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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 23 2015, 2:20am
Post #1 of 33
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So what's the deal with the ice chariot?
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All I know is Balin is in it for sure and they're being chased by Wargs or some other type of creature. Any theories on what's happening there?
I also noticed something else on a recent viewing. When Kili, Fili, Bofur and Oin show up at Erebor for the first time and cross the bridge over the moat the water is clearly about 30 feet below the bridge. It's a deep chasm. Likewise when Bard shows up to speak with Thorin the bridge is clearly extremely high above the water, and it's frozen. So at some point the ice melts and the water level rises to the level of the bridge, or where the bridge used to be before they destroyed it with the statue head; And it is this way for the rest of the film. It's hard to believe this is an oversight considering the entrance to Erebor is a huge focus in the film. So I wonder if the chariot has something to do with this change in the water level, considering they're riding along what is a clearly a water passage of some kind.
The other question of course is will any of the chariot make it's way to the EE?
(This post was edited by Bishop on Jan 23 2015, 2:21am)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jan 23 2015, 2:26am
Post #2 of 33
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I noticed that with the water too. That it rises then at one point probably freezes though that must be quick for the chariot to be able on move on it right?
Maybe the chase is either just made for the trailer or there is just a deleted part of the battle. We got very very very little of the dwarves in the actual battle so I hope there is more for us in the EE.
I think for sure that the dwarves on the wagon are both a pair of brothers. Balin and Dwalin. Fili and Kili. I saw a good HQ photo of it a while back.
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tsmith675
Gondor
Jan 23 2015, 2:30am
Post #3 of 33
(764 views)
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The water level really bothered me...
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One of those details that still really annoy me...
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 23 2015, 2:31am
Post #4 of 33
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There was an interview recently with someone from Weta that said it was being worked on for the EE.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 23 2015, 2:33am
Post #5 of 33
(729 views)
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It's either a quick freeze, or they release the water somehow through some Dwarvish mechanics. Though I can't for the life of me imagine under what circumstances this would happen.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 23 2015, 2:38am
Post #6 of 33
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I originally thought this was how word was brought to Dain re the trailers, but maybe not....because it wouldn't make sense for the dwarves to not stay with Dain and come with his army, for one thing.
Anyway, hope it makes the EE, this thing is very cool.
larger version at: https://www.facebook.com/filithedwarf
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 23 2015, 2:40am
Post #7 of 33
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If it's an oversight, which again is so very difficult to believe. That entryway is just too massive a player in the story, much more so than anything inside Erebor. It's the gateway view to the entire battle, the blockade for anyone trying to get their hands on what's behind it, and ultimately the redemption for Thorin as he bursts through it and into the fight with his company. I can't believe that they would screw up the fact that the bridge, the one they destroy, is literally about 40 feet above ice in a deep chasm below, and then the water is simply at level with the bridge. It actually doesn't make sense. Something else to consider is that Jackson and co are complete sticklers for the logistics of these things, so thinking about it now I'm almost certain it will be explained in the EE.
(This post was edited by Bishop on Jan 23 2015, 2:41am)
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jan 23 2015, 3:00am
Post #9 of 33
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If it's any consolation the War Chariot is mentioned in the Chronicles book.
"As the script developed the chariot became something that Thorin and his group would use to cut a way through the Ravenhill, where Azog was."
The four rams that they take are likely the four rams they use to get to Ravenhill unlike in the TE where they come from seemingly nowhere.
I thought there was a mention somewhere of Balin being the driver, but I can't find it.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 23 2015, 3:40am
Post #10 of 33
(676 views)
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Yeah, that would make sense. Thanks for the info!
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 23 2015, 3:46am
Post #11 of 33
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I hope they don't use this as just another chance for some action. I'm crossing my fingers for one last meaningful moment between Thorin and Balin before they separate at Ravenhill.
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jan 23 2015, 3:59am
Post #12 of 33
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I expect it to just be an action sequence.
It would be a nice surprise though and there might be a chance considering (somewhere in this book I swear!) they mention that Balin becomes the commander of the Dwarves after Thorin heads off to Ravenhill. (Not sure if they mean the Entire Dwarven army meaning Dain's men which would be odd, or just the Company)
EDIT: Since the book also mentions gunner's seats (because this thing is apparently some really crazy contraption that shoots crossbow bolts) it may be our last chance to see Kili acting like an Archer.
(This post was edited by Pandallo on Jan 23 2015, 4:02am)
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 23 2015, 4:05am
Post #13 of 33
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Your post just made me really sad
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I mean, I know that we can agree that the film falters at least in part when tying up character relationships. But I just realized that we never see Balin and Thorin have any kind of parting moment. Balin and Thorin have quite a bit of time devoted to their relationship, so it's especially sad.
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There&ThereAgain
Rohan
Jan 23 2015, 4:32am
Post #14 of 33
(640 views)
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Never noticed the water level change.
But I've only seen it once in theaters. 
"The world is indeed full of peril, and in it there are many dark places; but still there is much that is fair; and though in all lands love is now mingled with grief, it grows perhaps the greater."-J.R.R. Tolkien
"Thanks for the money!" -George Lucas
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 23 2015, 4:47am
Post #15 of 33
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has it occured to anyone that in Norse myth Thor drives a chariot pulled by goats???????????
Thorin... rams... just sayin'
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jan 23 2015, 5:00am
Post #17 of 33
(617 views)
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I expect it to just be an action sequence.
It would be a nice surprise though and there might be a chance considering (somewhere in this book I swear!) they mention that Balin becomes the commander of the Dwarves after Thorin heads off to Ravenhill. (Not sure if they mean the Entire Dwarven army meaning Dain's men which would be odd, or just the Company)
EDIT: Since the book also mentions gunner's seats (because this thing is apparently some really crazy contraption that shoots crossbow bolts) it may be our last chance to see Kili acting like an Archer.
