TyranT
The Shire
Feb 1 2015, 6:57pm
Post #11 of 18
(774 views)
Shortcut
|
That sounds spot on to what I think will happen too. They wont let that plot thread go unanswered.
(Well hopefully not anyway)
|
|
|
mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien
Feb 2 2015, 5:43pm
Post #12 of 18
(687 views)
Shortcut
|
So impatient some people are
I have seen the movie 83 times now and I am sure that we can and may consider it just a very very long trailer for the Extended Edition
Nothing more.. nothing less..
Relax a bit and you will see all later this year
(This post was edited by mirkwoodwanderer on Feb 2 2015, 5:43pm)
|
|
|
Ilmatar
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 6:11pm
Post #13 of 18
(679 views)
Shortcut
|
Why do you keep posting this same text in several threads? I think everyone got the message 
|
|
|
Ilmatar
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 7:10pm
Post #14 of 18
(645 views)
Shortcut
|
I didn't mean to sound snappy. Just got momentarily irritated when checking new posts there were three or so identical ones. But never mind.
I agree with many in this thread that Gandalf didn't really have a chance to address Thorin before appearing at the gates of Erebor, but like Miss-Merriweather says, it would have been nice if he showed some effort to save Thorin in the end, instead of fighting some ordinary orcs. But his success in that effort would have been against the book canon, so...  And I'm not sure if Thorin would have welcomed outside help in his duel with his arch enemy.
(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Feb 2 2015, 7:14pm)
|
|
|
Avandel
Half-elven
Feb 2 2015, 9:50pm
Post #15 of 18
(633 views)
Shortcut
|
But how about a little extra effort to save Thorin?
After all it was Gandalf who talked him into this whole reclaim-your-homeland-do-it-NOW thing! Just rip my band-aid off . Canon aside for a moment, IMO it would have been LOGICAL for Bilbo, who had seen Gandalf heal, and whose first action when Fili & co. reach Erebor is to try
to stop them "We need to leave...it's this place...a sickness lies upon him..." - LOGICAL that Bilbo would say something to Gandalf, and certainly after putting Bilbo to bed as it were,
it would be logical for Gandalf to go to Erebor and try to talk to Thorin that night (tho granted Gandalf might be tired, but then again he is "Maiar, spirits of the same order as the Valar, but lesser in power...")
Instead in the TE we have for me a rather jarring scenario (when I think about it) of Gandalf warning Bilbo about how dangerous Thorin might be, but it doesn't occur to the wise wizard
"who started this, and can't forsake them" to trot over to Erebor? The wizard who faced off against the Necromancer?
The EE. Well, perhaps there will be some sort of "bridge" scene with Gandalf and Thorin, in that in the gold room hallucination scene the last voice Thorin hears is Gandalf saying something
about the treasure being his death. Different than AUJ's "your pride will be your downfall". IMO "hallucination" lines don't have to match lines we have already heard in the films, as one
could expect Thorin's mind to be very confused at this point.
But PERHAPS "this treasure will be your death" is a real line of a scene we may or may not ever see, or maybe it was just a voice recording - who knows at this point, except PJ & the actors
and WETA? I personally am wary of the EE, as often what I consider important ends up not being what PJ considers important (tho I did get my beloved dwarf/Beorn intro and white stag scenes
in the DOS EE as well as the dwarves at Laketown )
LOL I don't think we are supposed to ask questions like this. Like I am not supposed to keep asking why Thranduil didn't go after Legolas with a whole bunch of elven warriors. Um.
Tho some of us in the River of Denial thoughtfully FIX what are simply OVERSIGHTS, along with having healthful fruit drinks.
|
|
|
Avandel
Half-elven
Feb 2 2015, 10:24pm
Post #16 of 18
(627 views)
Shortcut
|
This dragon sickness IMO is interesting re "a strain of madness runs in that family" which to me implies genetics - a physical thing - and it doesn't seem to have happened to Thrain, but Thrain re the films did not carry a ring of power for long. I would also argue that for a dwarf to love and covet fine metals and gems is an inherent part of their being, much like any other race has certain characteristics inherent to who and what they are - like elves being naturally light-footed and quick.
