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Legolas_Shoehorn
Bree
Jan 22 2015, 5:22pm
Post #1 of 30
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Tauriel: Legolas' sister?
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I wonder if this was the original concept for Tauriels character before the 3 movie split?
Tauriel could be the reason for the death of Thranduils wife (died in childbirth). Legolas has to choose between his loyalty to his
father and his fondness for his sister - of course he decides to rescue/help his sister after she leaves Mirkwood.
That context feels actually more organic than the forced love triangle (Boyens: "This is for the girls."  )
What do you think?
My English is not that good, my Elvish is better ;-)
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jan 22 2015, 5:31pm
Post #2 of 30
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Tauriel's original character was named something different (though as I recall it still held basically the same meaning "Daughter of Mirkwood". And the casting call was still something like "Captain of the Guards of Mirkwood" with a few character traits which still lined up with Tauriel.
It can be confirmed that the love story element wasn't in the original drafts by comments from Evangeline Lilly herself. It's likely before that she was a fairly minor character whose role was greatly expanded in the final pickups of the film.
I'm fine with this. At first I wasn't too keen on her, at all. DoS didn't really wow me with her character, but I think BotFA actually helped me appreciate her much more in DoS so I have no complaints about her role.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jan 22 2015, 6:04pm
Post #3 of 30
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Funnily enough I posted about this elsewhere yesterday...
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We were always going to get a romance injected into the story, probably to tick the initial casting call (not just the Reddit guy's hearsay) included "Itaril" - an Elf of Mirkwood who was in love with an Elf lord (apparently of Rivendell from the male role description!) This was when GdT was still at the helm.
http://www.movies.spoilertv.com/...it-casting-call.html
I think I'm right in saying that Tauriel only emerged after PJ took over. PB has admitted that they always wanted to expand on the Gimli-Galadriel relationship so that was the basis for the Tauriel/Kili storyline. We also know that Aiden Turner initially auditioned as an Elf so I guess he was always slated for the romantic "lead."
https://www.facebook.com/...92897&permPage=1
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Imladris18
Lorien
Jan 22 2015, 6:10pm
Post #4 of 30
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Tauriel came about with GdT's influence, while he was still on board.
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I believe it was in the Empire BotFA interview with Boyens.
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jan 22 2015, 6:18pm
Post #5 of 30
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Drogo and Primula? Wha? How would that have even worked? I guess it would have been a very different ending at one point or something?
The mention of an Elf-Lord of Rivendell is very strange as is the lack of Thranduil the Elven King. But it looks like you're right. Itaril/Tauriel was always going to be embroiled in some romance whether with Elf-Lord of Rivendell (One of Elrond's boys?) or with Legolas (incidentally another Elf-Lord) /Kili.
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jan 22 2015, 6:32pm
Post #6 of 30
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It's an interesting thought, but since Itaril/Tauriel was meant to be a Woodland Elf (Silvan) from the beginning, she could never have been a relative of Legolas (Grey Elf, Sindar).
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 22 2015, 7:14pm
Post #7 of 30
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(in a dark room)
Sauron: You cannot hide forever, Legolas.
Legolas: I will not fight you.
Sauron: Give yourself to my side. It is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you. Your feelings for them are strong. Especially for... sister. So, you have a younger sister. Your feelings have now betrayed her, too. Thranduil was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete. If you will not turn to my side... then perhaps she will...
Legolas: [pulling out sword, screams] NEVER!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 22 2015, 7:15pm
Post #8 of 30
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The original character was called Itaril, derived from Idril's original Quenya name of Itarille or Itarilde ('sparkle-brilliance'). She was supposed to be a Wood-elf maid with a talent for sword and bow who falls for an Elf-lord of Rivendell.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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TnuaccayM
Bree
Jan 22 2015, 8:51pm
Post #9 of 30
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I don't know why everyone talks about "love triangles"
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In the film it's never explicitly shown that Legolas was in love, or that he was afraid to loose her to a dwarf. The only thing that Thranduil says is that he has grown very fond of her. In a way what we see in the films is just an elf prince and his female friend. He obviously initially didn't want Tauriel to be with a dwarf because, pretty much like his father thought of it, it seemed wrong. But that changed through the course of these movies, when he is faced with the decision of either helping Tauriel and the dwarves or following his duty as the king's son.