I hope it makes it in to the EE, I think it would help with how they get to Ravenhill, plus it'll be nice to see Balin get in on the action :) For quite a while I wondered where in the world that scene could fit in, then it was mentioned that it was part of how they got to Ravenhill and it made sense. Also I'd look forward to getting to see Kili as an archer one more time.
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moreorless
Gondor
Jan 23 2015, 5:42am
Post #18 of 33
(609 views)
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Perhaps an outright change akin to Dol Guldor and Thrain?
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If it's any consolation the War Chariot is mentioned in the Chronicles book.
"As the script developed the chariot became something that Thorin and his group would use to cut a way through the Ravenhill, where Azog was."
The four rams that they take are likely the four rams they use to get to Ravenhill unlike in the TE where they come from seemingly nowhere.
I thought there was a mention somewhere of Balin being the driver, but I can't find it.
Could it perhaps be the case that the introduction of the chariot leads to an outright change to the TE akin to Thrain being added to Dol Guldor?
Its interesting in the above shot that theres no Thorin in the chariot though, looking at the trailer stills it seems like this might be the case there as well.
Initally my feeling was that perhaps the chariot was maybe a scene much earlier in the film with the Dwarves visiting Ravenhill being attacked by Wargs but perhaps if its in the Battle Thorin isn't in the chariot and is riding a Ram instead?
Honestly my feeling with BOT5A is that the EE is likely to be a little different to the other two Hobbit ones. I get the sense that the extra material is going to be more solid blocks of entirely new footage rather than little bits here and there.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 23 2015, 6:18am
Post #19 of 33
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now that you mention it...Dain's pig
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Someone had posted a while back re a Norse god who rides a pig.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jan 23 2015, 7:51am
Post #20 of 33
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yes, i've posted about this previously...
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The Weta Chronicles do explain how the chariot was used to get Thorin and his warriors to Ravenhill. They use it as far as the terrain - and damage - will allow, then cut the four goats free to ride up the rocky outcrop. What happens to Balin, the driver, remains to be seen, hopefully in the EE. Presumably he makes his way back to Erebor on foot??
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
(This post was edited by Eleniel on Jan 23 2015, 7:51am)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jan 23 2015, 9:07am
Post #21 of 33
(536 views)
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The rams don't come out of nowhere, though.
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You can see some rams between the lines of Dain's army when it appears on the slopes.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Farficom
Rivendell
Jan 23 2015, 9:23am
Post #22 of 33
(525 views)
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I totally want one of those now. They could make a special line of them you can hit the mean streets of wherever you are from in.
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DeadRabbits
Rohan
Jan 23 2015, 12:36pm
Post #23 of 33
(454 views)
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Yes, Freyr rides a boar with golden bristles, manufactured (!) by dwarves. //
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Now now Bill, you swore this was a battle between warriors, not a bunch of miss nancies, so warriors is what I brought
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DjU
Lorien
Jan 23 2015, 1:35pm
Post #24 of 33
(428 views)
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I don't think it will alter anything that significantly
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If it's any consolation the War Chariot is mentioned in the Chronicles book.
"As the script developed the chariot became something that Thorin and his group would use to cut a way through the Ravenhill, where Azog was."
The four rams that they take are likely the four rams they use to get to Ravenhill unlike in the TE where they come from seemingly nowhere.
I thought there was a mention somewhere of Balin being the driver, but I can't find it. Could it perhaps be the case that the introduction of the chariot leads to an outright change to the TE akin to Thrain being added to Dol Guldor? Its interesting in the above shot that theres no Thorin in the chariot though, looking at the trailer stills it seems like this might be the case there as well. Initally my feeling was that perhaps the chariot was maybe a scene much earlier in the film with the Dwarves visiting Ravenhill being attacked by Wargs but perhaps if its in the Battle Thorin isn't in the chariot and is riding a Ram instead?
The chariot scene should slide into the movie reasonably easily and probably without changing to much.
After the Dwarves rally and then charge from Erebor there is the a bit of battle and fighting then there is a scene between Thorin & Dain where they great each other and then Dain asks if Thorin has a plan, he this points to Azog and Ravenhill, we then cut to a shot of Thorin, Dwalin, Fili & Kili all on ram back charging at a rank of Orcs.
I imagine the Chariot scene should slot easily in there - its what the Chronicles book suggests, they use the chariot to navigate the winding river and the use the rams near the end to make the assent up to Ravenhill - the only question that then remains is are Balin, Dwalin, Fili & Kili on the chariot because they have already commandeered it and Thorin spots them in it OR does Thorin order them to commandeer the chariot. At some point Balin will be left as the others continue on.
On the Balin part, the Chronicles book also suggests that some idea were that Balin would be left on the battle field and command the rest of them, it even floated the ideas that he may get injured and that the other Dwarves rally to him. Whilst I don't think we'll get the injury bit, I reckon he will be left behind as the senior member of the company and to lead the battle on with Dain.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 23 2015, 4:16pm
Post #25 of 33
(412 views)
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it's getting Thorin back with Dwalin, Fili and Kili....
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Not that I wouldn't have gone for an epic Ben Hur shot of Thorin in a war chariot, hair streaming in the breeze, a couple of orcs stuck on the wheels going round and round (kind of like the Indiana Jones tank thing....) 
Anyway 1) I love, love the rams the more I see them - tough looking beautiful animals, and 2) maybe the chariot had to be cut re earlier comments of having to "cut quite a lot, to keep the PG rating" as perhaps the chariot causes a lot of carnage.
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