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CaptainObvious
Rivendell
Jan 25 2015, 2:32am
Post #1 of 84
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Can we agree that everyone trusting Alfrid was silly? (BOTFA SPOILERS)
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Alfrid...if I could describe that character in one word, that word would be, "ugh". I would have much rather that the master of laketown had lived longer, rather then having this nonsense character running about. Everything about Alfrid defies logic namely..
Why main characters kept trusting him!
Every time a main character would say something to Alfrid like, "Here watch over my children," or "Watch over Bilbo" or "You're the nightwatch," that character became an idiot. I don't want these characters to be idiots. Why trust the most obviously slimy evil character in the town with the most important tasks? If you need this character to do something, shouldn't you be doing that thing yourself?
It's a good thing Alfrid was dead by the time FOTR came about, or everyone would have voted for him to carry the ring to Mordor.
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Thorins_apprentice
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 2:36am
Post #2 of 84
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It reminded me of a Monty Python character.Pure slapstick and dark humour.He really made the movie more watchable.He was interesting in the way that he was only out for himself and watching him cheat his way to stay alive was hilarious.I especially love the scene where straight after he promises Bard to get the children to safety he yells Get up! and passes the sword to Bain. lol
We are more connected than ever before, more able to spread our ideas and beliefs, our anger and fears. As we exercise the right to advocate our views, and as we animate our supporters, we must all assume responsibility for our words and actions before they enter a vast echo chamber and reach those both serious and delirious, connected and unhinged.
(This post was edited by Thorins_apprentice on Jan 25 2015, 2:40am)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 25 2015, 2:48am
Post #3 of 84
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E.g., for me this character's life revolves around being a subordinate of someone - and he instantly latches onto Bard. So Bard "trusting" Alfrid I think may not be the best word - more like Alfrid is going to do what's he's told, to a degree, because that's who the character IS. And Bard knows that. Also Alfrid is not exactly the model of male strength and manliness.
Weaselly, yes, but not someone who wouldn't do as they were ordered, even if they are sullen about it. As long as Alfrid perceives the person telling him what to do has power of a sort. Which Bard rejects, and so Alfrid has no use for Bard at that point. Alfrid also does what Gandalf tells him to do, so I assume by that time Alfrid has figured out this isn't some vagabond, but a person of importance.
If you need this character to do something, shouldn't you be doing that thing yourself?
Not if there are other more pressing things to be done, and to be fair, Alfrid DOES drag folks to the main hall, and does spend the night on guard duty even tho he falls asleep, and so on. Not that he isn't most interested in his own skin - tho he actually DOES ask the Master about the people when Smaug attacks, and then takes his cue from the Master.
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moreorless
Gondor
Jan 25 2015, 3:18am
Post #4 of 84
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I certainly didnt find it not in keeping with the tone of the series...
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It reminded me of a Monty Python character.Pure slapstick and dark humour.He really made the movie more watchable.He was interesting in the way that he was only out for himself and watching him cheat his way to stay alive was hilarious.I especially love the scene where straight after he promises Bard to get the children to safety he yells Get up! and passes the sword to Bain. lol
He seems to get more focus as a Jackson invention but I personally found him very much akin to several of the Dwarves as well as the likes of the Goblin King and of course the Master in terms of tone. Honestly I think that as that kind of character he was actually played very well, ridiculous but not so much that he lost all dramatic weight.
I suspect the main reason he was kept going during BOT5A rather than killed off with the Master was that Jackson felt Bard needed someone to play off of and perhaps that the tone of that part of the story needed to be lifted a but. Pretty much every Alfrid scene afterall isn't really based on pushing the character for his own sake but rather on highlighting another character. Generally I do think there was a danger of the laketown part of the story becoming rather dull and po faced.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jan 25 2015, 5:09am
Post #5 of 84
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Though I think Bard's character probably had too much faith in Alfrid considering their history,
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it does seem that Bard is giving Alfrid a chance to redeem himself apart from The Master and apply whatever organizational skills he may have for the good of the destitute community. Bard keeps trying to offer him a way up from his fallen status but of course Alfrid it just too greedy and selfish. I think his scenes were generally liked by theater audiences as a necessary break from battle etc.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 25 2015, 5:32am
Post #6 of 84
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It's better to not think about such things
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For example, Bard would no doubt have trusted friends among the survivors. People he trusts and respects and can work with. But is there time for that? Yes, there's ZERO place for Alfrid. But why think about it that deeply? Thinking too deeply about the issues in BOTFA just gets you into trouble. Just accept it for the spectacle film entertainment it is. Don't let it unravel on you with the "unsatisfying conclusions to any storyline" claptrap. Accept it, be at peace, and revel in the EE which will be at least a little better.
