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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Can we agree that everyone trusting Alfrid was silly? (BOTFA SPOILERS)
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Bishop
Gondor


Jan 26 2015, 3:17am

Post #51 of 84 (1275 views)
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It's still clear that Alfred is looking after the children [In reply to] Can't Post

The exchange is approximately

Alfred: You heard him, we go to the hall
Bard: Only women and children, we need men here (throws the sword). See that you return.
Alfred: I'll get them to safety sire

While you are correct that Bard orders Alfred to join the fight, he also understands that Alfred is going to bring them to the hall first.


Pandallo
Rivendell

Jan 26 2015, 3:45am

Post #52 of 84 (1261 views)
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Indeed. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't quite understand why this would be seen as a foolish thing to place him in charge of as he (or at maybe Bard's family coaxes him into it) does accomplish this judging by the amount of people flooding into the hall and he only breaks into a stride and pushes people out of the way when they are pretty much there.


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 26 2015, 4:14am

Post #53 of 84 (1255 views)
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I guess what I mean is this [In reply to] Can't Post

Bard knows that Alfred is incompetent and a bad person. On the shores of the lake Alfred acted like a complete lunatic, and Bard stops him from hitting a woman for a blanket just moments before his own son Bain physically knocks him on the ground. The fact that Alfred is a floundering opportunist low life and possibly a danger to other people is spelled out for the audience in so many ways.

Now, we agree that Bard agrees basically to let Alfred bring the kids to the hall, and then he's supposed to come back and fight. If Bard knows about what kind of man Alfred is, why does he possibly think it's a good idea to let him escort the kids anywhere in the middle of a battle ground? Alfred would probably sacrifice Bard's children if it meant saving himself. The man is a risk, a liability to those around him. He's not simply comic relief, he is presented as dangerous.

So essentially, Bard is foolish for allowing this. And of course we know he was foolish, because less than 5 seconds after Bard turns his back Alfred throws his sword away as if Bard is a total sucker.


moreorless
Gondor

Jan 26 2015, 4:43am

Post #54 of 84 (1253 views)
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Which is mostly limited to DOS.. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I know the film makers and Luke Evans have worried about an Aragorn stereo type but I think that is entirely needless. In Tolkien's world he is from the tribes of Men who lived in the vales of the Anduin in the 2nd and 3rd Age and would be "related" to the Eorlingas. They are not of the houses of the Edain. For Bard to remind you culturally of Eomer would have made a good deal of sense and the poor folk of Lake Town do remind you of the poor folk of Rohan.

In terms of his character placement he has a home, children and an occupation and is resigned to it. Aragorn had a destiny both book and film though the film tried to complicate his feelings about it.

What makes Bard entirely different to Aragorn is he has a specific relationship, because of his family history, with Smaug. There is a weight of guilt and yet unfair guilt laid upon him which the Master uses against him.

That guilt is manifest in his reaction to the Dwarves journey he doesn't want to revisit it. In the end he is an ordinary man doing extra ordinary things and his killing Smaug is an Arthur moment it sanctifies his right to lead and re established the Line of Girion made more noble because it was done with out any sense of ambition just because he had to. With Legolas in attendance by the Lake who had lived through all the years of this history he was the perfect one to recognise sanction and endorse his Kingship by the people. It would have been in keeping with the heroic world of Tolkien and would have taken a few minutes what the film repeated over and over again through action.

I thought the addition of Bain and in the specific scene was an excellent way to re in force that sense of the restored family re sanctified by their action. Post Lakeside its all noise for me. I loved Bard and Bain for what they did for their people and I thought the Master Alfrid got their comeuppance at the same time stop and move on Mr Jackson.


I would agree with all of that(with the dramatic differences being more important than his distant background) but the problem is that most of it is limited to DOS.

Theres a danger at during Bot5A that Bard starts to become another Aragorn. A lot of the scenes with Alfrid on the other hand don't just play off of Bards superior morals they also serve to highlight his remaining an "man of the people".

