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**LotR I.7 – In the House of Tom Bombadil** 4. Wood, Water and Hill

squire
Half-elven


Jan 29 2015, 4:44am

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**LotR I.7 – In the House of Tom Bombadil** 4. Wood, Water and Hill Can't Post

Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!
By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow,
By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us!
Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!


‘He is the Master of wood, water, and hill.’

Today I want to explore the meanings of the second line of Tom’s verse: By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow. Goldberry repeats the first part of the phrase almost exactly.
A. Are Tom and Goldberry referring to the generic concepts of water, wood and hill, reed and willow? Or are they naming a specific Water, Wood, and Hill – do they have in mind an actual Reed, and the eponymous Willow?

It seems to me that these key words signify somehow the features of Tom Bombadil’s country – which Gandalf at the Council of Elrond calls ‘… a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them’. How does this chapter present or define this little land?

The Center
To start with, we have Tom’s house (discussed in an earlier post) and its immediate environs. The best description of this place is found at the end of the previous chapter:
They stepped out from the Forest, and found a wide sweep of grass welling up before them. The river, now small and swift, was leaping merrily down to meet them, glinting here and there in the light of the stars, which were already shining in the sky.
The grass under their feet was smooth and short, as if it had been mown or shaven. The eaves of the Forest behind were clipped, and trim as a hedge. The path was now plain before them, well-tended and bordered with stone. It wound up on to the top of a grassy knoll, now grey under the pale starry night; and there, still high above them on a further slope, they saw the twinkling lights of a house. Down again the path went, and then up again, up a long smooth hillside of turf, towards the light. Suddenly a wide yellow beam flowed out brightly from a door that was opened. There was Tom Bombadil’s house before them, up, down, under hill. Behind it a steep shoulder of the land lay grey and bare, and beyond that the dark shapes of the Barrow-downs stalked away into the eastern night.
LotR I.6

The next day the hobbits look back from the house to where they emerged from the wood:
Pippin looked out of the western window, down into a pool of mist. The Forest was hidden under a fog. … Near at hand was a flower-garden and a clipped hedge silver-netted, and beyond that grey shaven grass pale with dew-drops. LotR I.7

B. Why is the landscape around Tom’s house described with these words: mown, shaven, clipped, trim, tended, bordered, smooth, turf, bare, clipped, shaven?

C. Who does the clipping, etc.?

D. Where else in the book do we find contrasts between gardens and untamed nature?

I have always wondered if the sequence of landscapes in these three “Tom” chapters (cultivated hobbit-country, old-growth forest, willow-stream, barren downland) could be found in a particular corner of England, or was it a mashup of different places that Tolkien assembled for the story. Certainly the boundaries between them are pretty hard-edged, like chapter-endings and beginnings.
E. Does anyone know?

The minute Frodo gets into the house, he asks Goldberry the million-dollar question.
‘He is the Master of wood, water, and hill.’
‘Then all this strange land belongs to him?’
‘No indeed!’ she answered, and her smile faded. ‘That would indeed be a burden,’ she added in a low voice, as if to herself. ‘The trees and the grasses and all things growing or living in the land belong each to themselves. Tom Bombadil is the Master. No one has ever caught old Tom walking in the forest, wading in the water, leaping on the hill-tops under light and shadow. He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master.’

F. What does Goldberry mean, and why is she dismayed, by the idea that owning “this strange land” would be a burden?

Goldberry describes Tom as risking but warding off some threat or attack in the wood, in the water, and on the hill.
G. Who or what tries to “catch” Tom, or maybe other folk, in these landscapes?

H. Is Tom the Master because he has no fear, or does he have no fear because he is the Master?

Surrounded by Fear
‘Let us shut out the night!’ she said. ‘For you are still afraid, perhaps, of mist and tree-shadows and deep water, and untame things. Fear nothing! For tonight you are under the roof of Tom Bombadil.’
‘Heed no nightly noises! For nothing passes door and window here save moonlight and starlight and the wind off the hill-top.’
‘We guessed you’d come ere long down to the water: all paths lead that way, down to Withywindle. Old grey Willow-man, he’s a mighty singer; and it’s hard for little folk to escape his cunning mazes.’

I. Where is the zone of safety in Tom’s world: the clipped and trimmed landscape that surrounds his house, or just inside the house itself?

At the end of the book, Gandalf says he was the Enemy of Sauron, and as soon as the Dark Lord is done in, Gandalf departs Middle-earth. In the original ‘Adventures of Tom Bombadil’ poem, Tom undergoes a sequence of traps and threats by not just the willow but badgers and the river-daughter, ending with a barrow-wight invading his home. Needless to say, he triumphs over all of them, but the general impression is that the universe has put out a contract on him.
J. Could Tom even exist without the ‘nightly noises’ and ‘untame things’?

