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**LotR I.7 – In The House of Tom Bombadil** 1. “Fear nothing! For tonight you are under the roof of Tom Bombadil.”

squire
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 1:18am

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**LotR I.7 – In The House of Tom Bombadil** 1. “Fear nothing! For tonight you are under the roof of Tom Bombadil.” Can't Post

Welcome to this week’s Reading Room chapter discussion of The Lord of the Rings! We will be reading and talking about Chapter 7: “In The House of Tom Bombadil”. I will have to assume you have read the text, as I cannot reproduce it here for copyright reasons. I will provide specific quotes or passages wherever it seems necessary.

Our Story So Far
You may remember that the previous chapter ended on the doorstep of Tom’s house. The four hobbits had been rescued from Old Man Willow by the unexpected appearance of Tom Bombadil, an outrageously colorful character in the form of a short, stout, bearded old man in big boots and a tall crowned hat with a feather. He spoke or sang largely in nonsense-verse, but he quickly defeated the Willow in a way that suggested he was a being of tremendous spiritual, or magical, power. He then invited or commanded the stunned hobbits to follow him up the river-path to his house. As darkness fell, Tom went on ahead; the hobbits were nearly overcome by the evil spirit of the Old Forest again, but then they suddenly emerged from the wood into a hilly land of cropped grass, ranging downs (or hills), and a bubbling brook that had been the bewitched river Withywindle. Tom’s house was ahead, up the hill. As they approached, the door was thrown open, light spilled out into the darkness, and they heard Tom’s cheerful greeting and another, more musical voice, singing of the power of the landscape itself. “And with that song the hobbits stood upon the threshold, and a golden light was all about them.”

The Story This Week
Rather than read through the chapter from beginning to end, I would like to structure this discussion around various themes that seem important to the author, or to me. As I always do, though, I encourage you to ask questions of your own, if it seems like I’ve missed a subject that interests you.
Here is my plan for the week, with the themes that I want to explore identified for each day in the discussion:
  1. Monday: House. Shelter, food, hospitality.

  2. Tuesday: Identity. The question on everybody’s mind may be who or what is Tom, but we may also ask who is Goldberry -- and who are the hobbits.

  3. Wednesday: Place: Specific. Tom’s land.

  4. Thursday: Place: Universal. Light, Time, and Weather.

  5. Friday: Place: Outside. Song, Stories and Dreams.

Inevitably these themes will lead to overlap and duplication in discussing specific passages in the chapter. I’m OK with that, and hope you are too!
My next post will begin the thematic discussion, but what would a RR post be without questions. So here are

A few questions to start with
This chapter begins without interruption from the end of the previous one. The last sentence of chapter 6 and the first sentence of chapter 7 could even be placed within a single paragraph. “…a golden light was all about them. The four hobbits stepped over the wide stone threshold…”
A. Where else in The Lord of the Rings does Tolkien do this?

B. What is the function of a “Chapter” in a book like this?

Where did the horses go? Or in this case the ponies. At the end of chapter 6, the hobbits appear not to be riding, but to be walking (with “leaden” legs) to Tom’s. Then they all (“hobbits and ponies”) hurry forward towards the brightly lit open door. After that, except for Goldberry’s remark about Tom tending their tired beasts, we never hear of them again until the departure at the beginning of chapter 8.
C. Do the ponies really exist or are they a device of convenience that the author forgets about most of the time?

The hobbits spend two nights at Bombadil’s, mostly listening to Tom. At one point Frodo is confused as to how many days and nights have passed since Tom began talking.
D. Since what Tom says is described, not written out, could the purposes of the chapter have been accomplished in one night, or three?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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(This post was edited by squire on Jan 26 2015, 1:18am)


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 26 2015, 2:06am

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thresholds [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
This chapter begins without interruption from the end of the previous one. The last sentence of chapter 6 and the first sentence of chapter 7 could even be placed within a single paragraph. “…a golden light was all about them. The four hobbits stepped over the wide stone threshold…”
A. Where else in The Lord of the Rings does Tolkien do this?






The end of the last chapter/beginning of this.
The end of this chapter/beginning of the next.
The end of The Bridge of Kazad-Dum/the beginning of Lothlorien.
The end of Lothlorien/beginning of The Mirror of Galadriel.


I'm sure there are more. But these places (Tom's House, and Lothlorien) are out of time, and similar in that way. I don't know what that has to do with the chapter transitions, but it is interesting.



Quote
The hobbits spend two nights at Bombadil’s, mostly listening to Tom. At one point Frodo is confused as to how many days and nights have passed since Tom began talking.
D. Since what Tom says is described, not written out, could the purposes of the chapter have been accomplished in one night, or three?






