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Difference between Beleriand and Middle Earth

Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Jan 31 2015, 12:14pm

Post #1 of 19 (1661 views)
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Difference between Beleriand and Middle Earth Can't Post

What's the major difference between these two contintents? Was Beleriand a more Lorien-Rivendell ish type of lands because of the high population of elves during the first age? I always pictured Beleriand as a mini Valinor lands.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 31 2015, 1:14pm

Post #2 of 19 (1555 views)
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They were a single continent. [In reply to] Can't Post

Beleriand was simply the westernmost part of Middle-earth, between the Blue Mountains and the sea. Beleriand was devastated in the War of Wrath in the First Age and most of it sank under the sea except for parts of Lindon.

Now, Harad seems to have been a continent in it's own right, corresponding to modern Africa. In addition, there was an uninhabited land to the east of Middle-earth.



"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Jan 31 2015, 2:46pm

Post #3 of 19 (1546 views)
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Difference between continent and Middle Earth [In reply to] Can't Post

Was Middle Earth itself a continent or was Middle Earth the part of Arda that was not Valinor.

To me, all of the continents were part of Middle Earth (including Harad) as long as they were not in Valinor or the Holy Lands. But my geography might be wrong.


Meneldor
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 6:01pm

Post #4 of 19 (1491 views)
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OS, I love this map! [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you know anything about it?

In Reply To



They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 31 2015, 6:49pm

Post #5 of 19 (1488 views)
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Good question! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Was Middle Earth itself a continent or was Middle Earth the part of Arda that was not Valinor.

To me, all of the continents were part of Middle Earth (including Harad) as long as they were not in Valinor or the Holy Lands. But my geography might be wrong.



Citing Robert Foster's The Complete Guide to Middle-earth, I would have to say that 'Middle-earth' specifically means the lands of Arda that extend from the Gulf of Lune to the Inner Seas in the East, including the Northern Wastes and the lands of Harad in the South (and including Beleriand in the First Age).

Aman (the Undying Lands) was once part of Arda, as was the Isle of Numenor. The maritime explorations of the Numenoreans included the Dark Land between the Inner Seas and the East Sea and the continent beyond where could be found the mountain range called the Walls of the Sun. After the Change of the World when Numenor sank and Aman was removed from Arda, other new lands arose in the West.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 31 2015, 6:57pm

Post #6 of 19 (1486 views)
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Based on drawings by Tolkien. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
OS, I love this map! Do you know anything about it?



Tolkien's drawings and sketches of Arda can be found in HOME Vol. IV: The Shaping of Middle-earth. Karen Wynn Fonstad made good use of them in the revised edition of The Atlas of Middle-earth. Click on the picture below for a larger image:



"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 31 2015, 6:58pm)


HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Feb 1 2015, 1:40am

Post #7 of 19 (1459 views)
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Very intersting points [In reply to] Can't Post

It would have been very insightful to know how the peoples of the Far East and South considered themselves. Did they view themselves as part of Middle Earth? Did they have a different mythology?

I wish Tolkien had pushed himself a bit further and addressed the way the other peoples of Middle Earth thought. But maybe that would have ruined what he created. Sometimes it's best to leave good enough alone, no?


squire
Half-elven


Feb 1 2015, 1:53am

Post #8 of 19 (1466 views)
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Tolkien called it the attraction of 'unexplained vistas' [In reply to] Can't Post

He always worried that when he played the "vast game" of world building, he was torn between his own temptation as a scientist and cataloguer to answer questions like you have asked here (about the other continents in Arda) and his literary instincts: that a story-world about which all facts are known and recorded is an ultimately uninteresting place.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell


Feb 1 2015, 2:33am

Post #9 of 19 (1457 views)
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Agreed... [In reply to] Can't Post

By not filling in the blanks, he allowed us to do it for him. Much more fun Wink


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 1 2015, 3:21am

Post #10 of 19 (1465 views)
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Easterlings and Southrons [In reply to] Can't Post

It is unfortunate that the only Men of the East or South that we encountered in the legendarium were those Easterlings or Haradrim who were invading the north-west lands we are familiar with. It might be interesting to discover that there was a civilization in the Far East or distant South of Middle-earth that could rival Arnor or Gondor at its peak. However, Sauron's influence on those lands makes this seem unlikely.