K. Why do so many illustrators portray Tom in all his cheerful foolery, but never put him in the context of the dark horrors that constitute so much of his little land?

Tom tells Frodo it was chance that saved the hobbits, although he and Goldberry knew they were coming. He says it’s “hard for little folk to escape” the willow’s lures.
L. How many hobbits have perished in the Old Forest, despite Tom’s uncertain guardianship?

The Bounds
We’ve seen that Tom’s house, maybe his yard, and Tom himself, seem to resemble the calm and fearless eye in a monstrous hurricane of nature gone to the Dark Side. How far out does the hurricane extend? What are the bounds to Tom’s world, that he has set and that only he can see? Let’s take a look in each direction.



Where is “Tom’s country” on this map?

West

As they listened, they began to understand the lives of the Forest, apart from themselves, indeed to feel themselves as the strangers where all other things were at home.

It was not called the Old Forest without reason, for it was indeed ancient, a survivor of vast forgotten woods; and in it there lived yet, ageing no quicker than the hills, the fathers of the fathers of trees, remembering times when they were lords. The countless years had filled them with pride and rooted wisdom, and with malice. But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow: his heart was rotten, but his strength was green; and he was cunning, and a master of winds, and his song and thought ran through the woods on both sides of the river. His grey thirsty spirit drew power out of the earth and spread like fine root-threads in the ground, and invisible twig-fingers in the air, till it had under its dominion nearly all the trees of the Forest from the Hedge to the Downs.


M. Is the comment about the hobbits beginning to understand the Forest on its own terms, an example of the “scientific” or “objective” viewpoint that Tom represents, or is an allegory for (as discussed in a previous post)?


N. Goldberry says Tom does not own the land; but does the Willow, through the “dominion” of its spirit, “own” the Old Forest and the Withywindle valley?


O. When the other ancient trees remember the times when they were lords, is that a reference to the days before Men and Hobbits appeared to challenge the forests, or is it a reference to the time before the Great Willow took them under his control?


[Tom] appeared already to know much about them and all their families, and indeed to know much of all the history and doings of the Shire down from days hardly remembered among the hobbits themselves.

P. Is the Shire part of Tom’s country, within his “bounds”?


South
Each year at summer’s end I go to find them for her,
in a wide pool, deep and clear, far down Withywindle;
there they open first in spring and there they linger latest.
By that pool long ago I found the River-daughter,
fair young Goldberry sitting in the rushes.


Q. Are the rushes of Goldberry’s pool the “Reed” in opposition to Old Man Willow in the second part of Tom’s spell, By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow? (emphasis by squire)

We have already seen speculation in an earlier post that Goldberry in her guise as a water spirit is not, perhaps, entirely a “nice” being.
R. Is she the daughter of the River, or the River itself?

S. Whose side is the River on: Tom’s, or his enemies?

Goldberry reassures Frodo on his arrival: ‘For you are still afraid, perhaps, of mist and tree-shadows and deep water,…’ (bold by squire)
T. Is she referring to the “wide pool, deep and clear”, where she was born, as a place to fear?


East
‘I have been walking wide, leaping on the hilltops, since the grey dawn began, nosing wind and weather, wet grass underfoot, wet sky above me.’

Tom’s talk left the woods and went leaping up the young stream, over bubbling waterfalls, over pebbles and worn rocks, and among small flowers in close grass and wet crannies, wandering at last up on to the Downs. They heard of the Great Barrows, and the green mounds, and the stone-rings upon the hills and in the hollows among the hills. Sheep were bleating in flocks. … These four now suddenly remembered what the joy of this house had driven from their minds: the house of Tom Bombadil nestled under the very shoulder of those dreaded hills.

U. Why are the Downs so “dreaded” by the hobbits, given how inaccessible they are from the Shire?

V. How far East, South, and North do the Downs go – and does Tom’s country include all the Downs?

North
…they decided to make nearly due North from his house, over the western and lower slopes of the Downs: they might hope in that way to strike the East Road in a day’s journey, and avoid the Barrows. He told them not to be afraid - but to mind their own business.

[Chapter 8]
…he laughed, and said that they were so good at losing themselves that he would not feel happy till he had seen them safe over the borders of his land. ‘I’ve got things to do,’ he said: ‘my making and my singing, my talking and my walking, and my watching of the country.’

They begged him to come at least as far as the inn and drink once more with them; but he laughed and refused, saying:
Tom’s country ends here: he will not pass the borders.