Probably. But Frodo has two dreams, one each night, important dreams. We will probably get to that.


a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jan 26 2015, 3:55am

Post #3 of 20 (4474 views)
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Interesting short point [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. Monday: House. Shelter, food, hospitality.

Their step over the threshold into Bombdil’s house WAS on a Monday (dusk). (That’s a Middle-earth Monday.)


In Reply To
The hobbits spend two nights at Bombadil’s, mostly listening to Tom. At one point Frodo is confused as to how many days and nights have passed since Tom began talking.

Yes, Frodo seems confused (bewitched?). The significant sentence is – Whether the morning or evening of one day or of many days had passed Frodo could not tell. I have always found this an interesting sentence as the Hobbits were at Bombadil’s for just one day and two nights.

Thanks Squire,
getting late here.
BG




Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 4:18am

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Yes that altered perception of Time [In reply to] Can't Post

In Tom's house. I have to get up early but I wanted to agree with this.

I find that I think of Tom and his little realm as outside, or maybe on a different speed as mortal Time. That might explain Frodo's feelings as well as one reason the Ring has no effect on Tom: extension of existence in one that is Timeless has no meaning.

More soon! Its late here too.








sador
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 11:57am

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Using the cheat-book [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Where else in The Lord of the Rings does Tolkien do this?
Let's consult Curious' list:

BOOK I

1. Chapters 4, A Short Cut to Mushrooms, and 5, A Conspiracy Unmasked:

Quote
"Suddenly Frodo laughed: from the covered basket he held, the scent of mushrooms was rising. ‘Now we had better get home ourselves,’ said Merry."



2. Well, arguably chapters 5-6, The Old Forest:

Quote

He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder. Frodo woke suddenly.

The light in the sky and thunder Frodo dreams of correspond to Merry's knocking with a candle. But in this case, the separation between the dream and the waking is clear and natural.

3. The present one, of course.

Book II

4. Chapters 4, A Journey in the Dark, and 5, The Bridge of Khazad-dûm:

In Reply To

Gimli cast his hood over his face. The Company of the Ring stood silent beside the tomb of Balin.



5. Arguably, chapters 5-6, Lothlórien:

Quote

The drum-beats faded. 'Alas! I Fear we cannot stay here longer,' said Aragorn.

But surely a break (even if an artificial one) was needed here! And you can argue that some time had passed between the fading of the drum-beats and Aragorn's raising the fellowship.

Book III
6. Chapters 5, The White Rider, and 6, The King of the Golden Hall:

Quote

'Ride on!' They rode on through sunset, and slow dusk, and gathering night.


Perhaps this isn't a great example. It is also one I didn't think of before looking up Curious' post, so I really don't mind if you don't count it.

Chapters 8 and 9 (The Road to Isengard and Flotsam and Jetsam) also begin at the point their presecessors (Helm's Deep, and The Road to Isengard) ended; but there is a clear break between the chapters, so they don't count.

7. However, I think the end of chapter 9 fits neatly with the opening of chapter 10, The Voice of Saruman:

Quote

'But it is not a very cheerful sight.' They passed through the ruined tunnel and stood upon a heap of stones, gazing at the dark rock of Orthanc, and its many windows, a menace still in the desolation that lay all about it.



BOOK IV
8. Chapters 1, The Taming of Sméagol, and 2, The Passage of the Marshes:

Quote
Over all the leagues of waste before the gates of Mordor there was a black silence. Gollum moved quickly, with his head and neck thrust forward, often using his hands as well as his feet.

This one I didn't remember either; but the first chapter does not flow as seamlessly into the second. Still, I should have got it.

9. Chapters 6, The Forbidden Pool, and 7, Journey to the Cross-roads:

Quote
He rose and bowed low to Frodo, and drawing the curtain passed out into the cave. Frodo and Sam returned to their beds and lay there in silence resting for a little, while men bestirred themselves and the business of the day began.

This one I missed.

10. Chapters 7 and 8, The Stairs of Cirith Ungol:

Quote
The Sun dipped and vanished, and as if at the shuttering of a lamp, black night fell. Gollum was tugging at Frodo's cloak and hissing with fear and impatience.


Thius one I guessed, but wasn't sure if the two chapters did flow into each other.

11. Chapters 8 and 9, Shelob's Lair:

Quote

'Not yet.' It may indeed have been daytime now, as Gollum said, but the hobbits could see little difference, unless, perhaps, the heavy sky above was less utterly black, more like a great roof of smoke; while instead of the darkness of deep night, which lingered still in cracks and holes, a grey blurring shadow shrouded the stony world about them.