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moreorless
Gondor
Jan 25 2015, 6:51am
Post #7 of 84
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Is Alfrid even shown as being given that much power?
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For example, Bard would no doubt have trusted friends among the survivors. People he trusts and respects and can work with. But is there time for that? Yes, there's ZERO place for Alfrid. But why think about it that deeply? Thinking too deeply about the issues in BOTFA just gets you into trouble. Just accept it for the spectacle film entertainment it is. Don't let it unravel on you with the "unsatisfying conclusions to any storyline" claptrap. Accept it, be at peace, and revel in the EE which will be at least a little better.
We see Alfird more than any of the other lake towners but really I don't get much sense that he's been given a position of power. Rather it seems to me that Bard is putting him to task as watchman/errand boy as a bit of a test, at least until the battle where he's simply the only man around at that moment.
Again I think the main reason we see so much of Alfrid is he provides someone for Bard to play off of with a bit of character. In that respect his moral failings make him much more effective than an average Laketowner would be.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 9:12am
Post #8 of 84
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Alfrids role in the films and his arc in the making of the films offers some very interesting insights.
Alfrid is what some call fan fiction but I think his addition to the Masters Arc in Lake Town in DOS and at the beginning of BOFA just shows how a new character can reinforce an existing character. Alfrid up that point can make you believe he was in the book even though he wasn't he is that right for the story.
The original idea was for Stephen Fry to survive the attack and he filmed by the lake whereas Ryan Cage was absent presumably some scenes are studio integrations.
Alfrid's later work without Stephen Fry belongs then to the 10 week pick ups 2013. It's clear they liked what they where seeing of the cut of DOS and decided to give us much more in BOFA.
That suggests a good deal of the Lake Towners in Dale were additions to flesh out the battle. if you are going to bring the Lake Towners to Dale and Bard bring Alfrid. Indeed I remember they opened up Dale for the 2013 pickups.
In its self that makes sense but what I get from the Laketowners/Bard/Alfrid is an over extended plot line which keeps on repeating itself. Bard your a hero Yes we got that Alfrid your deceitful conniving little git yes we got that and the L T coming back to Dale turned out to be disastrous and in the films terms simply made the battle section much longer and more complicated with out telling us anything new about the participants of the plot line. My view is Bard was recognised by the Lake and that could easily be reinforced in an imaginative way by a certain Elf. Alfrid or the Master could have been saved from being stoned by the mob by the heroic Bard and then in the EE be shown having a Saruman moment where one individual finally decides they have had enough and kills him for yet another act of self interest (trying to leave with the gold and or kidnapping one of the children to act as a human shield).
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 25 2015, 9:14am)
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moreorless
Gondor
Jan 25 2015, 11:10am
Post #9 of 84
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I think it makes sense with a shift to three films..
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I think it makes sense that if you shift from two to three films your going to need to give certain character more focus in order to re-establish them. Alfrid himself I think most would agree didn't need that and could have easily been killed off with the master but I think you can argue that Bard did now that his earlier screen time is in a different film.
Again I think that's the reason for more Alfrid in BOT5A, he's someone that whilst not in actual conflict with Bard much of the time can be obviously used to highlights his strengths by his own weaknesses. Especially I think he works well in differentiating Bard from being "Aragorn mk2" via playing up his very down to earth nature and lack of desire for kingship and his focus on family.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Jan 25 2015, 11:10am)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 25 2015, 11:25am
Post #10 of 84
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For starters, Alfrid seems to have served the Master reasonably well, doing what was expected even though he was muttering about it. And though the Master's government was corrupt, there's no particular reason to think it wasn't efficient on its own terms. So the Master was probably right to trust him - or at least, use him - I'm not sure how far trust comes into it.