Don’t be afraid, but mind your own business. Okay…
W. Does that advice from the Master also apply in the Old Forest, or down by the lower end of the Withywindle, or further east in the Downs?

We know, or think we do, what Tom’s singing and talking are like, and what they can do.
X. What is his “making”, his “walking”, and his “watching of the country” about?

We had to jump a chapter boundary (sorry!) but here at least we find Tom actually drawing the line, when he drops them on the Great East Road less than a day’s journey from Bree.
Y. West, South, East, North: Where does Tom’s country end?

Final question

Z. Where are the animals?




squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 29 2015, 11:06pm

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E: landscapes like these in England:By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow would describe Oxfordshire and thereabouts [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't personally believe that the hobbits journey is supposed to map a particular place, but the succession of small pockets of different country is very typical of much of England. Bits of Forest or downland survive in between the farmlands, typically in sizes that would be a few hours to walk across. Tolkien could easily get to in countryside similar to that described here (I'll list a few locations, without suggesting that such and such a place + is+ the location being described in the book):

From Tolkiens house in North Oxford, he could have easily walked along banks of the Thames, and the Cherwell (Oxford is the confluence of those rivers). The Windrush is a bit further west. There is a nice walk away out of Oxford through Whytham woods, which party cover an iron age hill fort, and lead down to the Thames. The old Wytchwood (now fragments of a Royal forest dating from Norman times) is a bit further west. There are various barrow s in Oxfordshire http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=24445 but a lot of them have been ploughed up. But go south Swindon way and there is a further ancient forest (the Savernake forest), only 15 miles off so from the barrow at Wayland Smithy, which is a short walk from White Horse Hill. Avebury, the largest Neolithic stone circle in Europe, is pretty close by.

Or Tolkien could head north out of Oxford, and by a nice cycle ride get to the Rollright Stones https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/...es/rollright-stones/ a wonderfully creepy stone circle. Or Stonehenge, which is in the middle of a very Barrow Downs landscape, is a perfectly feasible day trip from Oxford by car.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 29 2015, 11:10pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 30 2015, 1:54am

Post #3 of 14 (4290 views)
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Landscapers R Us [In reply to] Can't Post

B. Why is the landscape around Tom’s house described with these words: mown, shaven, clipped, trim, tended, bordered, smooth, turf, bare, clipped, shaven?
This seems a bit at odds with Tom's supposed detachment from things, doesn't it? Shouldn't he be telling the grass in his yard to grow wild and be free so that his home looks like a rundown hippie commune? If Tolkien says that Tom appreciates nature as it is without dominating and ordering it, why does he have a manicured lawn? I suppose Tolkien glossed over that point in favor of showing that Bombadil had all the familiar comforts of home. If some innocent blades of grass were cruelly beheaded to achieve that effect, the less said about them the better.

F. What does Goldberry mean, and why is she dismayed, by the idea that owning “this strange land” would be a burden?
That's my question too. She's hinting about something we have no other clue to.

L. How many hobbits have perished in the Old Forest, despite Tom’s uncertain guardianship?
Well, they are afraid of it, so I'd say "some."

N. Goldberry says Tom does not own the land; but does the Willow, through the “dominion” of its spirit, “own” the Old Forest and the Withywindle valley?
I'd say yes, but not in a real estate, land-deed kind of way. Effectively the Willow shows more day-to-day mastery of the Old Forest than Tom does, until Tom asserts his authority. Maybe Tom is so powerful that the Willow seems insignificant. Kings don't bother bossing insects around.

But if Goldberry is the daughter of the Withywindle River, why doesn't she or the river exert more power over their domain which is, clumsily said, their own body? Tom has wandered into this land and made it his home, but Goldberry is the river in the land (somehow), so wouldn't she push back more against Old Man Willow drawing things down to his lair in her valley? (I'm not making as much sense as I'd hoped to, mostly because I can't nail down what Goldberry is, other than pretty.)

U. Why are the Downs so “dreaded” by the hobbits, given how inaccessible they are from the Shire?
Actually, the Barrow Downs are within a day's ride south of the great Road, and hobbits once traveled more freely between the Shire and Bree (and still do), so they would have heard about the Downs from those who came near them and got spooked. Or maybe heard about "Uncle Pluto who went to the Downs and never came back." The hobbits actually know the name of Mordor, and that's much, much farther away, so knowing about the nearby Downs isn't surprising.

Quote
That name [Mordor] the hobbits only knew in legends of the dark past, like a shadow in the background of their memories; but it was ominous and disquieting.



Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 30 2015, 4:05am

Post #4 of 14 (4297 views)
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Back again with some answers... [In reply to] Can't Post

m, and with malice. But none were more dangerous than the Great Willow: his heart was rotten, but his strength was green; and he was cunning, and a master of winds, and his song and thought ran through the woods on both sides of the river. His grey thirsty spirit drew power out of the earth and spread like fine root-threads in the ground, and invisible twig-fingers in the air, till it had under its dominion nearly all the trees of the Forest from the Hedge to the Downs. B. Why is the landscape around Tom’s house described with these words: mown, shaven, clipped, trim, tended, bordered, smooth, turf, bare, clipped, shaven?

Well, I get the feeling we are supposed to feel comfortable here, as are the hobbits. Having a familiar, well-ordered house to stay in puts us immediately at ease. I'd like to contrast this to Beorn's house. It seems so large and alien to Bilbo, and we don't know what to make of him-- friend or foe. Tom is an apparent friend, and his house must look the part. Though, all that later talk of looking fair, and feeling foul doesn't seem to give Frodo any pause here!

C. Who does the clipping, etc.?

I'm not sure there is meant to be an answer. If you want one, I could make it up!

Beetles-- little beetles with sharp mandibles. Tom sings a jig, they come, and then cart of the clipping for nests.Sly

D. Where else in the book do we find contrasts between gardens and untamed nature?

Ithilien. I think immediately of Ithilien here. Though, here, order seems imposed, if ever so slightly, but there Nature has grown wild.

Fangorn is the next contrast. Treebeard laments the forest is not in the shape he'd like it to be.

E. Does anyone know?

I'm pretty sure Tolkien does!Angelic

F. What does Goldberry mean, and why is she dismayed, by the idea that owning “this strange land” would be a burden?

I get the idea that the very thought of controlling another being is supposed to be abhorrent. Also, Goldberry, with her special connexion to water and nature, might be espescially horrified if someone imposed authority over it. 'Nature is meant to govern itself', I think that is the idea we are supposed to glean.

G. Who or what tries to “catch” Tom, or maybe other folk, in these landscapes?

I get the feeling it is not so much a 'pursuit', as a 'discovery'. No on cares enough to look, or if they do see, they don't perceive who he is.

H. Is Tom the Master because he has no fear, or does he have no fear because he is the Master?

Any idiot can be brave, so I'd incline to say the latter. He knows his place, and has the experience of millenia.

K. Why do so many illustrators portray Tom in all his cheerful foolery, but never put him in the context of the dark horrors that constitute so much of his little land?

I think that is what most remember of him. His eccentricities are easily recalled, but his sagacity is seldom mentioned. I think it has to do with the general impressions we form of people. We tend to classify them narrowly, and thus fail to see the whole character.

Also, he might also be so cheery as a balance to his dangerous life. I know many people in dangerous and grim situations or lines of work develop strange mannerisms or habits to cope with the stress. Or maybe this just shows he is Master, master of himself, and not worrying about anything.

L. How many hobbits have perished in the Old Forest, despite Tom’s uncertain guardianship?

Tooks and Bradybuck, I'll warrant, taken with the urge to explore.


N. Goldberry says Tom does not own the land; but does the Willow, through the “dominion” of its spirit, “own” the Old Forest and the Withywindle valley?

I think there is a definite limit to powers. No one has total power over an area. Even in Mordor, flowers grow, though Sauron would be horrified, I'm sure. I think then that there aer many influences in the world, some for good, some for evil, and not one of them absolute. Each acts in it's own sphere and has it's own effect. If the Willow were in power, then Tom wouldn't be able to thwart it.

O. When the other ancient trees remember the times when they were lords, is that a reference to the days before Men and Hobbits appeared to challenge the forests, or is it a reference to the time before the Great Willow took them under his control?

I think they remember the virgin forest.

P. Is the Shire part of Tom’s country, within his “bounds”?

Maggot is his friend, I'm sure there were always some hobbits good enough to capture Tom's interest.



Q. Are the rushes of Goldberry’s pool the “Reed” in opposition to Old Man Willow in the second part of Tom’s spell, By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow? (emphasis by squire)

Maybe, but 'willow' is just perfect to Rhyme with 'Bombadillo'!Sly

We have already seen speculation in an earlier post that Goldberry in her guise as a water spirit is not, perhaps, entirely a “nice” being.

Really! I missed that! I'll have to go back and look!

R. Is she the daughter of the River, or the River itself?

I think she is of the river, so at least is connected to it in some way, but not 'the river', being far from containing its whole consciousness, memory, and power. She might be an expression of it, or some part of it, but not the whole.

S. Whose side is the River on: Tom’s, or his enemies?

As much as Nature is on anyone's side! It looks after itself, and will aid you if you happen to be going the same way, and continue to help if you care for it.

