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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Multicultural Laketown
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Drakblod
Rivendell


Jan 23 2015, 6:37am

Post #1 of 58 (1422 views)
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Multicultural Laketown Can't Post

First of all - please save your time and don't post anything about racism, because this has nothing to do with it.

What are your toughts on the many shots of both black people and asian people in some of the Laketown scenes?

like butter scraped over too much bread.


moreorless
Gondor

Jan 23 2015, 6:48am

Post #2 of 58 (1027 views)
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I thought it was a good move... [In reply to] Can't Post

Personally I thought it was a good direction to go, firstly because in reinforced the point Thorin was making that the area had a history as the training centre for the region(even if it doesn't today the ancestors of those we see could have been drawn in) and also because it gives us a chance to see non white Europeans as something other than the badguys.


Arannir
Valinor


Jan 23 2015, 9:05am

Post #3 of 58 (952 views)
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Liked it. [In reply to] Can't Post

Laketown is portrayed as an old trading hub, a melting pot. At the time of the movies the trade is pretty much limited to Mirkwood - but given its position it is possible that people of colour from East and South at some point moved there.

Gave it a special feeling... but a genuine feeling. Didn't feel out of place.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



RosieLass
Valinor


Jan 23 2015, 9:11am

Post #4 of 58 (937 views)
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I noticed it, of course. [In reply to] Can't Post

But only to think "oh, that's cool," and go back to watching the movie.

I've never been bugged by the look of any of the characters. It wouldn't have broken my heart if they had cast an Asian actor for the role of Legolas, way back in LOTR.

"BOTH [political] extremes are dangerous. But more dangerous are team fanboys who think all the extremists are on the OTHER side." (CNN reader comment)

It is always those with the fewest sensible things to say who make the loudest noise in saying them. --Precious Ramotswe (Alexander McCall Smith)

(This post was edited by RosieLass on Jan 23 2015, 9:12am)


smtfhw
Lorien

Jan 23 2015, 9:20am

Post #5 of 58 (910 views)
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Pretty Much [In reply to] Can't Post

Exactly my thoughts. Made perfect sense.


bungobaggins
Lorien

Jan 23 2015, 12:16pm

Post #6 of 58 (880 views)
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Didn't bother me. [In reply to] Can't Post

http://i.imgur.com/ZYx8gBY.gif


Bumblingidiot
Rohan

Jan 23 2015, 12:55pm

Post #7 of 58 (918 views)
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Middle Earth stories are supposed to be myths. [In reply to] Can't Post

But they are written from the perspective of someone who believes in the myth being told. The main danger of showing people from distant lands, is that if you start drawing outside the map, then the myth begins to crumble. If we start accepting that we know about the Far East, for example, then we start wondering how Sauron can be taking over the world, unless he has armies marching south and east - into the Middle Earth version of China, for example. Middle Earthers are not supposed to know about distant lands to the south, east or west. If the elves sail into the west and hit the coast of America, it kind of destroys their entire worldview, for example.

Depicting a variety of ethnicities in Laketown was not a particular problem - we can assume that they are from the regions to east and south on the map, and their presence was not gone into in sufficient detail to cause awkward questions to arise in the mind of the viewer (I think). But any more emphasis on different ethnicities would have broadened the world too much and required explanations of political power structures beyond the borders of Middle Earth.

"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."


Glorfindela
Valinor


Jan 23 2015, 1:08pm

Post #8 of 58 (872 views)
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Yes, I agree with this [In reply to] Can't Post

Taking London as an example, this is a city situated on a major waterway, which was an important trading port since very early times until recently. Already in the medieval period it was full of foreigners, and people of different ethnicities began arriving after the discovery of their lands by the English. Parts of the East End had thriving communities of different ethnic groups in the 18th and 19th centuries. Similarly, it is entirely plausible for Laketown to contain people of different ethnicities, who migrated there for work – though in the world of ME, as you say any more emphasis on them than there was in the films would have required too much 'non-ME' explanation.


In Reply To
Depicting a variety of ethnicities in Laketown was not a particular problem - we can assume that they are from the regions to east and south on the map, and their presence was not gone into in sufficient detail to cause awkward questions to arise in the mind of the viewer (I think). But any more emphasis on different ethnicities would have broadened the world too much and required explanations of political power structures beyond the borders of Middle Earth.

In Reply To


Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Jan 23 2015, 2:35pm

Post #9 of 58 (838 views)
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As a trading post [In reply to] Can't Post

For middle earth the multicultural aspect would perfectly make sense. There's no doubt that in years long past Laketown was full of different cultures as the traders passed through and the people we saw were likely descended from those folks so I thought it was great they were in there. Gave it an authentic flavor.

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you, Gandalf the Grey


DjU
Lorien

Jan 23 2015, 2:44pm

Post #10 of 58 (844 views)
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Middle-earth [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But they are written from the perspective of someone who believes in the myth being told. The main danger of showing people from distant lands, is that if you start drawing outside the map, then the myth begins to crumble. If we start accepting that we know about the Far East, for example, then we start wondering how Sauron can be taking over the world, unless he has armies marching south and east - into the Middle Earth version of China, for example. Middle Earthers are not supposed to know about distant lands to the south, east or west. If the elves sail into the west and hit the coast of America, it kind of destroys their entire worldview, for example.