And as far as everyone else was concerned, in the shambles after Smaug's fall, Alfrid was someone people were used to deferring to, even though they hated him. Bard was giving him a chance - and in the situation Bard found himself, he had a lot to contend with and needed an assistant - someone who knew how to manage things. I don't suppose Bard really had the time to think much more deeply than that - he needed to get things done. Gandalf had never met Alfrid before - why should he know anything about him?
I think they were using Alfrid in the story in two distinct ways (apart from the humour, which may or may not appeal). First, it's about the nature of leadership, and in that sense he plays a foil to Bard. Alfrid is used to being in charge in someone else's name - he likes having someone bigger to protect him. With the Master gone he turns to Bard, who could easily step into the Master's place. Between them they could organise the survivors for their own benefit. Bard isn't up for that. He does take over - he's a natural leader - but he does it because he has to, and for everyone else's sake. That's something Alfrid doesn't understand.
Second thing is the part Alfrid plays in the theme of greed. He shows up the difference between ordinary greed and the terrible power of the dragon's hoard. Alfrid's greed is about what money can do for him. He snaffles up the coins - doesn't worry too much about picking up every last one - and you get the feeling that if he can make it off the battlefield he'll set himself up comfortably somewhere. He values money for what it can buy. Dragon sickness is lust for possession. Smaug slept on (in) a pile of gold he could never use for anything and wouldn't part with a single cup. He just wanted to own it. Same with Thror and Thorin, until he broke free. It's not about what the gold might buy, it's about possessing it for it's own sake.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 25 2015, 12:13pm
Post #11 of 84
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I think Bard trusting him – not once but several times, and especially with his offspring – was inexplicable. It seemed out of character for Bard, who didn't seem to be stupid in other ways. It's something I picked up on right away, but it does not bother me all that much.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jan 25 2015, 12:17pm)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jan 25 2015, 12:28pm
Post #12 of 84
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I found this incredulous as well, but as dormouse says, Bard needed someone recognizable to play off, and Alfrid worked better than the Master would have. He was annoying but necessary... I wish we could perhaps have had more little vignettes like they managed with Hilda Blanca, which would maybe have helped it feel less like Alfrid was stealing the show , and I certainly hope we don't get the ending for Alfrid described in the Weta Chronicles. Either leave his end to the imagination or give him the fate of the Master, which would be fitting and a nod to the book.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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haarp
Rivendell
Jan 25 2015, 1:29pm
Post #13 of 84
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PJ really screwed up these films.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 25 2015, 1:53pm
Post #14 of 84
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Terrific, inspirational insight
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I never thought of that one. Thank you.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 25 2015, 1:55pm
Post #15 of 84
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Or if PJ is desperate to include it
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He could just put it in the appendices – but I would hate to see something like this in the EE.
Either leave his end to the imagination or give him the fate of the Master, which would be fitting and a nod to the book.
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moreorless
Gondor
Jan 25 2015, 2:06pm
Post #16 of 84
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Personally I liked what we got...
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I found this incredulous as well, but as dormouse says, Bard needed someone recognizable to play off, and Alfrid worked better than the Master would have. He was annoying but necessary... I wish we could perhaps have had more little vignettes like they managed with Hilda Blanca, which would maybe have helped it feel less like Alfrid was stealing the show , and I certainly hope we don't get the ending for Alfrid described in the Weta Chronicles. Either leave his end to the imagination or give him the fate of the Master, which would be fitting and a nod to the book.
Personally I liked the ending to Alfrid that we got in the TE, the idea that he potentially got away with his little stash of gold. He wasn't so evil that he was crying out to be punished and such people getting away with it is the way of the world that IMHO casts Bard in a better light.
As far as Bard trusting him goes I would say the only time he really does that is during the battle when he really has little alternative as theres nobody else to hand. Prior to that I don't think Bard put a great deal of trust in him probably not expecting there to be a great deal of need to put a guard in such a desolate location.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Jan 25 2015, 2:09pm)
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jan 25 2015, 2:13pm
Post #17 of 84
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simply because Bard and Alfrid have known each other all their lives, and in DOS in the tollgate scene we see that Bard knows exactly how to 'handle' Alfrid.