T. Is she referring to the “wide pool, deep and clear”, where she was born, as a place to fear?

Hobbits can't swim, so I imagine this is a common fear, especially give their size.

U. Why are the Downs so “dreaded” by the hobbits, given how inaccessible they are from the Shire?

We always have a ghost story about some old building or location around us. It's like a repository for all the ancient fears of our ancestors. Strange things have to happen somewhere!


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 30 2015, 12:50pm

Post #5 of 14 (4280 views)
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slaves [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
F. What does Goldberry mean, and why is she dismayed, by the idea that owning “this strange land” would be a burden?

I get the idea that the very thought of controlling another being is supposed to be abhorrent. Also, Goldberry, with her special connexion to water and nature, might be espescially horrified if someone imposed authority over it. 'Nature is meant to govern itself', I think that is the idea we are supposed to glean.






Like: if Tom is meant to "be" something like land or nature personified (which I admit is very vague), then to own "this strange land" would be to own a slave, if we are thinking of portions of the natural world as "personified".


That's what I think, too, although it's very slippery in my mind and I can't quite grasp my own thought here. Because if Tom is a magical manifestation of this small and shrinking portion of the world somehow ("personifying" it) then of course he "owns" it, because it = him.


Back to enigmatic.





a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



a.s.
Valinor


Jan 30 2015, 1:02pm

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by all that is holy.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ho! Tom Bombadil, Tom Bombadillo!
By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow,
By fire, sun and moon, harken now and hear us!
Come, Tom Bombadil, for our need is near us!






I don't think these features are meant to be specific. I think they are simply meant to signify general features of this part of Arda that are associated with Tom. I think this verse above is akin to a fervent invocation in our primary world using the term "by all that is holy" or "by God".


In other portions of the text, Tolkien indicates a specific Willow or specific River by capitalizing the word. So excepting the times Tom speaks of "Willow-man" or "Withywindle", I don't think he or Goldberry mean specific willows or rivers or etc.


I have to leave the speculations about the geography and boundaries to others, as despite scores of reading I can't ever keep map features in my head. Blush


a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



sador
Half-elven


Jan 30 2015, 1:56pm

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My apologies. [In reply to] Can't Post

I had volunteered to lead the discussion in two weeks' time, and then found myself bogged down with RL constraints; so I am preparing for that - and unfortunately have no time to respond to your discussion. I will try to get around to it sometime - but it might be only after that discussion.


And thanks for the CNSY song! Although it puts Tolkien's songs in a rather poor light...


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 30 2015, 6:45pm

Post #8 of 14 (4269 views)
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Very nice! [In reply to] Can't Post

He can't 'own' himself! Clever!Cool

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Terazed
Bree

Jan 31 2015, 5:09am

Post #9 of 14 (4266 views)
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Nature [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
F. What does Goldberry mean, and why is she dismayed, by the idea that owning “this strange land” would be a burden?

As I mentioned before Tom and Goldberry represent a blessed state of.exestance before "the fall". They exist in harmony with nature. If they owned or ruled over nature that would put them after the fall and therefore Tom would be susceptible to the power of the ring.


Quote
G. Who or what tries to “catch” Tom, or maybe other folk, in these landscapes?

If they are in harmony with nature then they have to accept that nature is strictly predator and prey. Nature is morally ambivalent and to be happy in such a world means to live in the present.


Quote
H. Is Tom the Master because he has no fear, or does he have no fear because he is the Master?

Tom is the master because he has no fear. To live in harmony with nature without fear one has been to overcome their fear of death. It means surrendering control or domination over one's surroundings. Notice how the hobbits' dreams tend to focus on either drowning or being swallowed up. These are childhood nightmares of not being in control. They are comforted by the call to "heed no nightly noises". The answer to living at one with nature is to live in the present without focusing on the future or past. It was the same for Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.


Khim
Bree


Jan 31 2015, 3:07pm

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A Strange Pad [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I should be discussing Tom's hang out I'm afraid I'm using an iPad and hate trying to type on it.

I just wanted to thank you for this well-concieved discussion. Your stimulus generated a focussed and facinating response from the fine members of this forum. I regret my long absence from The Reading Room.

I recall as a boy reading about the hobbits' visit to Tom's house and loving it. I agree with others that among other purposes it serves as both a rest, a pause in their flight, and a further step into the strange and wide world. I never was one of those who longed for the plot to rush forward, I preferred to linger in Middle-earth. The books always end too soon for me, and spending a hip weekend with Mr B and his sweet old lady has always been a favorite vacation destination. I've been there many many times.

This thread deserves a more reasoned response, but really I just wanted to say thanks to you and the group for some pleasant reading.