As above - I thought they would fit but wasn't sure.

In book V there is no such flow - the tory just hops between several storylines; and in book VI there is one or two such 'thresholds' - which were the first I actually thought of (naturally, considering that I led a discussion of that chapter):

12. Chapters 1, The Tower of Cirith Ungol, and 2, The Land of Shadow:

Quote
Out of the black sky there came dropping like a bolt a winged shape, rending the clouds with a ghastly shriek. Sam had just wits enough left to thrust the phial back into his breast.


And last:
13. Chapters 2 and 3, Mount Doom:

Quote

Then he pitched down into a shallow pit that opened unexpectedly before them, and there he lay like a dead thing. Sam put his ragged orc-cloak under his master’s head, and covered them both with the grey robe of Lórien; and as he did so his thoughts went out to that fair land, and to the Elves, and he hoped that the cloth woven by their hands might have some virtue to keep them hidden beyond all hope in this wilderness of fear.


B. What is the function of a “Chapter” in a book like this?
Well, all these 'thresholds' do indicate a change in atmosphere.

C. Do the ponies really exist or are they a device of convenience that the author forgets about most of the time?
Ha!
Well, for one thing, riding beasts (and burden beasts) clearly are 'a device of convinience', aren't they?

But I get your point. It connectes with the nearly-complete absence of other animals in Middle-earth. After the fox, and Maggott's dogs, and horses - whet do we have? Bombadil tells stories about badgers, two conies in Ithilien, there are flies in the Midgewater and in Mordor, birds in Hollin and the Great River - and I suppose they do exist elsewhere, since Gollum does comment sadly about their absence in the Dead Marshes.
But there should have been more!

D. Since what Tom says is described, not written out, could the purposes of the chapter have been accomplished in one night, or three?
Yes; but Frodo needed to have both dreams.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 3:14pm

Post #6 of 20 (4438 views)
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Two Nights at Tom's, and no questions answered [In reply to] Can't Post

(Two Nights at Tom's are much more restful than Five Nights at Freddie's).

I don't have a satisfying answer as to why the hobbits stay 2 nights. Frodo certainly has 2 important dreams, one ending in waking in anxiety, and the other a peaceful image. The second dream seems in some ways to answer the first - but is it important that they are separate nights?

One thing I do notice is that Frodo is glad of the rain on Day 2 - and we learn that he is struggling to find the courage to go on again, something that is not such a problem after a day of rest. Or is the idea that it's his second dream that gives him the strength to carry on?

Tom's is also - as others have already remarked - an odd, timeless place - something it has in common with future bolt-holes Rivendell and Lorien: also places for reflection rather than action.

I think the specific effect of Toms storytelling on the hobbits is a kind of "enchantment" - the word that Tolkien used for magic as a sort of super-realistic art, which is not intended as deceptions but which could completely envelop the senses of those experiencing it. But it's not clear how much of that the hobbits might regard as magic. There's a lovely passage where Tom is describing the early ages, before the sun and Moon - and his audience find they are listening by starlight. But that might be simply that the tales have gone on into the evening. Then a shadow passes the door as the Dark Lord is mentioned. But that only turns out to be Goldberry coming in. So is this "just" like an experience many of us must have had - engrossed in a book or other experience, and startled when something outside it seems to chime with it? Or is there more than that?

Another odd thing, perhaps related - have you noticed how Frodo keeps asking questions and gets straight answers to none of them? Twice he asks The Question (you know the "who is...?" question we're not discussing yet.). He also asks whether Tom met them by chance. Each time he gets a "what do you think?" kind of answer - I wonder whether that is significant? Is Tom's - in some sense - a place where you can't ask questions?

Frodo has one more unanswered question - on Evening 1 he asks about Old Man Willow - and on this occasion the discussion is vetoed by Merry & Pippin: too scary a story for bedtime. Tom's rainy day storytelling fills Frodo in the next day- Tom doesn't answer the question specifically; he tells stories and Frodo is invited once again to draw his own conclusions.

There is also a possible Rather Boring Explanation for the 2-night stay, depending upon "the ends old plots": I'll offer it, though I think it might be a partial explanation at best (I rather hope that I am failing to see some other reason, & will find out about it this week!).