For me there was no romance between Tauriel and Legolas. In this last movie he didn't even have a problem when Tauriel wanted to go help Kili in Ravenhill. And in his last fight with Bolg, it seemed like he just wanted revenge. It wasn't really an act of love. For me the only romance was the between Tauriel and Kili, no one more. For me their relationship is more like brother and sister than just a romance. I think people just keep insisting on the "love triangle" thing just because they don't like the added character's to the story.
Sometimes the internet can be poisonous. Many people don't even try to reach their own conclusions because is easier to believe what other people say. Even if Evangeline Lilly refers to it as a love triangle for me there's no such thing.
(This post was edited by TnuaccayM on Jan 22 2015, 8:54pm)
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 22 2015, 9:08pm
Post #10 of 30
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I was not a fan of the idea of a love triangle, and also did not see one in DoS. But I have walked away from Bo5A convinced that Legolas was romantically interested in Tauriel. And also, that he is an exceptionally fine human being. (I like where all the Elf drama wound up, in this movie).
I see no other explanation for his abrupt decision to leave, which he communicates to his father at the end of this film, than that he canot bear to stick around in the immediate aftermath of these events, now that he realizes Tauriel was truly in love with Kili. He watches her grieve over him, and then makes this decision.
So why did he support her, and go with her on her mission to save the Dwarves? Partly, because he was persuaded by her that the battle against the Orcs generally, "is our fight", and partly because it was important to her.
Why do you think he made this sudden decision to leave (his words were something like "I cannot stay", or "I must leave", not "I think I'm going to"...)
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jan 22 2015, 9:27pm
Post #11 of 30
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Oh my gosh - does that mean....
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that Sauron is really Leggy's father?
Noooooooooo.....!!!!
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jan 22 2015, 9:31pm
Post #12 of 30
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I was not a fan of the idea of a love triangle, and also did not see one in DoS. But I have walked away from Bo5A convinced that Legolas was romantically interested in Tauriel. And also, that he is an exceptionally fine human being. (I like where all the Elf drama wound up, in this movie).
I see no other explanation for his abrupt decision to leave, which he communicates to his father at the end of this film, than that he canot bear to stick around in the immediate aftermath of these events, now that he realizes Tauriel was truly in love with Kili. He watches her grieve over him, and then makes this decision.
So why did he support her, and go with her on her mission to save the Dwarves? Partly, because he was persuaded by her that the battle against the Orcs generally, "is our fight", and partly because it was important to her.
Why do you think he made this sudden decision to leave (his words were something like "I cannot stay", or "I must leave", not "I think I'm going to"...)
But after seeing the movie for the 3rd time, he did look a little sad when he stopped his dad from killing her, like he realized she really did love Kili - but he still agreed to go with her and help the Dwarves. That actually says alot about him, about his ability to put his wounded feelings aside and stand by his friend/love interest. And I agree, her mourning was painful for him to watch (along with many in the audience, LOL!), realizing that she chose the Dwarf over him, so he left. And I guess Thranduil came to regret his actions, which alienated his son. It's annoying that it wasn't explained, one line would have done it, but I can't help but think Thranduil would allow Tauriel to come back if she wanted. Not sure she would want to, though, after all that, but that's another subject.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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TnuaccayM
Bree
Jan 22 2015, 9:40pm
Post #13 of 30
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That's one way to look at it, and I'm glad to know you reached your own conclusion. My point was that it wasn't a forced love triangle. It pretty much leaves it to the audience to decide, like you did :P
Its something more complex than just a romance.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jan 22 2015, 10:56pm
Post #14 of 30
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Yes, GdT was on board when they came up with the idea of a female Elven warrior
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who was to be the Itaril character in the casting call I posted - and who was to fall in love with another Elf...
My assertion was that it was PJ and PB who renamed Itaril Tauriel, and developed the idea of the romance with a dwarf instead, (because they were so enamoured of the Gimli/Galadriel relationship) and that Aiden Turner was to have been the Elven love interest for Itaril, before they asked him to play Kili instead, as in the FB video I linked.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 22 2015, 11:37pm
Post #15 of 30
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I don't know if it was, but from what I remember...
