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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Who else liked how the deaths played out?
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


Jan 26 2015, 8:15pm

Post #1 of 26 (1544 views)
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Who else liked how the deaths played out? Can't Post

I really liked the deaths here (not in that way)... But I mean, they're all unique. Fili's is a war-like death, as a threat, which makes it really I don't know how to explain it, I guess, effective because people die in war, so many innocent people trying to protect others. Kili's was sad, with Tauriel (I was so-so about her before, but after seeing BotFA she was great), and it wasn't too action-y. Yeah Thorin's was a bit action-y, but it sort of played out that he knew he was going to die, and when the scene where Thorin was just following him floating under the ice was really great. And a lot of people in the theaters with me shouted no at Kili's death, gasped at Fili's, and there was a lot of sniffing during Thorin's death scene(reading it in the book is amazing, but actually seeing it, it's one of the best scenes in a movie that I have ever seen). This wasn't really a death, but you could really tell that some people didn't read the book or watch AUJ because someone screamed when Bilbo got knocked out.

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."-from "The Last Goodbye"

"Why does it hurt so much?"
"Because it was real."
(PLEASE DON'T HURT ME)

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above gold, the world would be a merrier place."-BotFA/The Hobbit


Shirriff Anthony
Bree


Jan 26 2015, 9:12pm

Post #2 of 26 (1058 views)
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Hated it [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili and Kili should have died defending there uncle. By moving the sequences to Ravenhill, the actual battle is dropped without consequence. Thorin's charge in a V formation should have been cut off and surrounded and he could have had his duel with Azog there.

Faramir: “I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 26 2015, 9:28pm

Post #3 of 26 (1022 views)
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Thorin's was a real high point. [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili and Kili's were shocking. Worked well for me.


Noria
Gondor

Jan 26 2015, 9:46pm

Post #4 of 26 (966 views)
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I liked it. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was happy that these deaths were not just generic battlefield deaths and that each one had different meaning. Fili's death was shocking and horrifying, Kili's was moving and Thorin's was heroic and devastating.

I liked the entire Ravenhill sequence, including the icy and isolated setting and that Thorin actually had a plan.

One thing I like about all these movies is that they are a different take on the story and frequently surprised me.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jan 26 2015, 9:48pm

Post #5 of 26 (955 views)
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I do think... [In reply to] Can't Post

someone who watched AUJ once, or read the Hobbit as a child, might still have a very upset reaction when Bolg strikes Bilbo and we are not sure he is still alive. One may not recollect the details especially in the moment.

I did not find the manner of death of the Durins to be all that important. To me it was more important that it happened, that (however it happened) we the audience cared about it, and that Thorin's death, in particular had some impact on the course of the battle. So yes, I was happy with the deaths, as I feel they did meet all my feelings about how they "should" be.

I do think the section of the film in which they occur is really effective. Watching it my sixth time, I noticed at some point how tense I was throughout this section. I find it really suspenseful even on re-watch.



Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jan 26 2015, 9:54pm

Post #6 of 26 (943 views)
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good overall [In reply to] Can't Post

I really would have preferred something closer to the book. Not just for the sake of having everything like the book, but because I think what was described would have been great to see and didn't really need to be changed.

I think Fili's death was done very well though. I'd say it's the darkest of all the deaths in all six movies, and it made me feel genuinely uncomfortable each time I watched it, which I wasn't expecting. I've said this before, but I also appreciated the lack of "NOOOOOOOO!"s. Those can work (like Frodo's for example), but the overall silence of the scene is what makes it work so well.

Kili's death comes close to being "ruined" by Tauriel's presence, but I still think it works. The performances and suspense were great, but taking Kili away from the rest of the dwarves just to wrap up the already unnecessary love story cheapened his death overall for me. But Tauriel getting up and throwing Bolg off the cliff is a great moment and a million times more exciting than the entire duel with Legolas.