I am Khim akin to Mim.


Brethil
Half-elven


Feb 1 2015, 3:38am

Post #11 of 14 (4252 views)
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Owning strange land [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
F. What does Goldberry mean, and why is she dismayed, by the idea that owning “this strange land” would be a burden?

As I mentioned before Tom and Goldberry represent a blessed state of.exestance before "the fall". They exist in harmony with nature. If they owned or ruled over nature that would put them after the fall and therefore Tom would be susceptible to the power of the ring.

I like this point very much. And if they are indeed a sort of spirit-in-raiment versus fully incarnate, I wonder if the burdens of complete incarnation (which I think would be needed for actual 'ownership and thus domination') and all its implications post-marring would weigh upon them like a burden. The dreaded step into 'agriculture and cattle-breeding' from the purity of zoology and botany.

The 'strange land' of today, different than the deep past - fascinating insight from Goldberry there.








(This post was edited by Brethil on Feb 1 2015, 3:40am)


Terazed
Bree

Feb 1 2015, 2:34pm

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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post


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In Reply To

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F. What does Goldberry mean, and why is she dismayed, by the idea that owning “this strange land” would be a burden?

As I mentioned before Tom and Goldberry represent a blessed state of.exestance before "the fall". They exist in harmony with nature. If they owned or ruled over nature that would put them after the fall and therefore Tom would be susceptible to the power of the ring.

I like this point very much. And if they are indeed a sort of spirit-in-raiment versus fully incarnate, I wonder if the burdens of complete incarnation (which I think would be needed for actual 'ownership and thus domination') and all its implications post-marring would weigh upon them like a burden. The dreaded step into 'agriculture and cattle-breeding' from the purity of zoology and botany.

The 'strange land' of today, different than the deep past - fascinating insight from Goldberry there.


I agree with you. The elves' entire culture strikes me as an attempt to get back to the state which Tom and Goldberry exist in. The elves however did fall and are burdened. Their attempts have led to a stasis and melancholy of immortality despite their efforts which are not present with Tom and Goldberry. Rivendell and Lothlorien are the closest that they can achieve with the help of the rings. If Tom and Goldberry took possession of the land I would think that would be the best they could hope to achieve as well and they would show signs of the same melancholy that the elves have. Toms primitive language in the next chapter would sound different.


Darkstone
Immortal


Feb 2 2015, 10:41pm

Post #13 of 14 (4246 views)
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"You can't catch me, I'm the Bombadil Man!" [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Are Tom and Goldberry referring to the generic concepts of water, wood and hill, reed and willow? Or are they naming a specific Water, Wood, and Hill

I think Tolkien’s having a bit of a joke here. It seems to be a common enough travelogue phrase.

When we add to the landscape grandeur of these boundless and luxuriant plains, agreeably diversified with water, wood, and hill...
- Council journal of the Legislative Assembly of Dakota Territory (1869)

The views present features of quiet loveliness and grandeur, in which water, wood, and hill, are commingled.
-Black’s Tourist’s Guide to Wales (1877)

Driving north eight miles over beautiful undulating downs of light sand and limestone soil, grazed by useful dairy cattle, with varied view of water, wood, and hill…
-American Farming and Food, Finlay Dun (1881)

The views at Bettws-y-Coed present features of quiet loveliness and grandeur, in which water, wood and hill commingle.
-A Motor Tour Through France and England, Elizabeth Yardley (1911)
(Given it’s been over a century, I’ll make no judgments on Ms. Yardley’s originality.)


…do they have in mind an actual Reed,…

I’ll again point out Blake’s Songs of Innocence.

Piper sit thee down and write
In a book that all may read—
So he vanish'd from my sight.
And I pluck'd a hollow reed.



…and the eponymous Willow?

Old Man Willow.


B. Why is the landscape around Tom’s house described with these words: mown, shaven, clipped, trim, tended, bordered, smooth, turf, bare, clipped, shaven?

It’s the garden.


C. Who does the clipping, etc.?

Whoever does the cooking. House-elves probably.


D. Where else in the book do we find contrasts between gardens and untamed nature?

Ents and Entwives.


E. Does anyone know?

I’ve heard the Midlands, but that a big place.


F. What does Goldberry mean, and why is she dismayed, by the idea that owning “this strange land” would be a burden?

Then it’d all have to be mown, shaven, clipped, trimmed, tended, bordered, smoothed, turfed, and bared, and Tom would have to find more house-elves and the ones they have already give Goldberry the willies.


Goldberry describes Tom as risking but warding off some threat or attack in the wood, in the water, and on the hill.
G. Who or what tries to “catch” Tom, or maybe other folk, in these landscapes?


