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Tips on writing?

Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jan 26 2015, 8:33pm

Post #1 of 22 (1023 views)
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Tips on writing? Can't Post

Hey, we all are Tolkien fans here, so I suppose this is a good place to get tips on writing. I like writing, but I want to try and improve. Would you have any tips on writing fantasy? I'm trying to do something like Tolkien's but I want it to be original. I just need something to do when I'm bored. Tongue

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."-from "The Last Goodbye"

"Why does it hurt so much?"
"Because it was real."
(PLEASE DON'T HURT ME)

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above gold, the world would be a merrier place."-BotFA/The Hobbit


Annael
Immortal


Jan 26 2015, 8:39pm

Post #2 of 22 (925 views)
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Ursula Le Guin has several good books on writing fantasy [In reply to] Can't Post

I suggest "Steering the Craft" to start.

Since evidence can be adduced and interpreted to corroborate a virtually limitless array of world views, the human challenge is to engage that world view or set of perspectives which brings forth the most valuable, life-enhancing consequences.

- Richard Tarnas, The Passion of the Western Mind

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Jan 26 2015, 9:07pm

Post #3 of 22 (919 views)
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Stephen King's book "On Writing" is very good too. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not a fan of his genre, but he really is a very good writer.

I write as a hobby (and have my whole life) and I self-publish as part of the hobby but I'm not out to be a professional writer at all. I've been in a writers' group for 20 years, and they've helped me a lot. A couple of simple rules make a big difference. Tolkien breaks both of them all the time, but he's good enough to get away with it.

1. Write from a single point of view, at least within a scene. (Tolkien breaks this spectacularly as the Fellowship leaves Lothlorien and he tells us in a single sentence what each of them is thinking.) But for me, it helped my writing a lot.

2. Show, don't tell. Instead of telling us someone is clever, show the character doing something clever, for example. Tolkien breaks this one too, and it's not as successful. However often he told us that Boromir was noble and beloved, I never bought it until the movie.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Jan 26 2015, 9:10pm

Post #4 of 22 (921 views)
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Oh, and Lin Carter's book "Imaginary Worlds" [In reply to] Can't Post

was helpful when I was first starting out. I don't like his fiction, but he's good at analyzing other people's fantasy and figuring out what works.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jan 26 2015, 9:26pm

Post #5 of 22 (912 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

I couldn't find Steering the Craft on my Kindle, but I got On Writing and another good book. I couldn't get Imaginary Writings, but I got another good book on making worlds, and it talks about JRR Tolkien and somethings he made.

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."-from "The Last Goodbye"

"Why does it hurt so much?"
"Because it was real."
(PLEASE DON'T HURT ME)

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above gold, the world would be a merrier place."-BotFA/The Hobbit


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 26 2015, 9:38pm

Post #6 of 22 (916 views)
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a blog I ran across at one point [In reply to] Can't Post

When I was reading lots of Harry Potter (and esp. Deathly Hallows), I ran across this blog:
http://harrypotterforwriters.blogspot.com/

I though the articles were fascinating from the viewpoint of someone (me) who loves writing in one sense but not fiction writing. You might find it useful/interesting... or not. :-)

I run across advice articles for writers at io9. I don't know how useful they are. (caveat, although it's not a troll infested site by any stretch of the imagination they do have - occasionally - more mature content including language and they link to some of their sibling aggregate sites that can get even more *colorful*. It's not stuff that bothers me a lot but I don't know you or your age well enough to not mention that)

here are a few io9 articles I can find quickly:
The Crucial Storytelling Mistake that Many Beginning Writers Make
The Best Apps for Any Kind of Writing
and a bunch of articles that mostly seem about writing using the tag Free Advice

And I think it might work for you to, as you write, seek out advice or opinions on a particular writing point. For example, one our members is pursing the craft of writing fiction. She asked me what i thought about invented languages and I wrote a whole bunch of stuff in response. I found that email when I was searching for the Harry Potter link because I knew I had sent it to her. I'm sure you'd get tons of feedback/advice/opinions on the use of invented languages in fantasy fiction if you posted a request for it here. That's just an example, though. It could be about any particular thing you're exploring in your writing at the moment.

and by the way, I found this article about invented languages in fantasy fiction when looking for some stuff for my friend: The Language of Fantasy by DAVID SALO

Why waste a good link!


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 26 2015, 9:53pm

Post #7 of 22 (917 views)
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Keep it grounded. [In reply to] Can't Post

Even a world where magic is real can't break all of the rules. People are still people; they should still act and speak naturally (within the context of their society). Even magic should have limits which should be strictly and consistently observed. Different kinds of magic, though, could have different limitations and strictures.