Nevertheless:

I suppose it's possible that Tolkien was simply retaining some aspects of time-scales he set up in earlier drafts. If I recall, the 3-day detour through the Old Forest, Bombadil's and the Barrows is unchanged in duration from a time when Tolkien had not yet inserted material that is now Shadow of the Past. At that point, delay at Bombadill's did have a plot purpose. The timelines then ran such that Gandalf has left the Shire only a little ahead of Frodo (at that point "Bungo") and his friends, having arranged to meet them in Bree. The development that the Ring might be very dangerous is - in these drafts - something that has only just occurred whilst the hobbits are on the road. It has become impractical for Gandalf to wait in Bree ow he has discovered that Black Rinders are about, so Gandalf has left a letter with Strider (at that point "Trotter") setting up a rendezvous at Weathertop on a specific date. At that point in the story's genesis, it's the hobbits' 3-day delay that causes this rendezvous to fail: they get to Bree later than Gandalf anticipated, so can't get to Weathertop on time. Gandalf's movements were then revised repeatedly, and various other changes made so that we lose the explicit invitation to a meeting on Weathertop (tough Strider & the hobbits go there still, of course). In the final timelines I think it no longer matters whether the hobbits stay at Toms for 2 nights or a fortnight, or push straight on for Bree. But maybe Tolkien had visualised the events at Toms by that time, had no need to change them, and so didn't?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 3:37pm

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This chapter has a very distinct colour-palette: any idea why? [In reply to] Can't Post

(I don't think this fits into one of the themes we're doing later, so hope it doesn't pre-empt anything by raising it now.)

Reading the chapter in preparation for this discussion, I was struck by the repeated use of certain colours.

Once over the golden threshold, the visitors see Goldberry - yellow hair, green gown "shot with silver like beads of dew" and with a "belt of flag lilies set with the pale blue eyes of forget-me-nots".
There are green and brown earthenware bowls at her feet with white water lillies

We've already established a similar colour scheme - blue brown yellow - for Tom.

The house is pleasant for hobbits, and continues these clours and materials - low rush-seated chairs (so brown, unless dyed); wide earthenware basins, brown ewers, soft green slippers. Their room has white woollen blankets an yellow curtains.

Even the food is described in terms of colours, which are again yellow, white, and green:


Quote
'Here is my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green with flowers in her girdle! Is the table laden? I see yellow cream and honeycomb, and white bread and butter; milk, cheese, and green herbs and ripe berries..."


And one more - in the rain:

Quote
Frodo stood near the open door and watched the white chalky path turn into a little river of milk and go bubbling down into the valley


After the rain, Goldberry has changed to an outfit of silver and white, Tom wears blue and green.

So - some colours being repeated quite prominently, mostly echoing the colours of Goldberry as we first see her. They are all the colours of earth, water and vegetation. Somehow I think there is more to this than an obsession with colour-matching accessories, but I don't know what.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 26 2015, 5:58pm

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Thank-you for getting us off to a great start! [In reply to] Can't Post

I've managed to get here before the end, so I'll try to add something of worth to this discussion.

A. Where else in The Lord of the Rings does Tolkien do this?{Pick-up the story continuity of the last sentence of a chapter in the first sentence of the next.}

I'm not really sure. I remember that after the meeting of Merry at the Ferry {<--Look! I made a rhyme!Angelic}, there is one, but I hardly noticed it until you mentioned it.

B. What is the function of a “Chapter” in a book like this?

Well, consulting the list compiled by Curious, it seems that in each case, there is some kind of dramatic pause given to the tale-- a bit of time to think and reflect on the events of the chapter before the adventure whisks you forward to a new place.

Also, IIRC, somewhere, wasn't it said of/by Tolkien, that his stories were meant to be rich in language and pleasing to the ear when read aloud? I could be mis-remembering, but if so, these chapters, read in the style of a serial, do have the effect of re-grounding the listener/reader in the tale and establishing a continuity of transition from the previous chapter. In many ways, I think it links the larger tale-- only split into chapters for convenience-- together as one cohesive story, and allows one to quickly find their place upon their return to the world of Middle-Earth, as well as providing convenient stopping points.

I know some authors write chapters into the tale in case they are read in a 'chapter-a-night' style, but I never got that sense from LotR. The Hobbit, yes, as it was children's tale, and thus written to be suited for a bedtime story, I think. Others write them to stop at dramatic climaxes, encouraging the readers to push ahead, but neither did I get this feeling from LotR, either. These early chapters, I more readily associate with the former variety of chapter division, but I think that is the transition from The Hobbit 2 to the epic tale of LotR. The episode of the trip and pursuit of the hobbits through the Shire, the Old Forest, and--coming later-- the Barrow Downs are more able to be labeled as independent story arcs, similar the the chapters of The Hobbit, but that similarity seems to begin to end in this chapter.