Thorin's fight with Azog was a little disappointing. I think it's a combination of the intercutting between him and Legolas and some of the goofy ice stuff that took away some of the impact for me. But his final scene with Bilbo was one of the best in the whole trilogy, and in the end that's what mattered the most to me.


balbo biggins
Rohan


Jan 26 2015, 10:05pm

Post #7 of 26 (934 views)
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bit meh [In reply to] Can't Post

to be honest the whole thorin azog thing was a bit b movie. think of how gandalfs death played or boromirs they were incredible.

i quite liked fili and kilis , but i accepted them becuase i presumed it was building up to thorin.

I just think something a bit more gruesome, a bit more desperate, with the blackened skies of the bats would have been far better.

Im afraifd its im gonna say 'computer game' again, but everyone knows the snow levels on computer games are always the most boring and frustrating this part of the movie felt like that,.


Glorfindela
Valinor


Jan 26 2015, 10:17pm

Post #8 of 26 (920 views)
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I think they were very well done [In reply to] Can't Post

But I can't say that I liked them.Unimpressed

They make me feel upset.

For me, the whole duel sequence with Thorin and Azog was fantastically well done, and Thorin's scene with Blbo was incredibly moving.


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 26 2015, 10:53pm

Post #9 of 26 (901 views)
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I don't have a problem with how they were changed from the book [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm happy to see them work in their own way in this adaptation. But what didn't work for me was the lack of attention to Fili. We have seen over and over again that Dwarves are stout, incredible warriors, and Fili was amongst "Thorin's best". For him to then be shown afraid in a cave with nothing but sound around him, followed by simply being manhandled like a ragdoll and assassinated like that didn't click at all for me. I agree though that it was shocking. Perhaps not for the right reasons though.


(This post was edited by Bishop on Jan 26 2015, 10:55pm)


burrahobbit
Rohan


Jan 26 2015, 11:00pm

Post #10 of 26 (941 views)
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I think PJ overcomplicated things [In reply to] Can't Post

The move to Ravenhill was understandable in terms of PJ wanting a big 1 on 1 boss fight, and a change of pace in the very long battle. And I think Thorin's final scene with Bilbo was well acted.

But there were problems. In the book Thorin's last actions are in uniting all the races in a desperate last rally- "to me, elves and men...". There's symbolism in him falling shoulder to shoulder with his people, the elves and the lakemen- overcoming his former weaknesses (just like the Boromir's symbolism when he falls protecting Merry and Pippin). The symbolism of unity is further reinforced in the book by Thorin's funeral scene.

And there would have also been much greater meaning in Kili and Fili falling protecting their king, rather than another 1 on 1 boss fight. I found Fili's execution to be a rather cheap shot at upping the tension- it's The Hobbit, not Last of the Mohicans!

Also the emotional aspect of these scenes wasn't helped much by Legolas's increasingly ridiculous troll/bat riding, and ability to break basic laws of physics by getting a push up off falling stones.

Overall keeping this simpler for me would have made Thorin's death more poignant.


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 26 2015, 11:26pm

Post #11 of 26 (900 views)
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To me, Elves and Men [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, that's some epic stuff. It just has no place in this film, really. Thorin was always going to battle one on one with Azog in a brawny duel to the death. His "win" against Azog seems more like a yinyang story ender than a logistical victory though, as the eagles pretty much clean house once they arrive. Thorin "cutting the head off the snake" doesn't really amount to much in this sense; it's just the logical ending to the Thorin/Azog story.

I think a fair question is also what kind of power does really have Azog have once Sauron is out of the picture?


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 11:43pm

Post #12 of 26 (909 views)
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I did.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, so far as it's possible to 'like' something of that kind. I didn't want them to die at all, but given that they had to I thought the deaths were well staged. First, the decision to move that part of the action to Ravenhill, away from the main battle, made for a clearer scene in which it was possible to focus on what was happening to the brothers, then to Thorin. Then they had taken note of the fact that the deaths were supposed to be connected - so Fili and Kili were sent forward to scout by their uncle, who was not aware until too late how dangerous the tower was. It is a very loose interpretation of 'defending him', but at least the connection is there. Fili's death was sudden and brutal - war is like that - and it made it worse that Thorin and the others were looking on and could do nothing. Kili rushed up to avenge his brother - which was in character - and so he died, and it was awful, because we'd seen them go through all sorts of danger and survive. And Thorin's was heartbreaking at the end.

