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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 4:44pm
Post #26 of 84
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are funnier and less predictable. Maybe PJ should consulted Cleese, Palin and co on writing Alfird.
Growth after all is not so much a matter of change as of ripening, and what alters most is the degree of clarity with which we see one another. -Edith Pargeter
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jan 25 2015, 5:19pm
Post #27 of 84
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I thought the orders were more minor punishments
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Than any great displays of trust (or in the last case in extremis). There was no shock on anyone's part when Alfrid didn't do a good job so I'm not sure I see the trust being particularly high in the first place.
Happy to be reminded of details if I'm hazy, though!
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 5:23pm
Post #28 of 84
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Thinking about such things leads to better films
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but only if people talk about them. I thought that was what forums were about, at least in part. It also builds more and better brain cells!
IMO the world exists on a continuum of people who prefer to focus on finding what's wrong with things and those who prefer to appreciate things as they are. The people on the far end of appreciating things as they are tend to be happier but without the ones who find fault, nothing would ever improve.
Most of us fall somewhere between the extremes, but wherever we fall, we need each other to do our best work and to enjoy it. And that's something to revel in.
Growth after all is not so much a matter of change as of ripening, and what alters most is the degree of clarity with which we see one another. -Edith Pargeter
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 5:29pm
Post #29 of 84
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Like when Gandalf put Pippin on watch as "reward" for throwing the stone down the well. But at least Gandlaf made it plain that was the point. If that was Bard's purpose, I missed the signs of that.
Growth after all is not so much a matter of change as of ripening, and what alters most is the degree of clarity with which we see one another. -Edith Pargeter
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jan 25 2015, 5:47pm
Post #30 of 84
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I thought telling him to take the night watch i.e. to get no sleep was particularly obvious to me. But perhaps it came across differently to others.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 6:06pm
Post #31 of 84
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Thank you for highlighting this from a given stand point. My story telling view is it was much easier for the Master To Die on the Lake and then close out all the Lake town plot line by the Lake with Bard Ex offico king, which he is any way when he goes to negotiate with The Dwarves.
However if we accept the plot as it is as a given reality, the idea as a parent myself that i would place my children in his hands just does not compute. For a start I would chose a woman its a natural instinct and one of the solid dependable "salt of the earth women" that you naturally trust in a crisis. I am surprised the two female script writers allowed that to happen.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 25 2015, 6:14pm
Post #32 of 84
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...seemed to confirm it, too. He did not look/sound too happy with that assignment.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 6:27pm
Post #33 of 84
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I know the film makers and Luke Evans have worried about an Aragorn stereo type but I think that is entirely needless. In Tolkien's world he is from the tribes of Men who lived in the vales of the Anduin in the 2nd and 3rd Age and would be "related" to the Eorlingas. They are not of the houses of the Edain. For Bard to remind you culturally of Eomer would have made a good deal of sense and the poor folk of Lake Town do remind you of the poor folk of Rohan.
In terms of his character placement he has a home, children and an occupation and is resigned to it. Aragorn had a destiny both book and film though the film tried to complicate his feelings about it.
What makes Bard entirely different to Aragorn is he has a specific relationship, because of his family history, with Smaug. There is a weight of guilt and yet unfair guilt laid upon him which the Master uses against him.
That guilt is manifest in his reaction to the Dwarves journey he doesn't want to revisit it. In the end he is an ordinary man doing extra ordinary things and his killing Smaug is an Arthur moment it sanctifies his right to lead and re established the Line of Girion made more noble because it was done with out any sense of ambition just because he had to. With Legolas in attendance by the Lake who had lived through all the years of this history he was the perfect one to recognise sanction and endorse his Kingship by the people. It would have been in keeping with the heroic world of Tolkien and would have taken a few minutes what the film repeated over and over again through action.
I thought the addition of Bain and in the specific scene was an excellent way to re in force that sense of the restored family re sanctified by their action. Post Lakeside its all noise for me. I loved Bard and Bain for what they did for their people and I thought the Master Alfrid got their comeuppance at the same time stop and move on Mr Jackson.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 25 2015, 6:36pm)
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annthanatos
Registered User
Jan 25 2015, 7:16pm
Post #34 of 84
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I think after so many scene of Alfrid and his survival at last with several pieces of treasure is to remind the audiences that MEN ARE WEAK. There will always be person like him and that is the reality. Evil will never be completely destroyed and that is the nature of human. So all elves left middle earth in the end then the age of human begins.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 25 2015, 7:41pm
Post #35 of 84
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But in the scene as written...