Up 'til now, the story has been, light-hearted and the hobbit have strolled along, meeting Elves, singing about bath water, laughing, and being saved from a nasty, wicked tree by an odd fellow. In this chapter, however, I begin to detect the shift to a more perilous sort of adventure. Tom's hints and remarks concerning the history of the forest and Arda begin to tell me that this venture of Frodo's is in earnest mortal peril. While the premise-- destroy a dangerous magical ring-- could be handled in a more fairy-tale manner (like that of slaying a dragon in The Hobbit), the depth of history and ominous tone tell me it is not. This is all setting up the Council scene where the full import of the Ring is revealed.


Where did the horses go? Or in this case the ponies. At the end of chapter 6, the hobbits appear not to be riding, but to be walking (with “leaden” legs) to Tom’s. Then they all (“hobbits and ponies”) hurry forward towards the brightly lit open door. After that, except for Goldberry’s remark about Tom tending their tired beasts, we never hear of them again until the departure at the beginning of chapter 8.
C. Do the ponies really exist or are they a device of convenience that the author forgets about most of the time?

Well, I always thought the idea of walking and leading ponies reinforced the idea of weariness and need of rest. The ponies are so spent and scared, that even they need a break from toil and trouble. It recalled the image of 'lonely travelers from afar' leading their horses or camels across a barren landscape-- one look and you knew they had come far, and suffered much hardship to get here.

Also, I had imagined (righthly or wrongly) that--like Beron's house--, Bomabadil's was animal-friendly, and the horses were able to enter too. It would have been hard for them to clear the threshold if they were riding. The hobbits might have hit their head on the lintel!

The hobbits spend two nights at Bombadil’s, mostly listening to Tom. At one point Frodo is confused as to how many days and nights have passed since Tom began talking.
D. Since what Tom says is described, not written out, could the purposes of the chapter have been accomplished in one night, or three?


I get a feeling of Lothlorien echoed here. Time is not allowed to intrude on the lives of those under the protection of the patron of the house, and neither is any worry or harried feeling welcome. I think to Goldberry's description of Tom simply being 'Master'. He is master of his own land and home, and nothing is able to disobey him or trouble his guests. I think the ambiguous measure of time here is to show just this.

Oddly enough, I see a kind of parallel to Gandalf in Bombadil. To the Shire-folk, Gndalf is a wandering conjurer and pyrotechnic expert, but if we look closer we can glimpse more of his true power. So too do we glimpse Bombadil's true existence as 'Eldest'-- immeasurably old and wise. However, that power is hidden and cloaked in simple enjoyment and joviality. I think Tom here is a very good picture of what Tolkien thought powerful beings should be: not domineering and foisting their pattern on others, but joyful and kind, blending with the world restricting thier power to their own sphere of influence.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 26 2015, 6:01pm

Post #9 of 20 (4419 views)
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Plant obsession? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
C. Do the ponies really exist or are they a device of convenience that the author forgets about most of the time?
Ha!
Well, for one thing, riding beasts (and burden beasts) clearly are 'a device of convinience', aren't they?

But I get your point. It connectes with the nearly-complete absence of other animals in Middle-earth. After the fox, and Maggott's dogs, and horses - whet do we have? Bombadil tells stories about badgers, two conies in Ithilien, there are flies in the Midgewater and in Mordor, birds in Hollin and the Great River - and I suppose they do exist elsewhere, since Gollum does comment sadly about their absence in the Dead Marshes.
But there should have been more!

I think the focus on flora over fauna is very telling. To me, it indicates Tolkien's profound love of nature and trees over aught else. The stunning landscapes drawn in LotR are proof of that, but what might it mean?


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


squire
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 7:50pm

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Thank you - yes, color (colour?) makes for an interesting set of choices. [In reply to] Can't Post

I would suggest that these colors you've identified as prominent in Tom's (and Goldberry's) House are the "Good" colors in Middle-earth in general. I think the missing palette here - purple, black, and red - is more typically found in the "Bad" areas. There are a few exceptions, of course - see the black livery of Elendil, representing the untainted good of the night sky before Morgoth, and the cheerful red curtains in the Prancing Pony - but it's a good general rule.

Why? I think the two-thirds of the color wheel and the lighter shades are associated with sunlight, and its effects. Sunlight produces vegetation (yellow-green) and skylight (blue-white) and the reflections of day light in water and the noble metals (blue-white-silver-gold). The darker tones (purple-red-black) go with the darkness of night and stormcloud and red fire and blood. What's a wonder is that Tolkien manages to avoid making Middle-earth look like a cartoon in our minds' eyes, unlike some illustrators of his world.

The dun tones of grey and brown are fairly neutral in this scheme - brown is pretty unavoidable in any natural setting, and grey is the ultimately ambiguous "color", since it takes its value by comparison with what it's next to. Notice that grey occurs a lot in this chapter, to describe the rainy day weather and mist, and also to describe the willow. I think that Tolkien tends to throw silver in as a substitute for grey when he wants it to be a particularly positive tone!