I think a lot of thought had gone into that and they staged them really well.


sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Jan 27 2015, 12:42am

Post #13 of 26 (849 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

there were other ways to do the one on one with Azog that would not have lost the importance of Thorin's changes.

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Me85
Rivendell

Jan 27 2015, 12:44am

Post #14 of 26 (882 views)
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as someone who has only seen the film once on Dec 9th [In reply to] Can't Post

I can't even remember how exactly Fili diedShocked.
I wasn't very affected by his death. Neither by Kili's death although more so than Fili's. I think it was partly because i was prepared for it, partly because I didn't really get attached to these characters (we didn't get to see much of Fili) and partly because their death was so quick.
Cried for Thorin though.


Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor

Jan 27 2015, 12:44am

Post #15 of 26 (867 views)
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What a surprise! [In reply to] Can't Post

But of course, I entirely agree with you. Smile

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


marillaraina
Rohan


Jan 27 2015, 1:42am

Post #16 of 26 (844 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I really liked the deaths here (not in that way)... But I mean, they're all unique. Fili's is a war-like death, as a threat, which makes it really I don't know how to explain it, I guess, effective because people die in war, so many innocent people trying to protect others. Kili's was sad, with Tauriel (I was so-so about her before, but after seeing BotFA she was great), and it wasn't too action-y. Yeah Thorin's was a bit action-y, but it sort of played out that he knew he was going to die, and when the scene where Thorin was just following him floating under the ice was really great. And a lot of people in the theaters with me shouted no at Kili's death, gasped at Fili's, and there was a lot of sniffing during Thorin's death scene(reading it in the book is amazing, but actually seeing it, it's one of the best scenes in a movie that I have ever seen). This wasn't really a death, but you could really tell that some people didn't read the book or watch AUJ because someone screamed when Bilbo got knocked out.


Hobbity Hobbit, I agree. I think their deaths were all extremely effective, and gave each of them an individual send off. They were very well done. I don't think having them both die protecting their king would have really worked as well as people imagine it. It built up the tension plus they each had an individual death moment and though the situations were all different, they were all brave in the way they were able to be. Fili in a way died for his family(thus in keeping with his focus much of the film), Kili died trying to help someone from another race(thus in keeping with his openness to the world outside that world outside the way he was raised) and Thorin died in a way which helped redeem himself and would benefit others as well.


(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jan 27 2015, 1:51am)


DisDwarfWoman
Rivendell

Jan 27 2015, 4:22am

Post #17 of 26 (789 views)
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couldn't agree more dormouse! [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CathrineB
Rohan


Jan 27 2015, 11:36am

Post #18 of 26 (764 views)
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Nope [In reply to] Can't Post

After the first time seeing the movie I hated what they did to Fili, but then eventually I figured it wasn't the actual death scene I hate. I hate that he's ignored completely the moment he's dead while the others' are shown again after their death. I'm not one of those saying Fili wasn't grieved - he was, just before he died because they knew where it was going. But not showing him but the others is downright ignoring him..

But his death is shocking and terrible. To silence a full theater (the one I was in has almost 1000 seats) is pretty amazing and haunting to experience.

Kili's death they slaughtered. Pull him away from his actually family for the sake of that forced love story? Unforgiving. I like Tauriel, but that's not the way to go to deal with any of those characters. Not to mention "Because it was real" was so cringeworthy I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

I liked Thorin's though. It was a cool setting. I think the problem with Ravenhill was the lead up. Thorin's experienced in war and yet he can't see a trap when it's so plainly obvious? And sends two (basically) kids in to check? Wow.


stoutfiles
Rohan


Jan 27 2015, 2:18pm

Post #19 of 26 (746 views)
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Fili [In reply to] Can't Post

Fili wasn't developed enough for me to care. Hell, they even threw him in a crevace so no one could cry over his body. Gloin got more character development than Kili.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jan 27 2015, 3:01pm

Post #20 of 26 (717 views)
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Crevasse? [In reply to] Can't Post

His body landed at Kili's feet.



Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jan 27 2015, 3:09pm

Post #21 of 26 (727 views)
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Yes and No [In reply to] Can't Post

"Like" is a strong word, and I can't say I "liked" them, only comment on whether I thought they were effective and well done. At first I didn't think Fili's death was well done, because it was so quick, but now I think that was how it was intended. Thorin was basically tortured by Fili's death, having to stand there and watch, unable to save his heir, knowing he'd sent his nephew to his death - in THAT sense it was effective. Also, I believe Fili did die defending his uncle - he told Thorin to run, he warned him of the danger; yes, that is defending as much as standing over a wounded body is. So in the long run Fili's death gets a passing grade; however I would have liked to see more of a fight before Azog dragged him out of the cave. Once again, that inane chorus of "maybe in the EE." UGH!

Kili's death isn't so favorable, IMO. I do like the fact that he initially charged up there to avenge his brother - really didn't see that one coming - and that Tauriel went up there to save Kili. But now you can't say he died defending his uncle, that clearly wasn't in his mind. And then he's distracted by Tauriel, and the two of them together couldn't take down Bolg. I can even live with that part, but the whole stabbing Kili in slow motion, his mouthing "I love you" (or whatever) while Tauriel watches grief-stricken, and the tear. Okay, the tear was a bit moving, knowing he would die and never be with his true love, but GAG ME, he should have been fighting with Thorin. Speaking of which....

Talk about effective and well done! The entire fight on ice scene was just incredible! However, it was so unrealistic that Azog jumped up out of the ice like that that it kind of slammed on the brakes, so to speak. Probably would have been better if, as Azog was sliding off the ice he'd lashed out and mortally wounded Thorin at THAT point. But the scene where Azog had Thorin pinned, and Thorin realized he was about to be killed, accepted it, and then lashed out himself, killing Azog, I mean, YES, that was effective and well done. Can't say enough about his final death speech, either. How anyone could have a dry eye during that scene is just beyond me, I'm getting teary-eyed just thinking about itUnsure So I guess two out of three ain't bad.

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


Arandir
Gondor


Jan 27 2015, 7:17pm

Post #22 of 26 (721 views)
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My biggest regret of this third film (longish read) [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, the Trilogy really hinged on this climax of the third film.

Unlike many who criticized the film overall, I enjoyed most of it.

Though my main concern was simply the middle part of the third act - the Azog/Bolg confrontation and the Dwarves' deaths.

It was essential to get this right and provide the emotional impact we were promised in the first two films.

Surprisingly however, PJ failed to do this by ignoring a number of things.

First of all...

The change in location
Whilst I can understand PJ's decision to move such a pivotal scene away from the chaos of battle (and I must admit the sequence was well played overall) it didn't have a powerful impact it should have had.

I am strongly against the shift - moving away from the battlefield: especially since we are no longer told what 's happening to the other Dwarves.

A real shame in my opinion.

Fili's undeveloped character
How? How on earth do you expect people to cry endlessly for a character's death, when he has had almost no exposition whatsoever and barely more than a handful of lines in three whole films (not to mention almost no screen time in the first two)?

But worst sin of all?

Completely forgotten in the aftermath of the battle. Thorin got a dose of Bilbo's farewell, and Kili got a Taurielian kiss and a philosophy on love. Meanwhile, FIli remains unheard and unseen of.

Here's hoping the rumoured funeral scene in the EE will fix that (unless he's completely forgotten ... again).

Separation of characters:
I always rooted for the book's version of events, where the two brothers die as a result of trying to help their mortally wounded uncle.

Instead, being away from the main battle and separating all 3 meant we were bound to see the much feared intrusion of Tauriel indirectly causing Kili's death when he tries to save her (instead of his uncle).

The whole trio death loses momentum, in my opinion, as we witness three deaths unfolding over the course of 15 minutes.