Bard is a pretty shrewd character - he gets the dwarves to double their price for a lift on his barge, he figures out a clever way to smuggle them into Laketown, he manipulates Alfrid at the tollgate and, finally, he makes more allies at the unloading dock by bribing the man to keep quiet and giving him free fish. When Bilbo brings them the Arkenstone it is Bard who immediately jumps on the most important point and asks, "How is this yours to give away?" I can see why clever old Thranduil seemed to take to him right away.  (And I also thought it was interesting that Bard knew Thranduil by sight. Either he's seen him before or Thranduil is famous as the 'guy who rides the elk'.)
As for putting Alfrid on night watch, that was just a mild way of punishing Alfrid for past behavior - the dragon was dead, there was no reason to think the dwarves would attack them, and Bard had no knowledge of any orcs on the move in the area, so making Alfrid stay up all night probably just felt incredibly satisfying. Bard didn't appear very surprised in the morning to find out that Alfrid had completely missed an entire elf army - more of a "that figures" reaction. And during the battle scene with the children, I think Bard just grabbed the first adult male that he saw and hoped for the best.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Mcoull
Bree
Jan 25 2015, 2:31pm
Post #18 of 84
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The main problem for me isn't that he's weaselling or greedy, it's that on the Lake shore we clearly saw he was about to be violent towards Hilda, ostensibly one of his own, just because she wouldn't give him a blanket. I can't remember the exact wording but I believe she says:
"Over my dead body"
And he replies:
"That can be arranged"
Before Bard stops him.
THIS (and him kicking that person off the barge, abandoning them to certain death in LakeTown, but no one would have saw that) is problematic as it turns Alfrid from a comic relief character for me to a downright villain. Bard (or any parent) would never trust Alfrid to look after his children after he has seen and had to stop Alfrid threaten to kill another refugee over a blanket! Or am I missing something?
(This post was edited by Mcoull on Jan 25 2015, 2:34pm)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 2:58pm
Post #19 of 84
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Well yes and no. Bard told Bain to follow soon after to make sure Alfrid didn't mess things up at one point anyway.
I liked him to some degree. I mean, loved to hate in a way. But I don't like how he got more than certain more important characters. The humor at times were a bit too forced which was obviously why he was there for.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 25 2015, 3:03pm
Post #20 of 84
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Perhaps Bard was testing Alfrid.
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A crisis tends to bring out the best and the worst in folk. Bard needed to know if Alfrid was going to step up and had to see what the man would do with some real responsibility.
It might have been interesting to see Alfrid redeem himself a bit, but Jackson had already killed off the Master so we needed a substitute.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 25 2015, 3:05pm)
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 25 2015, 3:12pm
Post #21 of 84
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It is also a shrewd deduction. Who else who is remotely within reach of Erebor, would lead an Elven army of thousands?
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Name
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 3:15pm
Post #22 of 84
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As my old music teacher would have said
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He's "out of texture and out of tone."
Interesting character, but wildly out of place in this movie. He goes along with the tone of AUJ more than BOFA. I would have liked him more if he was more Wormtounge and less silly.
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 3:51pm
Post #23 of 84
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Is why they didn't have Alfrid get killed during Smaug's attack and have the Master survive. It would have had the same overall effect while remaining more true to the book also. Plus I liked Stephen Fry's Master lol.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 25 2015, 4:06pm
Post #24 of 84
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I think they chose to keep Alfred alive as a foil for Bard....
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..to show up Bard's qualities as leader. The Master couldn't have done that because he would naturally assume leadership himself, as he does in the book. Killing the Master off simplified things - it let Bard take over in his own right straight away rather than taking over in the Master's name.
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 25 2015, 4:39pm
Post #25 of 84
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I agree it didn't make sense to me
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when characters like Bard and Gandalf put any trust in Alfrid. Especially letting him look after Bard's kids. It seemed totally out of character for Bard, especially as he'd earlier shown he found Alfrid despicable.
I don't think the Master would have been a good swap, though. I'm persuaded by other posters that there was a need for the comic relief Alfrid provided, I just think it could have been funnier, less predictable, and done in a way that didn't push Bard out of his character.
Given the constraints of time and everything else there was to deal with, it was probably the best PJ could come up with.
Growth after all is not so much a matter of change as of ripening, and what alters most is the degree of clarity with which we see one another. -Edith Pargeter
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