I was going to develop some of this when we got to the theme of Light, but not like you did. Thanks for adding it!



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 26 2015, 10:27pm

Post #11 of 20 (4407 views)
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what a splendid reply! meanwhile, i think we avoid putting everyone into team strips by working the other senses so well... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think Tolkien avoids the feeling that everything is colour-coded, or that there are team strips, like football, by using other senses so much. For example; notes for the Foley artist doing Goldberry:


Quote
...And as she ran her gown rustled softly like the wind in the following borders of a river."

[Or (Goldberry off to bed)]:

The sound of her footsteps was like a stream falling gently away down the hill over cool stones in the quiet of night.


Her very presence is liquid, that daughter of the River.

As well as the evocation of sound here, the is of course the sound of the words used to evoke the sounds: I don't think (though I would be intrigued to be corrected) that cool stones sound any different to ones at everyday temperature. But the sound of the word and its connotations do their synaesthesic work here....

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Terazed
Bree

Jan 27 2015, 1:23am

Post #12 of 20 (4416 views)
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Three days not two Nights: [In reply to] Can't Post


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The hobbits spend two nights at Bombadil’s, mostly listening to Tom. At one point Frodo is confused as to how many days and nights have passed since Tom began talking.
D. Since what Tom says is described, not written out, could the purposes of the chapter have been accomplished in one night, or three?


It looks like most of what I want to say is going to need to wait till later in the week given the order of topics but I think I might be safe to bring up a few points. I think the three chapters, The Old Forest, In the House of Tom Bombadil, and The Fog on the Barrow-Downs, make up one whole so perhaps it might be better to say three days rather then 2 nights. A journey into a dark wood tends to be used as a metaphor for a journey of introspection and into one's subconscious. This journey for the hobbits start when they enter the forest through the gate and ends with them emerging in a way newborn from a tomb into the sunlight and running naked on the grass. A thought occurs to me of the traditional period of deepest introspection in the catholic church with it's prelude being the washing of feet and stripping of the alters on Maundy Thurday and ends on Easter Sunday. It is just a thought but remember that A Conspiracy Unmasked features a bath and a feast and ends with Frodo's dream. The next day Old Man Willow figuratively draws them into the earth or water and two days later they emerge into daylight again.

Let me use a quote from a different story that begins with a middle aged man lost in a wood on Good Friday and ends with him emerging from the depths on Easter Sunday;


Quote
In the middle of the journey of our life, I came to myself, in a dark wood, where the direct way was lost. It is a hard thing to speak of, how wild, harsh and impenetrable that wood was, so that thinking of it recreates the fear. It is scarcely less bitter than death: but, in order to tell of the good that I found there, I must tell of the other things I saw there.

I cannot rightly say how I entered it. I was so full of sleep, at that point where I abandoned the true way. But when I reached the foot of a hill, where the valley, that had pierced my heart with fear, came to an end, I looked up and saw its shoulders brightened with the rays of that sun that leads men rightly on every road. Then the fear, that had settled in the lake of my heart, through the night that I had spent so miserably, became a little calmer. And as a man, who, with panting breath, has escaped from the deep sea to the shore, turns back towards the perilous waters and stares, so my mind, still fugitive, turned back to see that pass again, that no living person ever left.

From Canto 1 of Dante's Inferno


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 28 2015, 5:18am

Post #13 of 20 (4407 views)
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A great thematic point Terazed [In reply to] Can't Post

As to the duration and the stages of the travels in both Inferno and this chapter in Frodos's life. I was struck once you posted this as how much it reminds me closely of another recent topic - so I feel like that may add weight to your connection as well. And since this section does not 'move' the story forward per se, I wonder if we can read it is a deeply symbolic mini-tale involving the separation of the previous life Frodo led with the new life he is moving towards. A literary dividing line from the mundane into the larger and in a sense more eldritch universe?


This bit I recall may relate directly a bit more to earlier points about Old Man Willow, but Canto XIII, the Forest of the Suicides makes me think of the entire notion of disembodied feas taking tree-shape, as well as the concept that the separation of body and soul by sin will prevent these gnarled trees from every regaining their bodies, as they threw them away. That idea of Elven and Human destinies and the relationship of feas to bodies/hroa seems to have a bit of a semblance to the concepts here:


When the exasperated soul abandons
The body whence it rent itself away,
Minos consigns it to the seventh abyss.
It falls into the forest, and no part
Is chosen for it; but where Fortune hurls it,
There like a grain of spelt it germinates.
It springs a sapling, and a forest tree;
The Harpies, feeding then upon its leaves,
Do pain create, and for the pain an outlet.