Beorn describes the dwarves as "greedy" and arrogant in a fashion, but are they really? Or are they being judged by "human" standards - conversely, Bilbo finds the "world of men" to overwhelming at first (it probably is by hobbit standards), and Thorin doesn't seem to think a lot of the messy bustle of Laketown. E.g, some judgements may depend on what side of the fence you are standing on, and what race you belong to.
(Tho it's obvious re the film that both Thror and Thorin's behavior is crossing the line, by dwarf standards .)
So IMO Gandalf in theory making an attempt to heal Thorin IMO is an interesting concept - Gandalf healed Thorin re a physical beating. If dragon sickness is at least partly physical (genetic) would an Istari have that much power? On a psychological level, it does seem to me that it's Gandalf's voice piercing Thorin's mental state to some degree, so that it causes Thorin to let go of Bilbo at the wall. And Thorin hears Gandalf's voice in his mind - so, if Gandalf had tried, or a being like Elrond had tried, could the dragon sickness be cured? Think these things will be left open questions (and not everything HAS to be answered) but it's intriguing.
As you point out, Thorin is able to beat back the sickness, tho I would imagine it would never be wholly safe for him, without some sort of healing, to remain at Erebor, assuming that this "strain of madness" is passed along the family - and perhaps Kili and Fili might have been susceptible as well.
Additional notes from the Tolkien Gateway!
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Dwarves
The Dwarves were created by Aulė to be strong, resistant to fire and the evils of Morgoth. They were hardier than any other race, secretive, stubborn, and steadfast in enmity or loyalty. They were generally less corruptible than Men. When Sauron attempted to enslave the Free Folk of Middle-earth using the Rings of Power, the Elves completely resisted his power (indeed, his hand had never sullied the Three Rings), while the Nine Rings utterly corrupted the Men who bore them into the Ringwraiths. In contrast, the Dwarves were sturdy and resistant enough that Sauron was not able to dominate them using the Seven Rings. At most, the Seven Rings sowed strife among the Dwarves and filled their wearers with an insatiable greed for gold, but they did not turn them into wraiths subservient to the Dark Lord, and he considered his plan to have failed. Sauron was furious at the Dwarves' resistance, spurring his drive to recapture the Seven Rings from them. Despite being 4.5 - 5 feet (1.35 - 1.52 m) tall, they were known for their strength and endurance in battle, as well as their fury, particularly when avenging their fallen kin, and for being some of the greatest warriors in all of Middle-earth. Of old the Elves believed that the Dwarves would have no future in Arda Unmarred, but the Dwarves themselves held to a promise that Ilśvatar would hallow them and adopt them as his Children. They maintained that after death Aulė (Mahal) cared for them, gathering them to the Halls of Mandos with the other Children of Ilśvatar, though in halls set apart. It is said that after the Last Battle they will work alongside Aulė in the remaking of Arda. [12] |
|
|
Ilmatar
Rohan
Feb 2 2015, 10:49pm
Post #17 of 18
(603 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Interesting thoughts, even if we never get an answer...!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Also, it's not just any old gold in Erebor, but "gold that a dragon has brooded upon", and that has made it more dangerous than ordinary gold. So even if the line of Durin could mentally/psychologically be cured of the hereditary predisposition, would they still be in danger of dragon sickness, simply because of there having been a dragon? I remember Gandalf saying to Bilbo that all are in danger of catching dragon sickness from such gold (with the exception of Bilbo himself, it seems) - but doesn't that put Dain under threat as well?
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Feb 2 2015, 11:19pm
Post #18 of 18
(615 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I think that would play oddly with the moral of the tale
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Which at its simplest and crudest is that greed is bad. Tolkien does not give dwarves a free pass for this moral failing, simply noting that they are particularly susceptible (and links this to the evil of the Rings in the appendices of LOTR).
I can't see that it would be a good fit to suggest that a moral failing can be "cured" by magic (indeed I think it would be rather a dark act in Tolkien's world to excercise control over another person's mind to influence their moral choices).
Certainly we see no examples of Gandalf "curing" anyone of Ring lust in LOTR, "curing" Thorin in the text, curing Denethor etc. I think these are instead part of overtly moral stories which set such responsibility outside the wave of a magic wand.
|
|
|
|
|
a few thoughts/speculation
[