He rejects both Alfirds call for him to become King in the middle of a crisis and his desire to go after more of the gold than is needed to rebuild. Then finally he highlights Bards focus on family over Alfirds personal greed.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jan 26 2015, 5:22am

Post #55 of 84 (1247 views)
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Bard V Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

One scene which i am really looking toward to seeing again is that one between Thorin and Bard either side of the barricade. I will ignore Thorins promise to Bard because its in the previous film but for me Bard does not need to be contextualised by Alfrid at this point in the story, it is done brilliantly in his exchange with Thorin and reinforced by Bilbo. Bard wants help for his family and those whom he is responsible for whereas Thorin has become Smaug like and simply wants to hoard the gold unto himself.

Ironically I actually think I have thought more about that scene since watching the movie because I found myself distracted by the noises off i refer to. Being open minded when i have my final viewing in the cinema I will give your line of thought a go.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 26 2015, 8:45am

Post #56 of 84 (1216 views)
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Well, it's the middle of a battle, as you say. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think Alfrid is presented as doing anything particularly useful in going with the children to the hall (indeed weren't they about to go on their own when Alfrid offered to go with them?)

Bard knows Alfrid is a bit if a coward and says so, but I don't think it's obviously the case that the children are more in danger with him tagging along than without.

No doubt there were people Bard would have been happier with and might have added protection, but it's the middle of a battle, as you say.


moreorless
Gondor

Jan 26 2015, 8:45am

Post #57 of 84 (1230 views)
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Great scene I would agree and key to the story but... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
One scene which i am really looking toward to seeing again is that one between Thorin and Bard either side of the barricade. I will ignore Thorins promise to Bard because its in the previous film but for me Bard does not need to be contextualised by Alfrid at this point in the story, it is done brilliantly in his exchange with Thorin and reinforced by Bilbo. Bard wants help for his family and those whom he is responsible for whereas Thorin has become Smaug like and simply wants to hoard the gold unto himself.

Ironically I actually think I have thought more about that scene since watching the movie because I found myself distracted by the noises off i refer to. Being open minded when i have my final viewing in the cinema I will give your line of thought a go.


This is a great scene and really key to the story but I actually felt it was part of the reason we needed to be reminded of Bards qualities in the same film it happened in.

Why the scene works for me is exactly because Thorin's argument isn't entirely "wrong" in terms of why he's holding a grudge against Bard and the lake towners just as with the Elves. We need to see though that his holding grudges isn't morality justified and is whats leading him towards madness and the hold of the dragon sickness. The scenes with Alfird make it clear that Bard isn't power/gold hungery himself.


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 9:33am

Post #58 of 84 (1215 views)
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I think you're right - that's exactly the role Alfrid is playing.... [In reply to] Can't Post

He highlights Bard's leadership qualities. At the same Alfrid's ordinary greed for money and power is an important contrast to Thorin's dragon sickness. Alfrid provides an important contrast to Bard and to Thorin.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jan 26 2015, 10:06am

Post #59 of 84 (1211 views)
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Frodo/Gollum Bard/Alfrid [In reply to] Can't Post

By implication to elevate the Bard/Alfrid interaction to the same level as Frodo/Gollum shows just how far this discussion has travelled.in order to justify not only continuing the Bard/Alfrid plot line but the development of it.

The key relationship is Bard/Thorin they neatly elevated it by Thorin promising to help the Lake Towners when he is re established at Erebor. Thorin denies and dissembles that promise. Bilbo the non acquisitive one reminds him of this to argue Alfrid is crucial to explain that to the audience by showing his petty greed and opportunism as another form of contrasting bad behaviour is merely rationalisation.