(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 28 2015, 5:19am)


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 28 2015, 11:18pm

Post #14 of 20 (4361 views)
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Color-coordinating [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for connecting those dots, Wiz. I'd never picked up on the repeated use of the same colors, but I'm sure you're right: they're meant to all harmonize with nature, since this is the quintessential Nature Place.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 28 2015, 11:21pm

Post #15 of 20 (4374 views)
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Timelessness and Mordor [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I get a feeling of Lothlorien echoed here. Time is not allowed to intrude on the lives of those under the protection of the patron of the house, and neither is any worry or harried feeling welcome. I think to Goldberry's description of Tom simply being 'Master'. He is master of his own land and home, and nothing is able to disobey him or trouble his guests. I think the ambiguous measure of time here is to show just this.

It struck me that we all notice the timelessness of enchanted, good places, but why don't enchanted, bad places feel timeless too, like Morgul Vale or the heart of Mordor? If you think of good opposed to evil, should time move more quickly or harshly in Mordor? But the hobbits never seem to feel any variation of time there, so maybe it's only a Good thing.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 30 2015, 5:16pm

Post #16 of 20 (4355 views)
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"...two nights, or three days dark..." [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Where else in The Lord of the Rings does Tolkien do this?

Several times, but I’ve always found this extremely masterful transition especially significant in so many wonderful ways:

With a last despairing effort Frodo raised himself on his hands, and struggled on for maybe twenty yards. Then he pitched down into a shallow pit that opened unexpectedly before them, and there he lay like a dead thing.
-The Land of Shadow

Sam put his ragged orc-cloak under his master's head, and covered them both with the grey robe of Lórien; and as he did so his thoughts went out to that fair land, and to the Elves, and he hoped that the cloth woven by their hands might have some virtue to keep them hidden beyond all hope in this wilderness of fear.
-Mount Doom


B. What is the function of a “Chapter” in a book like this?

Generally the purpose of a chapter is to set a scene and to create some kind of action that progresses the storyline. If more than one setting or point of view is used in a chapter, then a space should be to indicate the change. As long as the chapter reads as a cohesive whole, more than one scene can be included. The chapter should always contain events that naturally occur and belong together. Each chapter must forward the action and the ending in some way. Chapters that stop and go off on an irrelevant tangent are considered bad by editors.

A rule of thumb for the length of a chapter is seventeen pages. The “wisdom” among publishers is that any chapter over twenty pages will cause the reader to get bored, so they tend to come down on authors about it, saying that either the chapter is actually two chapters, or else the chapter is overwritten and the writer should start cutting. Chapters in historical novels are allowed to be longer since it’s assumed the writer has to add a bunch of description. Same with scifi and fantasy. On the other hand the “wisdom” is that thrillers are supposed to have shorter chapters, and are supposed to end on a climax to keep the reader turning pages. A chapter should end right at the crucial moment. It is good to have each chapter finish with a question that will not be answered until a following chapter. (Not necessarily the immediately following chapter.)


Where did the horses go?

Yeah, such a big plot hole at the Morannon! Spoils the entire film! That Peter Jackson has no respect for the material! Er, wait…We’re talking about the book? Well of course the audience is expected to be a participant in the creative process and fill in many of the details. It’s that challenge to the reader that makes Tolkien so rewarding!


Or in this case the ponies.

When nearing the end of a day’s ride it’s best to get off and walk the horse (or pony) to allow the animal to cool down before letting it stop and rest. Also you should loosen the saddle and/or pack during the walk to help dry out the wet coat underneath. (Needless to say you shouldn't ride it then.) Signals Officer Tolkien would of course have training and experience in caring for horses.


At the end of chapter 6, the hobbits appear not to be riding, but to be walking (with “leaden” legs) to Tom’s.

Assuming the hobbits’ inexperience of being in the saddle for a full day’s ride, I’d wager they’d much prefer to walk on “leaden” legs than ride another mile on a particular part of their anatomy which by this time is no doubt very very sore.


Then they all (“hobbits and ponies”) hurry forward towards the brightly lit open door.

I’ve often seen tired horses find one last burst of energy to rush into a waiting barn.

As for dead tired hobbits finding a last burst of strength, see Frodo and Sam before the door of the Sammath Naur.


After that, except for Goldberry’s remark about Tom tending their tired beasts,….

*Frown* A rider should take care of his/her own mount.


…we never hear of them again until the departure at the beginning of chapter 8.
C. Do the ponies really exist or are they a device of convenience that the author forgets about most of the time?