Old Man Willow, badger folk, barrow wights, and, before he caught her, Goldberry.


H. Is Tom the Master because he has no fear, or does he have no fear because he is the Master?

Yes.


I. Where is the zone of safety in Tom’s world: the clipped and trimmed landscape that surrounds his house, or just inside the house itself?

The Greek oikos, or “house”, was the responsibility of the kyrios, or “master”. Once outside the house you were out of the master’s protection.


J. Could Tom even exist without the ‘nightly noises’ and ‘untame things’?

”All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.”
-Richard Adams, Watership Down


K. Why do so many illustrators portray Tom in all his cheerful foolery, but never put him in the context of the dark horrors that constitute so much of his little land?

They only remember his silly poetry.

Just as he planned!

(Patrick Spottiswoode, Director of Education at Shakespeare’s Globe in London, has some interesting observations on how sometimes villains in Shakespeare use rhymed couplets to contrast with the hero’s blank verse. See Iago, for example.)


Tom tells Frodo it was chance that saved the hobbits, although he and Goldberry knew they were coming. He says it’s “hard for little folk to escape” the willow’s lures.
L. How many hobbits have perished in the Old Forest, despite Tom’s uncertain guardianship?


As Bilbo said, ”…so many quiet lads and lasses…”

So many….

M. Is the comment about the hobbits beginning to understand the Forest on its own terms, an example of the “scientific” or “objective” viewpoint that Tom represents,….

Probably.


…or is an allegory for (as discussed in a previous post)?

You just made a bunch of Tolkien scholars cry.

Good for you!


N. Goldberry says Tom does not own the land; but does the Willow, through the “dominion” of its spirit, “own” the Old Forest and the Withywindle valley?

Domination is not ownership, as many a deposed tyrant has discovered.


O. When the other ancient trees remember the times when they were lords, is that a reference to the days before Men and Hobbits appeared to challenge the forests, or is it a reference to the time before the Great Willow took them under his control?

I’d say before the Ents.


[Tom] appeared already to know much about them and all their families, and indeed to know much of all the history and doings of the Shire down from days hardly remembered among the hobbits themselves.

P. Is the Shire part of Tom’s country, within his “bounds”?


Maybe Tom and Goldberry aren’t childless after all, but the parents of the hobbit race.


Q. Are the rushes of Goldberry’s pool the “Reed” in opposition to Old Man Willow in the second part of Tom’s spell, By water, wood and hill, by the reed and willow? (emphasis by squire)

The same. Remember Goldberry tried to catch (and drown?) Tom too.


R. Is she the daughter of the River, or the River itself?

Neither. Daughter of the River-woman.

You think Tolkien knew of the South African myth of Selekana and the River God? Turns out the River God was actually a female. (See Jan Knappert’s Myths and Legends of Botswana, Lesotho and Swaziland.)



S. Whose side is the River on: Tom’s, or his enemies?

As per Treebeard: ”I am not altogether on anybody's side, because nobody is altogether on my side, if you understand me…”


Goldberry reassures Frodo on his arrival: ‘For you are still afraid, perhaps, of mist and tree-shadows and deep water,…’ (bold by squire)
T. Is she referring to the “wide pool, deep and clear”, where she was born, as a place to fear?


That’s where the River-woman is:

Back to her mother's house in the deepest hollow swam young Goldberry.
-The Adventures of Tom Bombadil


U. Why are the Downs so “dreaded” by the hobbits, given how inaccessible they are from the Shire?

All the Shire maps say “There be monsters”.


V. How far East, South, and North do the Downs go – and does Tom’s country include all the Downs?

Far and yes.


They begged him to come at least as far as the inn and drink once more with them; but he laughed and refused, saying:
Tom’s country ends here: he will not pass the borders.
Don’t be afraid, but mind your own business. Okay…
W. Does that advice from the Master also apply in the Old Forest, or down by the lower end of the Withywindle, or further east in the Downs?


I merely note that Mr. Baggins does not leave the borders of the Shire.

But Mr. Underhill does.

This means something.


We know, or think we do, what Tom’s singing and talking are like, and what they can do.
X. What is his “making”, his “walking”, and his “watching of the country” about?


A”maker” is a scop who creates a reality with his verse.

Odin was known as “Gang-something-or-other”, which translates as “wanderer” or “walker”.

As for “watcher”, Genesis 6:4 is a pretty fair mirror of Tom and Goldberry’s courtship, though those watchers’ thing was for the daughters of men rather than daughters of rivers.


We had to jump a chapter boundary (sorry!) but here at least we find Tom actually drawing the line, when he drops them on the Great East Road less than a day’s journey from Bree.
Y. West, South, East, North: Where does Tom’s country end?