However for my final viewing I will take notes on this because I remember the movie as Bishop does which is that Alfird is shown to have no moral compass and whilst Bard was wise to show him magnanimity he was naive and ridiculous to allow him so much influence over matters as it progressed towards Alfrid the cross dresser.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jan 26 2015, 10:16am

Post #60 of 84 (1202 views)
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See my post above [In reply to] Can't Post

and I am sorry but your second paragraph seems to be completely over thinking this. Thorin is wrong thats why Bilbo confronts him. The reason why Thorin behaves so badly is because the treasure of Erebor is tainted with the dragon sickness.

In the entire arc of Bard there isn't one shred of evidence of ambition or entitlement there is alway concern for his children and in a more general sense the down trodden of Lake Town.

When Bard rides to Erebor the audience is completely with him they do not need this endless reassurance of his motives. Alfrid is superfluous and I believe the real reason he was added in pick ups is nothing so complicated as you suggest but to provide some humour. Phillippa Boyens said in the commentary to DOS they loved Ryans work with Stephen and there will be more of the same humour.

I will however consider all of this as my final viewing unfolds I just know my instinct on previous viewings was why and why so dumb Bard.

Just one addition and then I will let this go. We have all this positioning for Bard through some believe Alfrid and yet there isn't even enough time in the movie to formally show that post battle Bard will become the restored King which is crucial to the history of the North.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 26 2015, 10:25am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 26 2015, 10:45am

Post #61 of 84 (1189 views)
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Elevation is probably a bit much I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the simpler point is that Jackson just tends to illustrate characters in comparison to a small number of others (often as tokens for peoples)


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 26 2015, 11:00am

Post #62 of 84 (1198 views)
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Um... [In reply to] Can't Post

As far as I'm concerned, the topic hasn't traveled anywhere, nor am I attempting to "justify" anything. I came, I read the OP, I gave my thoughts. And if it makes you any happier, I've already said elsewhere that I would happily trade some of his scenes for more of other things. I'm not trying to "elevate" Bard and Alfrid to the same level as Frodo and Gollum - I merely see echoes there of the theme of taking mercy on a character who does not deserve it, which is a quality Tolkien esteemed and gave to all his heroes, in their various circumstances and storylines.

Alfrid doesn't deserve a second chance, but he's not being given one because of his merits - he's being given a chance for repentance in spite of his faults. I don't see the "so much" influence over events given to Alfrid that you seem to. What turns out differently because of him?

If he kept an eye on Bilbo as Gandalf asked him to, I think Bilbo would have escaped anyway because he was determined to return to the Mountain.

I think Alfrid was put on watch as punishment/test (since they didn't have a mountain of potatoes to peel or anything like that), not as a position of trust. But even if he had stayed awake, the Elves would still have come, and would still have been allies. If Bard really didn't set more than one man to watch an entire town (even if he were a very trustworthy man), it would be terrible tactics. In this case, I choose to think that nobody noticed the very silent Elves coming in. A whole army came in and didn't wake anyone up? It was played for a laugh, and emphasized the stealth of Elves if anything. Bard certainly doesn't act furious at Alfrid when he sees them there - he just snarks at him about it. Trust betrayed would get a different response, I think.

Bard told his girls to go hide in the Hall and he told Bain to look after them, I think both to get Bain out of the battle but also because he didn't trust Alfrid. He also told Alfrid to get the wounded and women there (which he did - at least to the extent of yelling at everyone to go there while running there himself).

I've already said that I think handing Alfrid the sword was giving him a chance to redeem himself, which he didn't take (and immediately handed it back to Bain, who had already shown his quality in that area).

At best, I see Alfrid as ineffectual and a laughingstock (as I think he was meant to be), not as a trusted confidant or right-hand man.

Silverlode



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Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jan 26 2015, 12:01pm

Post #63 of 84 (1192 views)
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Trusting the greediest, least principled person with something very valuable... [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course it would never happen in real life "cough" Royal Bank of Scotland "cough"... Sorry, just clearing my throat. I expect that after the battle was won at the end of the film, Bard put Alfrid in charge of the Laketowners' share of the treasure. After Alfrid loses it in a bet, due to a "miscalculation", Bard gets Thranduil to bail Alfrid out, has a whip round in Dale to raise extra cash, which he uses to give Alfrid a big bonus and a pay rise, telling everybody else they'll have to live off turnips for a while. Things improve, Dale is rebuilt and people start depositing all their savings in Alfrid's coffers again, forgetting what a crap job he did last time. Alfrid gets drunk and heads down to the casino.... Repeat ad nauseum.