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...Bard starts by asking his own children to go, without any adult supervision, reliable or otherwise, to gather the other children , the women and the infirm, in the Great Hall and bar the door. And considering the approximate ages of Sigrid and Bain (I would guess, 16 and 13 or so) to me this seemed reasonable. They could be trusted to do this, and they could keep an eye on Tilda.
Alfrid stepped in, revealing he was nearby, when Tilda objected that she wanted to stay with Bard. I don't see any reason to suppose Alfrid would try to kill them - at worst, he would run off and leave them to do as Bard had asked, it seemed to me.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 7:50pm
Post #36 of 84
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Nice post. When I watch these films I go by instinct I do not have a pre conceived view I wanted these films to work. I also have no problem with adaptations or get wound up about changes. Book and Film are different medium and these are huge global films that have to cut across the world not to a specialist audience.
Everything I say on the forum is to try and look it through the lens of the general viewer but because of my long association with Tolkien whether the film portrays the spirit of Tolkien and a world of myth in a communicative way.
I think the addition of Bain and Alfrid reinforces Tolkiens basic narrative. But as a general point keeping on with proving Bard's heroism (goodness me wasn't the Dragon enough) and proving Alfrid was an obsequious stooge was unnecessary he could have been caught trying to take the gold away by stealth at the Lake. Repetition can be reinforcement but it can also devalue the original dramatic point.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 8:04pm
Post #37 of 84
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Thanks for your reply to clarify I would not put my children with anyone unsavoury even if they offered. Wormtongue and Eowyn.
Not only is he unsavoury but he repeatedly thwarted Bard and connived against him in Lake Town in a very specific and personal way and he and his son had to contrive matters because of Alfrids interference. Whereas in the EE "Salt of the Earth" characters supported him and the Dwarves.
Lets look at this simply did Alfrid support Bard or make life difficult for him in Lake Town. Based on those experiences would Bard accept Alfrids help with the vulnerable in the Lake town community.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 25 2015, 8:05pm)
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 9:09pm
Post #38 of 84
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But Alfrid tries to say he's in charge
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And the people rejected him. Wouldn't they do the same thing to the Master? I don't have a problem with Alfrid really I just think his role should have gone to the Master instead since he survived in the book (and I think all of his counselors died, so that's my reasoning for having Alfird be crushed by Smaug's body).
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Greenwood Hobbit
Valinor
Jan 25 2015, 10:29pm
Post #39 of 84
(741 views)
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the Bonnie and Clyde of Middle Earth! now there's a spin-off to ponder...
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 25 2015, 10:52pm
Post #40 of 84
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..Alfrid tries to push Bard forward in the film as the new Master (with himself as second-in-command) and Bard isn't having it.
If it were to follow the book, they would have had the Master almost rejected by the crowd and then talking them round, blaming Thorin for the destruction of Laketown. After that the Master's in charge in name with Bard actually organising everyone but insisting that he is still serving the Master. Then Bard sets off for the Mountain and the Master stays by the lake with the women and children. For the purposes of the film adaptation I think it was much simpler to do things the way they did.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 25 2015, 11:33pm
Post #41 of 84
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He wasn't so evil that he was crying out to be punished
Alfred is pretty much a murderer. Kicking someone in the face into the water, in the winter, in the middle of a burning village is pretty much a death sentence. I would argue that his cavalier attitude in doing it qualifies Alfred as 100% evil.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 26 2015, 12:12am
Post #42 of 84
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Thanks for the reminder of book plot DM. Given they filmed Stephen Fry surviving not only does it make me think his end is perfect EE material but given Ryan's post Smaug work is all 2013 material I wonder whether the Lake Towners were all going to return to Dale certainly Stephen Fry's Master wasn't.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 26 2015, 12:19am
Post #43 of 84
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Alfrid 2 Movie 3 Movie differences
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Bishop I think what you are highlighting there is the difference between plot lines which were filmed in Block 2 and Block 3 in 11/12 and the plot line added in May 2013.
If Ryan Cage wasn't at Lake Pukaki, and I was told several days ago he was not, then I suspect in the two movie script what you saw is the Master drowning Alfrid which feels right given his appalling behaviour you described a few moments before in the movie.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 26 2015, 12:21am)
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 26 2015, 12:30am
Post #44 of 84
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Just out of curiosity I'd love to see the 2 movie screenplay.
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Mcoull
Bree
Jan 26 2015, 1:20am
Post #45 of 84
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I don't see any reason to suppose Alfrid would try to kill them - at worst, he would run off and leave them to do as Bard had asked, it seemed to me.