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..the change of name for the new female elf came after Saoirse Ronan turned down the part and Evangeline Lilly was cast. Given that the two actresses are so very different in age and in looks I wonder if that was a reason why the storyline changed.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 23 2015, 1:21am
Post #16 of 30
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all three of the Elven characters are written as leaving a lot unsaid, not in a bad/ omission/ mistake way, but as part of their characterization. Legolas never tells Tauriel how he feels, Thranduil does not tell his son he loves him, etc.
So to me, Thranduil saying to Tauriel "because it was real" seemed enough. Without saying explicitly "I misjudged you, I am sorry" or anything of the sort, it seemed to me that was what it meant. Because it is a taking back of what he said to her during heir confrontation.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 23 2015, 1:40am
Post #17 of 30
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all three of the Elven characters are written as leaving a lot unsaid, not in a bad/ omission/ mistake way, but as part of their characterization. Legolas never tells Tauriel how he feels, Thranduil does not tell his son he loves him, etc.
So to me, Thranduil saying to Tauriel "because it was real" seemed enough. Without saying explicitly "I misjudged you, I am sorry" or anything of the sort, it seemed to me that was what it meant. Because it is a taking back of what he said to her during heir confrontation.
I thought all the Elves used this way of communicating. I think Legolas' "I cannot go back" is a rejection of Thranduil as he is at that moment, and as well as what has come before in their closed-off life: the 'with you' that I hear in my head at the end is left off; their relationship is cloaked in silence and denial of strong feeling because Thranduil has shut himself off since the tragic deaths of his father and (I presume) wife at the hands of darkness.
When Thranduil tells Legolas goodbye, I think he uses 'your mother' as a proxy name to cover what HE is feeling: and as it is true, its a conglomeration of parental love. Thranduil has taken the step to acknowledge it in himself, which is brave, but cannot say it just yet ... but under the emotional duress it comes out sort of sideways.
And the same for his words to Tauriel. All in all, the portrayal of an Elf whose tenderest emotions have made him terribly vulnerable, and he can feel them but isn't prepared to show his throat to world, so to speak. Thus he speaks in cipher.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 23 2015, 1:42am)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jan 23 2015, 3:34am
Post #18 of 30
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We were always going to get a romance injected into the story, probably to tick the initial casting call (not just the Reddit guy's hearsay) included "Itaril" - an Elf of Mirkwood who was in love with an Elf lord (apparently of Rivendell from the male role description!) This was when GdT was still at the helm. http://www.movies.spoilertv.com/...it-casting-call.html I think I'm right in saying that Tauriel only emerged after PJ took over. PB has admitted that they always wanted to expand on the Gimli-Galadriel relationship so that was the basis for the Tauriel/Kili storyline. We also know that Aiden Turner initially auditioned as an Elf so I guess he was always slated for the romantic "lead." https://www.facebook.com/...92897&permPage=1
It doesn't really mean anything. What they use for audition material really isn't necessarily what they are slated to play esp if the script is still in very rough form. Sometimes for initial auditions they only use a relatively few characters. I mean way back when Lost was being cast, at least half the male actors who were cast auditioned by reading for Sawyer and then were slated into other parts.
Per one of the AUJ books, Aidan actually read for quite a few parts because they liked him so much, the elf was just the first audition, then they tried a few others on him before they decided on Kili.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Jan 23 2015, 3:49am)
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jan 23 2015, 3:44am
Post #19 of 30
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I was not a fan of the idea of a love triangle, and also did not see one in DoS. But I have walked away from Bo5A convinced that Legolas was romantically interested in Tauriel. And also, that he is an exceptionally fine human being. (I like where all the Elf drama wound up, in this movie).
I see no other explanation for his abrupt decision to leave, which he communicates to his father at the end of this film, than that he canot bear to stick around in the immediate aftermath of these events, now that he realizes Tauriel was truly in love with Kili. He watches her grieve over him, and then makes this decision.
So why did he support her, and go with her on her mission to save the Dwarves? Partly, because he was persuaded by her that the battle against the Orcs generally, "is our fight", and partly because it was important to her.