Where he likes. And I don’t think he likes it Outside.


Final question

Z. Where are the animals?


Remember that abattoir-like room the hobbits slept in?

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


sador
Half-elven


Mar 12 2015, 8:06am

Post #14 of 14 (4162 views)
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Back for crumbs [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Are Tom and Goldberry referring to the generic concepts of water, wood and hill, reed and willow? Or are they naming a specific Water, Wood, and Hill – do they have in mind an actual Reed, and the eponymous Willow?
"By water, wood and hill, b the reed and the willow" need not be invocations - they can simply be locations by which he could be found. However, the next line is clearly different.

D. Where else in the book do we find contrasts between gardens and untamed nature?
People have noted the Ents and Entwives; but this actually sheds a new light on the argument who was the "eldest" - and I would say the uninterfering vigilance of Treebeard should come before Tom's husbandry (but see further on).

I'm pretty sure I've never noticed the garden-like aspect of Tom's house. And it is very important. Thank you!

E. Does anyone know?
Tom Shippey wrote that Tolkien had all of Tom's country within a few hours' walk from his study in Oxford. And he should know.

F. What does Goldberry mean, and why is she dismayed, by the idea that owning “this strange land” would be a burden?
It would probably encroach on what's left of her family's authority.

G. Who or what tries to “catch” Tom, or maybe other folk, in these landscapes?

Whoever can. From The Adventures of Tom Bombadil it seems that he is surrounded by hostile entities. And I'm sure the trees didn't like his garden, nor the Barrow-wights his singing. Like Minas Tirith, his house is a fortress; and outside it is growing dark.

H. Is Tom the Master because he has no fear, or does he have no fear because he is the Master?

The first. Tom can master the perils of the land, because he is fearless and has successfully cowed them.

I. Where is the zone of safety in Tom’s world: the clipped and trimmed landscape that surrounds his house, or just inside the house itself?
The hedge is the Dike; the house is the Keep.

K. Why do so many illustrators portray Tom in all his cheerful foolery, but never put him in the context of the dark horrors that constitute so much of his little land? I think they can't resist the pun about tomfoolery.

But the horrors are vague, and below the surface; I haven't comprehended them in full myself, before you pointed out the garden-like quality of it in the midst of the Wild.

L. How many hobbits have perished in the Old Forest, despite Tom’s uncertain guardianship?
I don't consider it a guardianship. He seems to have refused the burden (or his wife refused it for him...)

Regarding your question - probably enough for the stories about it to circulate.


N. Goldberry says Tom does not own the land; but does the Willow, through the “dominion” of its spirit, “own” the Old Forest and the Withywindle valley?
"Withywindle" means the winding river of willows. And indeed, willows figure prominently on its banks. If we consider the Willows as the River's "brood", the senior willow is indeed the hereditary lord of the Forest.

O. When the other ancient trees remember the times when they were lords, is that a reference to the days before Men and Hobbits appeared to challenge the forests, or is it a reference to the time before the Great Willow took them under his control?
On the contrary - before Tom came.
(Yes, I know he was eldest - but he probably wasn't always around this corner of Arnor)

P. Is the Shire part of Tom’s country, within his “bounds”?
Hardly so. Bree isn't.

R. Is she the daughter of the River, or the River itself?
The River-daughter, which means she is close kin to Old Man Willow.


S. Whose side is the River on: Tom’s, or his enemies?

Do you mean Goldberry? She is a Sabine woman - abducted against her will by an enemy, but having married him she has become quite tame, and is now on his side - or at least, on the side of avoiding conflict between him and her kin.

T. Is she referring to the “wide pool, deep and clear”, where she was born, as a place to fear?
Yes.

U. Why are the Downs so “dreaded” by the hobbits, given how inaccessible they are from the Shire?
This probably stems from stories which have come from Bree.

V. How far East, South, and North do the Downs go –
The Greenway is quite safe, so I expect this is the border.

and does Tom’s country include all the Downs?
Is Tom the Lord of Cardolan? He does remember the fair lady who first wore the Barrow-down brooch. Hmm.

Don’t be afraid, but mind your own business. Okay…
W. Does that advice from the Master also apply in the Old Forest, or down by the lower end of the Withywindle, or further east in the Downs?
It worked for him.
But as Frodo will discover at the Ford, he is no Bombadil.

Z. Where are the animals?
Tom's House is about plants and still nature.
It's counterpart is were the animals are - and they are properly cultivated, in another garden-fortress of a powerful Man (or Man-like Being) in the middle of a wild, dangerous land.

I mean of course the House of Beorn.






 
 

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