Depicting a variety of ethnicities in Laketown was not a particular problem - we can assume that they are from the regions to east and south on the map, and their presence was not gone into in sufficient detail to cause awkward questions to arise in the mind of the viewer (I think). But any more emphasis on different ethnicities would have broadened the world too much and required explanations of political power structures beyond the borders of Middle Earth.


Whilst I agree with the point of a not delving to deeply, otherwise you have to start explaining, I can't help but notice that some of your phrasing seem to make it seem like it could be taken that you are not counting places like Rhûn, Khand and Harad as part of of Middle-earth?


Mcoull
Bree

Jan 23 2015, 2:50pm

Post #11 of 58 (820 views)
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I agree! [In reply to] Can't Post

 I really liked that there were different ethnicities, it felt both like a move to update the text for the 21st century (like Tauriel) but felt very Middle Earth at the same time.
I actually wouldn't have minded if they had gone further and cast a non-white actor for Bard! I think the actor who played Mr. Eko from Lost or Chiewetel Ejiofor can both do 'grim-faced' rather well and I think Mr. Eko in particular would have leant a different physicality to a main character that we haven't really seen in Middle Earth before. I'm not sure if there are any references to Bard's skin colour (or the people of Dale since he's a descendant) in the Hobbit novel though.


(This post was edited by Mcoull on Jan 23 2015, 2:51pm)


Brandybuckled
Lorien


Jan 23 2015, 3:35pm

Post #12 of 58 (811 views)
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also ignoring... [In reply to] Can't Post

That the world is round, but the elves take the Straight Road to the west. Anyone else (without elf clearance) going west would end up back east. ;-)

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 23 2015, 3:54pm

Post #13 of 58 (804 views)
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There is a certain logic. [In reply to] Can't Post

It makes sense that some of the residents of Esgaroth would be at least partially descended from Easterlings. Lake-town and Dale are both on the edge of the lands of the East and saw much trade in their days. Southrons from Har Harad is a bit more of a stretch; but merchants world-over will follow the trade, so it is not entirely improbable.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 23 2015, 6:15pm

Post #14 of 58 (779 views)
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I didn't hardly think about it [In reply to] Can't Post

Is it the first time we see people of clearly different ethnicity in the entire series?

What are your thoughts on it?


Mcoull
Bree

Jan 23 2015, 7:13pm

Post #15 of 58 (752 views)
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Not quite the first- [In reply to] Can't Post

The haradrim and easterlings in LOTR are quite clearly not white. It's the first time we've seen 'good' guys who aren't white though as far as I can remember but I might be wrong there.


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 23 2015, 7:20pm

Post #16 of 58 (740 views)
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Right [In reply to] Can't Post

I forgot about those guys.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 23 2015, 7:24pm

Post #17 of 58 (748 views)
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Including LotR? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Is it the first time we see people of clearly different ethnicity in the entire series?

What are your thoughts on it?



Not the first if we count the black-skinned Ranger among Faramir's men or the Haradrim oliphaunt-rider in TT who is killed by Faramir's Rangers. I'm not sure if the Easterlings at the Black Gate were Asian actors or white actors in make up. And in the prologue to FotR-EE, if you pause on the Kings of Men who were given the Nine Rings, the third from the left looks like he could be Khamul the Easterling. I've already stated my thoughts on Lake-town.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 23 2015, 7:28pm)


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 23 2015, 7:29pm

Post #18 of 58 (749 views)
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What's the deal with the "in reply to" on this forum? [In reply to] Can't Post

My question of "what are your thoughts" was directed at the OP. When you click "in reply to" on my entry it directs to the OP. Am I doing something wrong?

Oh, nevermind. You were just answering the question generally. I thought you were under the impression that question was directed at you.


(This post was edited by Bishop on Jan 23 2015, 7:31pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 23 2015, 7:31pm

Post #19 of 58 (729 views)
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Not a problem. [In reply to] Can't Post

I just took it as a general question, not necessarily aimed soley at the OP.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jan 23 2015, 7:34pm

Post #20 of 58 (734 views)
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Hi! [In reply to] Can't Post

You probably clicked the link "in reply to" appearing just above Otaku Sempai's post (which was the most recent post in the thread when you posted, so a common and logical mistake to make). To reply to the OP, you would need to scroll up to THAT post, and click the "in reply to" link above IT.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 23 2015, 7:37pm

Post #21 of 58 (726 views)
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He did it right. [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't back-check to see what post he was replying to. But I had guessed it was the main one. For me, the posts appear in chronological order.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Bishop
Gondor


Jan 23 2015, 7:37pm

Post #22 of 58 (722 views)
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Cool, thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it was just a misunderstanding of his reply on my part!

Still curious about the OP's thoughts though, having posed the question initially.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jan 23 2015, 7:39pm

Post #23 of 58 (719 views)
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Need more coffee...I was looking at his last post, which WAS to you.!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 23 2015, 7:43pm

Post #24 of 58 (708 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

Only because he actually was replying to me.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


Bladerunner
Gondor


Jan 23 2015, 10:34pm

Post #25 of 58 (693 views)
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Alatar and Pallando... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that Morgan Freeman would have made a fantastic Blue Wizard and been a great complement to Ian McKellen's Gandalf if a film that included the five Istari could have been made.


In Reply To
I actually wouldn't have minded if they had gone further and cast a non-white actor for Bard! I think the actor who played Mr. Eko from Lost or Chiewetel Ejiofor can both do 'grim-faced' rather well and I think Mr. Eko in particular would have leant a different physicality to a main character that we haven't really seen in Middle Earth before.


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