Trusting greedy crooks with your most treasured possessions - ridiculous, would never happen in real life! I feel a coughing fit coming on again...

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


dormouse
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 12:04pm

Post #64 of 84 (1172 views)
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*passes Bumblingidiot a cough drop...* // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jan 26 2015, 1:11pm

Post #65 of 84 (1169 views)
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Cheers! [In reply to] Can't Post

That helped a lot. I've stopped coughing and I'm now thinking of nice things, like kittens and the coming of Spring and have almost forgotten about my overdraft.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


moreorless
Gondor

Jan 26 2015, 4:13pm

Post #66 of 84 (1153 views)
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Again though the issue is your dealing with two films... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and I am sorry but your second paragraph seems to be completely over thinking this. Thorin is wrong thats why Bilbo confronts him. The reason why Thorin behaves so badly is because the treasure of Erebor is tainted with the dragon sickness.

In the entire arc of Bard there isn't one shred of evidence of ambition or entitlement there is alway concern for his children and in a more general sense the down trodden of Lake Town.

When Bard rides to Erebor the audience is completely with him they do not need this endless reassurance of his motives. Alfrid is superfluous and I believe the real reason he was added in pick ups is nothing so complicated as you suggest but to provide some humour. Phillippa Boyens said in the commentary to DOS they loved Ryans work with Stephen and there will be more of the same humour.

I will however consider all of this as my final viewing unfolds I just know my instinct on previous viewings was why and why so dumb Bard.

Just one addition and then I will let this go. We have all this positioning for Bard through some believe Alfrid and yet there isn't even enough time in the movie to formally show that post battle Bard will become the restored King which is crucial to the history of the North.


My point about Thorin is that he's "not wrong" in the sense that his grievance against the lake owners is somewhat based on reality. That is he was facing potentially being imprisoned or otherwise stopped from reclaiming what he viewed as his right before he made them the offer of sharing in the riches of Erebor. That's not to say Thorin is right to refuse Bards request but that he is putting forward an argument based on reality and not pure dragon sickness.

We do see that Bard's lack of desire for wealth and power highlighted in DOS but again your now talking a different film. You expect viewers to bring foreward some memory of the character but its not really out of the ordinary to reinforce that a bit.

I very much doubt it was a choice between more Alfird and showing Bard become King. The reason the reason for the cuts to the ending are I would guess a desire to keep it focused on Bilbo and Thorin rather than a need to keep to a mandated maximum length.


(This post was edited by moreorless on Jan 26 2015, 4:14pm)


mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien

Jan 26 2015, 6:32pm

Post #67 of 84 (1147 views)
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no he was not [In reply to] Can't Post

what a strange and silly thing to write


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 26 2015, 7:27pm

Post #68 of 84 (1115 views)
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It's not so much that he was supposed to do anything useful [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that Bard actually believed he would be helpful to the children. But we know that when he's backed into a corner he will kick people in the face, literally. Bard in fact saw Alfred about to hit woman for a blanket, and stopped him from doing it. There is no denying this. I would argue that to view Alfred as anything less than a dangerous liability where safety is concerned would be foolish.

Alfred is not a harmless baffoon. This is a fact and it is shown on screen clearly and precisely. Bard knows it, and he has seen it with his own eyes.

Letting Alfred do anything is a liability. For example suppose instead of Elves it had been Orcs that marched up into Dale during the night? Is the nightwatch a joke, not to be taken seriously? Bard KNOWS there are Orcs running around, unless his children magically forgot what just happened at the house the night before. So putting Alfred on night watch was perhaps a light punishment, but this doesn't negate the job as a meaningless triviality. And we know how that turned out. I suppose letting Alfred tag along with the Children to "get them to safety sire" seemed like a fantastic idea at the time, until of course he threw away his sword and started knocking elderly and cripples down on the ground as soon as Bard turned his back.