Instead, it should have been a proper last stand.

Separation of characters: Azanulbizar
Remember the Battle of Azanulbizar flashback in AUJ? You had Thror, Thrain and Thorin all fighting together back-to back in the thick of battle?

Imagine the same thing happening in The Battle of the Five Armies, with the three characters and the rest of the Dwarves fighting in front of the Gates of Erebor ...

Whatever "exposition" we got of each member of the Company, was lost - failing to witness each of the Dwarves' stories playing out (something that was promised in numerous interviews by the actors and PJ himself).

Thorin vs Azog: Ice-surprise-attack-cliche
It was bound to happen.

Not only was the ice-cube swinging moment (reminiscent of the Witch-king fighting Eowyn) somewhat dragged - where those precious minutes could have been better used to intercut some battle shots of the other characters - but it was predictable from the start that Azog would open his eyes and surprise Thorin from under the ice.

Thorin vs Azog: Wound-me-to-kill-you-cliche
Yet again perhaps my high expectations are to blame, but I always imagined a better last stand for Thorin - rather than having a "sacrificial" move to go for the kill (which feels almost superficial considering Thorin was almost bitten in two by a warg).

Notes from Boromir
I cannot fail to mention the case of Boromir's death.

Just looking at that character and his final scene, shows what PJ was capable of doing (multiplied by 3, or more). With Boromir, you had one film and an assured tear-jerked last 13 years later and counting.

Unfortunately, even analysing Thorin's fight separately, it doesn't come close to the FOTR ending - Why? I think one of the reasons goes back to the separation from the main battlefield.

Redeeming Factors
This is not to say everything's wrong with this third act.

Indeed, thanks to Freeman and Armitage's performances (accompanied by Shore's music), Thorin's farewell is an emotional moment - but could have been even more powerful had we witnessed the right build-up in the previous scenes.

Finally, it's out of my system Smile

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(This post was edited by Arandir on Jan 27 2015, 7:18pm)


Arannir
Valinor


Jan 28 2015, 10:26am

Post #23 of 26 (621 views)
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Storytelling failure [In reply to] Can't Post

Unfortunately.

I understand that they separated the deaths and each of them has something moving and they are not - themselves - badly handled. Actually, I really "liked" the execution moment (though Fili was simply way too badly introduced to make it really emotional).

But it imho totally destroys the structure of these 15 minutes.

The focus shifts away from the battle, the decision by Thorin to send Fili & Kili into Ravenhill makes no sense at all, the emotions get spread over way too many little climaxes, etc.

Also, I was disappointed by the weak music for these moments.


I made peace with the sequence because of MF's great moment when Thorin dies... and I think I might feel better once there is the funeral in the movie that somehow brings these three deaths to come kind of resolution.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



Saneliur
Bree

Jan 28 2015, 10:41am

Post #24 of 26 (618 views)
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Thorin's death was very well executed imo [In reply to] Can't Post

Thorin's death affected me the most (unexpectedly)

Fili's was great in a shocking/brutal kind of way

I really didn't like Kili's though. I was indifferent about it.


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


Jan 28 2015, 12:00pm

Post #25 of 26 (613 views)
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Parallels between other fantasy deaths [In reply to] Can't Post

In many ways I think Fili's death was the most effective, because of the sheer shock factor. I never cared for the Tauriel/Kili romance so that impacted my reaction to Kili's death scene in a negative way. Thorin's last words were every bit as moving as I hoped they'd be, but I was taken out of the film the first time due to the whole Azog under the ice thing. Thankfully somebody explained to me afterwards that it wasn't entirely implausible, which I wish I'd known beforehand!

But yes, Thorin's death made me think of the Mountain vs Oberyn fight in Game of Thrones. For a moment you wonder if the villain is dead...but you know what's coming, and this heightens the suspense considerably. It also made me think of the Balrog scene in FotR where Gandalf thinks for a moment that he's succeeded just before the whip comes flying upwards. Likewise, Thorin thinks he has vanquished his foe until Azog opens his eyes and stabs him through the ice.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf

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