At least up to the start of the Fourth Age, the lands beyond Middle-earth proper were alleged to be uninhabited. However, if Professor Tolkien had given it more thought, he might have decided that the Numenoreans had established one or more colonies or outposts in those regions.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Feb 1 2015, 4:46am

Post #11 of 19 (1482 views)
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I still remember the shock... [In reply to] Can't Post

...of looking carefully at the map of Beleriand and realizing with a shock that Ered Luin and Eriador were on the map, but with half a continent to the west of them! Before, I had assumed that Beleriand was another place, somehow. And it took quite a lot of reading before I found out what happened.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Feb 1 2015, 4:47am)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Feb 1 2015, 11:47am

Post #12 of 19 (1448 views)
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Beleriand [In reply to] Can't Post

But Beleriand had a higher population of elves than Middle Earth, so most of the lands were very divine like Lorien or Rivendell? Maybe a little closer to what we can imagine of Valinor?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 1 2015, 2:31pm

Post #13 of 19 (1438 views)
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Noldor were not at their best. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But Beleriand had a higher population of elves than Middle Earth, so most of the lands were very divine like Lorien or Rivendell? Maybe a little closer to what we can imagine of Valinor?



The Elves who never crossed over into Aman would not have had an aura of divinity (?) about them and the returning Noldor were on a mission of vengeance. So Bereiand saw a lot of drama and melodrama and not much in the way of euphoria--at least beyond the protection of the Girdle of Melian (while it lasted).

So, there was not any special sense of holiness about Beleriand. Maybe nostalgia in the later Ages.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Feb 1 2015, 5:47pm

Post #14 of 19 (1435 views)
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Elven strongholds [In reply to] Can't Post

Strongholds like Doriath and Gondolin, would have been very Lothlorien like? The ethereal atmosphere that Galadriel has around her everytime she appears.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 1 2015, 5:54pm

Post #15 of 19 (1434 views)
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Maybe? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Strongholds like Doriath and Gondolin, would have been very Lothlorien like? The ethereal atmosphere that Galadriel has around her everytime she appears.



At least to some extent. Those Elves did not have any of the Three Elven Rings to help protect their realms, although the power of Melian, at least, was likely a pretty good substitute. And Gondolin was said to have been blessed by Ulmo, so it might have carried some of that ethereal atmosphere as well.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Feb 1 2015, 11:19pm

Post #16 of 19 (1403 views)
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maybe [In reply to] Can't Post

The places themselves probably didn't look much like Lothlorien though. Gondolin was basically an elvish Minas Tirith, and Thingol and Melian lived in a place similar to Thranduil's home.


Victariongreyjoy
Lorien


Feb 2 2015, 11:49pm

Post #17 of 19 (1383 views)
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Lothlorien like places in Beleriand [In reply to] Can't Post

So were there any places similar to the etheral Lothoriel in Beleriand?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Feb 3 2015, 2:13pm

Post #18 of 19 (1379 views)
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Lothoriel? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So were there any places similar to the etheral Lothoriel in Beleriand?



I am unfamiliar with Lothoriel and can find no reference to such a place. I think that your original question in regard to Lothlorien has been answered.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Feb 3 2015, 3:13pm

Post #19 of 19 (1414 views)
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In my own specualtions... [In reply to] Can't Post

These are the descendants of the Men who did not escape the Shadow of Morgoth. These were ensnared in Morgoth-worship, so I would imagine that they would have some kind of vestigial kind of religion based on that.

We know that it was a dark religion, and that under Sauron in Numenor, it incorporated human sacrifice.(That could have been political assassination, though.) In the Elder Days, we also know that the religion started as helpful and beneficial to Men, as Morgoth gave them knowledge and science. Later, he gave less and less, and actually began taking things and requiring tributes, or else he threatened to take their gifts away. He also threatened to kill them if they disobeyed.

If anything, I think it would be a dark belief, shrouded in fear of their god and his displeasure. Most of what we know if this is in the Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth in Volume X of the HoME series: Morgoth's Ring.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?

 
 

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