No matter how alien and bizarre the environment, the reader still needs someone or something that he/she can relate to.

You might want to find a copy of the book Fantasists on Fantasy, edited by Robert H. Boyer and Kenneth J. Zahorski. It consists of eighteen critical essays by fantasists including Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Peter S. Beagle, Lloyd Alexander, Ursula K. Le Guin, Michael Moorcock, and others.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 26 2015, 9:57pm)


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Jan 26 2015, 10:56pm

Post #8 of 22 (905 views)
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I can't remember who said "Put weather in." [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien's really good at that. And in Carter's book, he talks a lot about how small details can really make a fantasy world seem real.

Yes, 'Fantasists on Fantasy' is good too.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 27 2015, 12:01am

Post #9 of 22 (904 views)
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Read what you've written out loud .... [In reply to] Can't Post

... often, until the rhythm feels right. You can do it when no one's listening (it's best that way). I'm writing non-fiction but I think this applies to all types of writing. I find that reading out loud really helps to get the shape and feel of the words and to make sure the emphasis is falling in the right place. It also tells you how readable your writing is.


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jan 27 2015, 1:40am

Post #10 of 22 (887 views)
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Yeah thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

I've also decided to make it lore, and not mystical powers. I like JK Rowling's books, but visualizing people flash power at each other doesn't sound right to me. I'm looking up the book you talked about. Thanks for all the help, I'll have a lot to read, since most of the week will be snow days.

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."-from "The Last Goodbye"

"Why does it hurt so much?"
"Because it was real."
(PLEASE DON'T HURT ME)

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above gold, the world would be a merrier place."-BotFA/The Hobbit


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jan 27 2015, 1:47am

Post #11 of 22 (883 views)
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Could you guys give any good tips you remember? [In reply to] Can't Post

Fantasists on Fantasy and Imaginary Worlds seem like really good books, but I can't get them on my kindle. I might pick a copy up at my bookstore another day after the blizzard. Would you guys have any good tips you remember that are in the book?

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."-from "The Last Goodbye"

"Why does it hurt so much?"
"Because it was real."
(PLEASE DON'T HURT ME)

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above gold, the world would be a merrier place."-BotFA/The Hobbit


Magpie
Immortal


Jan 27 2015, 2:20am

Post #12 of 22 (884 views)
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don't forget about the library! [In reply to] Can't Post

That would likely have to wait for the snow, too, but I think the library is underutilized resource.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jan 27 2015, 4:33am

Post #13 of 22 (874 views)
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read read read [In reply to] Can't Post

actual books, not so much how to write books...

eventually all the stories sink into the depths of your soul, and then

write write write

and get some friends to edit

and write some more

I've read a bunch of stuff on How To Edit and how To Write a Blockbuster, and a lot of that stuff is just how to write a formulaic thing that might actually sell if you find the right agent/editor/publisher whatever, except now it's all different from when my friend started back in the 70s and everybody's going to Amazon to self-publish, and nobody edits their stuff and we're all doomed to mediocre writing (heard a great bit on NPR about that).

write wrtie wrtie... and spell check

At first, I was echoing Tolkien very strongly. Wrote a bunch of fanfiction (https://www.fanfiction.net/u/290949/Teanna).

Eventually I moved away from the Tolkien xerox and began developing my own ideas.

write write write

and keep reading.

It may be useful to read what favorite authors have to say about the art of writing.

Am now reading a great book by Ed Catmull called Creativity Inc. It's about the founding of Pixar, and, while not specifically about writing, contains a lot of insights into the creative process.

Pixar has the "Braintrust", a group of folks who get together and brainstorm projects, hammering away at them until they are the top of the line awesome that we expect from Pixar. I think it's important to have your own Braintrust, even if it's one good friend who can read and give feedback in an honest way.

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...





swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jan 27 2015, 4:34am

Post #14 of 22 (879 views)
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oooooooooh ooo oooo ooo [In reply to] Can't Post

(raises hand wildly like Hermione)

I read that one too, actually quite useful.

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...





swordwhale
Tol Eressea


Jan 27 2015, 4:49am

Post #15 of 22 (874 views)
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grounded [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, keep it grounded in reality, not the umpteenth level of some random video game.

Tolkien's world is wonderful for its very subtle "magic" which seems to be more of a spiritual nature (and more like "real world magic" of the sort many people I know practice)... that is, you are channeling natural energies, not something "supernatural".

Tolkien is also awesome for his depiction of the natural world and its forces, creatures, and as someone mentioned, weather.

Consistency: Legolas consistently shows a deep relationship with the natural world (rides a fiery warhorse without saddle or rein, hears the stones speak, stands in wonder at the edge of a dark forest, waxes poetic over the distant cry of gulls in the dark, gets really irritated when people smoke in his air...).