(This post was edited by Bishop on Jan 26 2015, 7:29pm)


Nolane
Bree


Jan 26 2015, 7:54pm

Post #69 of 84 (1120 views)
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Alfrid was terrible in BOTFA [In reply to] Can't Post

I did not think Alfrid was bad at all in DOS. In fact, I actually liked his character in DOS.
But then in BOTFA, he turns into an annoying miserable sack of garbage, who completely disrupts the serious tone of the movie time and time again. I am not sure why PJ felt the need to turn him into a buffoon, or why comic relief in such a serious movie was necessary to this degree at all. I was very pleased to hear that Alfrid may die in the Extended Cut, which would have brought cheers from the audience had it been in the theatrical cut.
The only part with Alfrid that even made me laugh at all was when he dumped the wood he was collecting on the old woman and said "Pull your weight!" The rest of his humor was jarring, unfunny and plain terrible.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 26 2015, 8:04pm

Post #70 of 84 (1098 views)
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I don't think we are supposed to think of Alfrid as dangerous [In reply to] Can't Post

He came across, and seemed to be presented as a comic if unpleasant bully. I can't see that scrabbling over a blanket would be an obvious read across to the in war situation - certainly it would have been the least of Bard's worries when surrounded by orcs. I also don't suppose he has much time to argue with him!

On the night watch, I'm sure we can't be supposed to imagine he is the only watcher can we?


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 26 2015, 8:10pm

Post #71 of 84 (1097 views)
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You don't see kicking a drowning person in the face [In reply to] Can't Post

Hitting someone for a blanket, and knocking down elderly and crippled people dangerous? Could you describe the nature of those actions and how they're not dangerous?


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 26 2015, 8:19pm

Post #72 of 84 (1090 views)
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Well - two points. [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly, as far as I recall Bard doesn't see either of those incidents but more broadly I don't think that is the overall presentation. The audience's response to Alfrid is a comic one and we are consistently asked to laugh at him, not to be afraid of him. I can't see the audience leaving with the impression of him as a threat - just an unpleasant bully.


Ilmatar
Rohan


Jan 26 2015, 8:32pm

Post #73 of 84 (1089 views)
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thing about Alfrid [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems to me that Alfrid was not intentionally, but "accidentally" dangerous. He didn't plan to cause others harm, but in every turn - if it served his own survival or otherwise benefited him - he grabbed every opportunity and didn't hesitate harming others, if they were on his way or had something he wanted. And in a war situation there's bound to be situations like that constantly, where you can either help others or help yourself. Alfrid always helped himself, no matter the cost for others.

So while not "evil" as such, I would not have trusted him with anything else than saving his own skin.


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 26 2015, 8:44pm

Post #74 of 84 (1084 views)
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I totally agree [In reply to] Can't Post

The presentation of Alfred as comical doesn't change the facts on the ground. Bullies who are willing to hurt other people for their own needs are dangerous by default, especially when their own lives are in danger.

Why did Bard let Alfred run off with his kids anyways? Why didn't he say "No, you stay with me and we're going to fight."?


Ilmatar
Rohan


Jan 26 2015, 9:02pm

Post #75 of 84 (1075 views)
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clarification [In reply to] Can't Post

Quoting myself for once:


Quote
So while not "evil" as such, I would not have trusted him with anything else than saving his own skin.


Well, I would trust him with performing mundane tasks that a Master's counselor can be expected to carry out. But I would not trust him with saving or guarding anyone's life, or anythin else that really matters.

It does seem like Bard put too much trust in him and gave him too many chances to serve his own interests.





(This post was edited by Ilmatar on Jan 26 2015, 9:03pm)

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