Why do you think he made this sudden decision to leave (his words were something like "I cannot stay", or "I must leave", not "I think I'm going to"...)
Because he realized it was the right thing to do after being pretty much cooped up in Mirkwood for a good portion of his life? Because he needed to get away from his over-bearing father and find out who HE really was? And he needed to do it now because he'd lost so much time already that he didn't want to wait any longer. He said it so decisively because he'd made a decision - why should he prevaricate with "maybe I'll" and "I think perhaps"?
I didn't think Tauriel had anything to do with his wanting to leave BEYOND the fact she opened his eyes to the fact that "this is our fight". Once opened, he would not, could not close them again.
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jan 23 2015, 4:08am
Post #20 of 30
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In the film it's never explicitly shown that Legolas was in love, or that he was afraid to loose her to a dwarf. The only thing that Thranduil says is that he has grown very fond of her. In a way what we see in the films is just an elf prince and his female friend. He obviously initially didn't want Tauriel to be with a dwarf because, pretty much like his father thought of it, it seemed wrong. But that changed through the course of these movies, when he is faced with the decision of either helping Tauriel and the dwarves or following his duty as the king's son.
For me there was no romance between Tauriel and Legolas. In this last movie he didn't even have a problem when Tauriel wanted to go help Kili in Ravenhill. And in his last fight with Bolg, it seemed like he just wanted revenge. It wasn't really an act of love. For me the only romance was the between Tauriel and Kili, no one more. For me their relationship is more like brother and sister than just a romance. I think people just keep insisting on the "love triangle" thing just because they don't like the added character's to the story.
Sometimes the internet can be poisonous. Many people don't even try to reach their own conclusions because is easier to believe what other people say. Even if Evangeline Lilly refers to it as a love triangle for me there's no such thing.
I agree. IMO Legolas brooding a bit in the background does not a love triangle make. :)
Also someone referred above to the original script not having Tauriel with a love interest per Evangeline. But that isn't what she said. She said there was no "love triangle" in the script. The love triangle(or Legolas indigestion, whatever you want to call it) was a later addition and it was mainly based on "hey he looks a bit put out in this scene...maybe he's jealous?" on the part of the filmmakers.
Besides IMO Tauriel was never really torn in her feelings--I feel like she was more uncomfortable when Thranduil brought it up, maybe it had been a minor idea she'd played with in her head from time to time but nothing more than that, and then truly hurt when Thranduil actually agreed she was nothing more than a lowly Silvan elf. It was more about realizing how little respect he had for her based on her heritage, despite having taken her in, than her feelings for Legolas. So it's not so much a love triangle, at most it's two people falling in love and someone else friendzoned.
But I wouldn't even think that if no one had mentioned love triangle, I'd think he just didn't want his friend to "ruin" her life falling for one of those horrible hairy ugly dwarves. :)
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 23 2015, 4:40am
Post #21 of 30
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http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=829615#829615
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 23 2015, 4:44am
Post #22 of 30
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I have heard a psychologist say something to the effect that mind reading and assuming is a dangerous thing... that expression of distaste may just indicate gas...
And indeed, there are plenty of folks who fall to the poison of the internet and can't make their own judgements.
Also fervently and adamantly sure that every time we have a guy and a girl in the same scene it doesn't have to be a romance...
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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Imladris18
Lorien
Jan 23 2015, 5:14am
Post #23 of 30
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The quote basically says Tauriel was a product of GdT collaboration... definitely implying it was more than just the Itaril stage that GdT was involved with.
I'll do some more digging tomorrow.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jan 23 2015, 7:18am
Post #24 of 30
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was "very supportive" of their decision to create Tauriel...but that could possibly be shorthand for supportive of the decision to create a female Elven warrior. But in any case, I'm sure he did remain involved regarding the script outline, even after he was no longer directing. But nonetheless, the casting call that went out when he was still director is for Itaril.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jan 23 2015, 7:26am
Post #25 of 30
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No one seems to mention the words Legolas says
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when he defends Tauriel from Thranduil and says he is going with her to Ravenhilll: "You may command me...but you do not command my heart!"
This to me is the biggest indication of where his feeling lie...
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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