Also read some Joseph Campbell. He wrote Hero With a Thousand Faces, and the PBS series The Power of Myth (http://video.pbs.org/video/2201676017/). George Lucas studied Campbell before creating the first Star Wars trilogy (which is a faerie tale more akin to LOTR than to actual sci-fi).

Gene Rodenberry (Star Trek) made a point of any alien in the original series needing to have part of the face humanized, not buried in makeup, so it was relatable. Grounded in reality. The reason so many people related to Spock ( in one poll, third most popular TV character ever) was because he evoked parts of human nature we could relate to: being different, alienated, yet having gifts and strengths he could share.

Some author said of creating characters "I just looked and there he was..." not overly intellectualizing, but pulling that character out of a deep well of experience and instinct.

On that note, beware of hidden stereotypes. Double check to be sure you haven't just perpetrated one.

Archetype is different. Archetype is cool, it is the Original Model, it is Universal (most of the characters in LOTR are archetypes, as well as being unique individuals).

Carry on and write.

Na 'Aear, na 'Aear! Mýl 'lain nallol, I sûl ribiel a i falf 'loss reviol...
To the sea, to the sea, the white gulls are crying, the wind is blowing and the white foam is flying...





Eledhwen
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 27 2015, 6:56am

Post #16 of 22 (881 views)
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Neil Gaiman's advice is brilliant [In reply to] Can't Post

  1. Write.
  2. Put one word after another. Find the right word, put it down.
  3. Finish what you're writing. Whatever you have to do to finish it, finish it.
  4. Put it aside. Read it pretending youve never read it before. Show it to friends whose opinion you respect and who like the kind of thing that this is.
  5. Remember: when people tell you somethings wrong or doesnt work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.
  6. Fix it. Remember that, sooner or later, before it ever reaches perfection, you will have to let it go and move on and start to write the next thing. Perfection is like chasing the horizon. Keep moving.
  7. Laugh at your own jokes.
  8. The main rule of writing is that if you do it with enough assurance and confidence, youre allowed to do whatever you like. (That may be a rule for life as well as for writing. But its definitely true for writing.) So write your story as it needs to be written. Write it honestly, and tell it as best you can. I'm not sure that there are any other rules. Not ones that matter.


Storm clouds


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jan 27 2015, 5:02pm

Post #17 of 22 (862 views)
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Thanks so much [In reply to] Can't Post

Any good books on world building too? I got one on my Kindle, the people obviously like Middle-earth, but they're saying its not important to have any history. And I don't agree with a lot of what they're saying, they also thought JRR Tolkien never wanted The Simarillion to be published, its a pretty good book, but I think they're ignoring a lot of the good things that make Middle-earth a great world.

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."-from "The Last Goodbye"

"Why does it hurt so much?"
"Because it was real."
(PLEASE DON'T HURT ME)

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above gold, the world would be a merrier place."-BotFA/The Hobbit


Eruonen
Half-elven


Jan 28 2015, 4:43am

Post #18 of 22 (827 views)
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I posted this a few weeks ago.....nice write up of the process [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.brentweeks.com/extras/writing-advice/

by author Brent Weeks


Annael
Immortal


Jan 28 2015, 5:00pm

Post #19 of 22 (814 views)
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well, I googled that for you [In reply to] Can't Post

and this was the very first link that came up (Google is your friend!).

http://world-building.com/...g-believable-worlds/

Since evidence can be adduced and interpreted to corroborate a virtually limitless array of world views, the human challenge is to engage that world view or set of perspectives which brings forth the most valuable, life-enhancing consequences.

- Richard Tarnas, The Passion of the Western Mind

* * * * * * * * * *

NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 28 2015, 9:51pm

Post #20 of 22 (805 views)
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I enjoyed that book, too. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although, as with anything, don't slavishly follow anyone's advice, Stephen King's included.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)


Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal


Jan 28 2015, 10:20pm

Post #21 of 22 (810 views)
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Excellent point! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ray Bradbury also wrote a book on writing, the title of which escapes me. And his main point was not to aim at the market at the expense of art, or at the ivory tower at the expense of a good story, but to please yourself first of all.

My books aren't great writing, but I have pleased myself, and have a shelf of stories I love reading again and again. And that's pretty darned satisfying. (And thanks to you, I was able to format them properly. Thanks again for that :-) )


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Jan 28 2015, 10:22pm)


RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 28 2015, 10:44pm

Post #22 of 22 (819 views)
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You're welcome, LOL! [In reply to] Can't Post

MS Word has all kinds of nifty tricks for lazy people like me! Laugh

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

 
 

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