The use (or non-use) and presence (or absence) of horses (and ponies) are a clue to the various cultures of Middle-earth. England has very little history of horse based mythology (but see the prehistoric horse of Uffington just south of Oxford) so we might similarly see the horse of little account in the Shire. Of course once we enter the wide world we can deduce various peoples’ culture from their horses. Bombadil knows the true names of his ponies and indeed all the creatures of the Old Forest, Elves talk to their horses as equals, Rohirrim value their horses and fight with them, the Enemy twists and corrupts horses for their own evil purposes, and so on.

And as hobbits don’t seem to be very much a horse based culture, Sam’s love and care for Bill the Pony thus comes across as much more than that between a master and his animal. Very nice!


The hobbits spend two nights at Bombadil’s, mostly listening to Tom. At one point Frodo is confused as to how many days and nights have passed since Tom began talking.

The mythologies here referred to were of the dead and resurrected god: Attis, Adonis, Gilgamesh, Osiris, one after the other. The death and resurrection of the god is everywhere associated with the moon, which dies and is resurrected every month. It is for two nights, or three days dark, and we have Christ for two nights, or three days in the tomb.
-Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth


D. Since what Tom says is described, not written out, could the purposes of the chapter have been accomplished in one night, or three?

And Frodo’s seventeen years in the Shire could have been condensed to just one year, as the Fellowship’s four fortnights in Rivendell could have been just one week.

But I much agree with Tolkien:

The most critical reader of all, myself, now finds many defects, minor and major, but being fortunately under no obligation either to review the book or to write it again, he will pass over these in silence, except one that has been noted by others: the book is too short.
-Forward to the Second Edition

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


Khim
Bree


Jan 31 2015, 2:32pm

Post #17 of 20 (4332 views)
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A Question of Time [In reply to] Can't Post

A Question of Time: JRR Tolkien's Road to Faerie by Verlyn Flieger is a wonderful book that discusses perceptions and distortions of time in Tolkien's works.

I am Khim akin to Mim.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 31 2015, 8:40pm

Post #18 of 20 (4326 views)
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Good to see you Khim! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the rec. - I shall get my hands on that work and read it through. I love the subject of time.








Khim
Bree


Jan 31 2015, 10:51pm

Post #19 of 20 (4341 views)
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Allegory versus Bounce (Tom and Smith) [In reply to] Can't Post

Brethil,

It is always a pleasure to visit the RR, ever a haven for thoughtful and courteous discourse.

Some time ago I exchanged e-mail with Professor Flieger about Bombadil. I sent her a link I discovered here at TheOneRing.

*********
On Aug 7, 2013 [Khim] wrote:
Subject: Who is Tom Bombadil?

Professor Flieger,

This may be old news to you, but I tripped across this blog today. I suggest you skip to the chase, ignoring the lengthy discussion about what Tom is not.

I thoroughly enjoyed his argument describing Tom as an incarnated spirit of The Music of the Ainur. I hope you are well, enjoy!

http://whoistombombadil.blogspot.com/2013/01/tom-bombadil-as-music-of-ainur_9.html

-[Khim]

On Aug 7, 2013 Verlyn Flieger wrote:
Subject: Re: Who is Tom Bombadil?

Dear [Khim],

Apologies for this tardy reply. I've been traveling and out of internet connection.

I agree with you about Jackson. Also about the quality of the analysis in the link you sent me (though I don't agree with the argument). Myself, I think Tom Bombadil is best left unanalyzed. He is who he is, as Goldberry says, and I enjoy the mystery.

I'm delighted that you're embarked on catching up on Arthur. I wish I'd known this spring. I'd have encouraged you to sign up for my course on Arthur online at Signum University. It would have been a pleasure to have you in class again.

Keep reading.

Best,

Verlyn F.
*********

She also argued against allegory in a debate with Tom Shippey regarding "Smith of Woottan Major." I read the exchange in her collection, "Green Suns and Faerie." Also highly recommended.

http://www.mythsoc.org/reviews/green-suns-and-faerie/

-Khim

p.s. I think the range and quality of The Reading Room discussion of Tom Bombadil has been great. Squire has set a high standard in leading this discussion :)

I am Khim akin to Mim.


sador
Half-elven


Feb 6 2015, 2:11pm

Post #20 of 20 (4306 views)
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The Desilation before the Black Gate [In reply to] Can't Post

Is described as "a land defiled, diseased beyond all healing - unless the Great Sea should enter in and wash it with oblivion." (The Passage of the Marshes)

Pretty much a counterpoint to Cerin Amroth - up to the description of Arwen's grave.

 
 

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