He threatened to kill Hilda just because she didn't give him a blanket and he kicked someone off the barge abandoning them to death. Alfrid would most certainly use the children as bait or something to save his skin if the opportunity arose.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 26 2015, 1:34am
Post #46 of 84
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It can come across as if one has a pre occupation or 3 filmitus where anything 3 film is bad. I thoroughly enjoyed the needed prologue of DOS and the wonderful reintegration in the EE of Antony Sher's Thrain.
However I am increasingly seeing the impact of expeditious 3 film material added in pick up to finish AUJ and then filmed in a more serious pick up in 10 weeks from May 2013 and I regret saying it but much of it either distracts us from the key narrative or has a detrimental affect on the creative tension of the story telling. Just three examples :-
1) The Legolas/Bolg feud distracts the plot and main sub plot.
2) The Bard/Alfrid plotline extends far to long into the movie distracting us from the plot and subplot strands coming together
2) The repositioning of the Dol Gulder sub plots High Fells and Azog parachuted into Weather Top. Azog makes Sauron a forgone conclusion even before the White Council has met and renders the High Fells intel valueless.
When you look at the completed DG arc the nine serve one purpose and rightly in my mind to foreshadow that Sauron has returned by G discovering their tombs are empty. By the time Gandalf does a u turn and reaches the tombs we already know that through Azog. In the original screen play High Fells comes before Azog now its after.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jan 26 2015, 1:48am
Post #47 of 84
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Bwa..HA, HA, Ha, ha..haaaa..?///
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www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 26 2015, 2:03am
Post #48 of 84
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Bard displays the mercy all of Tolkien's heroes possess.
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The Bard/Alfrid relationship is not so different from Frodo/Gollum in that way. Gollum was highly untrustworthy and treacherous, but Frodo had both pity for him and held out hope that he could be redeemed, and also knew that Gollum's own self-interest and attachment to the Ring provided leverage to make him useful - to a point. Bard's attitude toward Alfrid strikes me as pretty similar, minus the complication of the Ring.
Bard saved him from the townsfolk, and then Alfrid, being the practiced rider of leaders' coattails that he is, instantly attaches himself to Bard. Keeping Alfrid close and finding him things to do is the best way to make sure he isn't going to get himself lynched, and also to make sure he isn't causing too much mischief...and to allow him a chance at redemption if he'll only take it.
Alfrid steps up to accost Gandalf when he arrives with a show of being in charge, and Gandalf doesn't know him, so it's not shocking that Gandalf later asks him to find Bilbo a bed and food and watch him. He does the first two. But honestly, even if he had watched Bilbo he'd have got out and gone where he wanted because he had the Ring. Nobody could have stopped that. Gandalf couldn't stop Bilbo from going to Ravenhill later.
Alfrid is told to take the night watch. As others have said, that's the job nobody wants. And yes, he fails at it. But the Elves were not only stealthy, but arriving from a very different direction than the expected threat. It's not quite the same as missing a threat from the Mountain, which is what he was set to watch for. I also suspect there were probably a few other people at least awake, if not officially on watch, in different parts of the town as well, but nobody saw or heard anything.
Bard didn't put Alfrid in charge of taking care of his kids. It's Bain that Bard tells to look after the girls - Alfrid's just supposed to get everyone unable to fight inside the Hall and the doors barred. Alfrid is all about the self-preservation, so sending him to lead people to hide...yep, he'll do that. And if he wants to stay "in" with Bard and keep his Chief Toady position, he'd better not leave his leader's kids behind (and he doesn't). Handing him the sword was giving him his chance to step up, but instead he dresses up as a woman to get out of it - and is caught out by the women who are stepping up.
In Alfrid's last scene, Bard, looking entirely unsurprised, let him go. So no, I don't think he ever expected Alfrid to make a turnaround. But he was shown mercy and given a chance. Alfrid's fate, whatever it is, is on his own head now.
Silverlode
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 26 2015, 2:27am
Post #49 of 84
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But one questions what is going on when he entrusts Alfred to lead his children to safety in the dead center of a battle ground. He even gives Alfred a sword before he takes off, and as soon as Bard is out of sight he throws it at Bain. Why would Bard gamble with his children's lives with such a clearly incompetent fool?
(This post was edited by Bishop on Jan 26 2015, 2:31am)
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jan 26 2015, 3:05am
Post #50 of 84
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What he says is something to the effect of "get the women and children to the main hall." Then he looks at Alfrid and says; "Only the women and children. We need every bodied man here, Alfrid."
I don't recall him ever explicitly putting his children in Alfrid's charge.
I could be mis-remembering the scene thought.
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