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boldog
Rohan
Jan 21 2015, 6:42am
Post #1 of 24
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Azog should have spoken Common tongue in certain parts!
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I really cant stand this! In the scenes where he is speaking directly to the dwarves he still talks in Orcish!
Doesnt that seem rather silly?
In AUJ when he is mocking Thorin, he speaks orcish. Thorin wont have any clue what he is saying, so he doesnt really feel the fear that he should, if Azog spoke common tongue.
And the biggest one which would have been so much more effective in Common tongue, is Filis execution. The foreboding speech he gives to the dwarves, would make any who hear it tremble, and get outraged. The death of Fili was outrageous and horrible enough, but to have the mocking words understood by those listening, would have a much deeper effect.
The instance where he speaks Orcish to Gandalf in DOS, im fine with, because Gandalf would have likely understood what he was saying.
And also on a little side note, wouldnt it have been better if Azogs death was like this:
He tabs Thorin as in the movie. As he holds the sword in Thorins stomach, he mockingly says to him in pride, in common tongue "Now, the line of Durin ends" Then Thorin stabs him as in the movie. As he is struggling on top of Azog, he says to him "The line is not ended. Dain lives!" And then he stabs the sword through the ice, and the rest continues as the film. This is added with the fact that Thorin knows Kili is dead too.
To me some small dialogue like that, would have added much more Drama into an otherwise Action centered Duel.
Thoughts?
Azog and Bolg. That is all I can say.............
(This post was edited by boldog on Jan 21 2015, 6:44am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 21 2015, 11:11am
Post #2 of 24
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Azog was using the Black Speech of Mordor, not Orkish. However, you're right that he should have been using Westron if he wanted to be understood.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 21 2015, 12:07pm
Post #3 of 24
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Perhaps he's not good at languages... //
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 21 2015, 12:15pm
Post #4 of 24
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It is likely that he doesn't know any other language. I'm sure he didn't attend school.
I also don't think the alternative ending to Thorin's death postulated here would add anything to the film. I don't think the 'duel' could have been anything more than 'action centred' – Azog was inhumane filth, not worthy to be talked to.
Really, the bizarre things people try to to nitpick…
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 21 2015, 12:19pm
Post #5 of 24
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...though it seemed to me that a lot of Azog's speech does not really require to be understood word for word. One could figure out the general gist of it from context, his actions, and his tone/expressions, it is not (when addressed at Thorin) intended to convey surprising information Azog needs Thorin to understand.
Specifically at the end - I don't think dialogue would have been a good idea.
I liked that he did use the Black Speech generally. I felt it added authenticity in the same way as the Elf characters' occasional use of Elvish.
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Jan 21 2015, 2:44pm
Post #6 of 24
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...though it seemed to me that a lot of Azog's speech does not really require to be understood word for word. One could figure out the general gist of it from context, his actions, and his tone/expressions, it is not (when addressed at Thorin) intended to convey surprising information Azog needs Thorin to understand.
Also, it's possible, even though Thorin does not speak or understand Black Speech fluently, he may have picked up on a few key words over the years.
As for Azog's/Thorin's death scene, I think it worked well without dialogue. Their facial expressions - Azog's smug grin when he stabs Thorin and the way Thorin watches Azog die - said it all. You didn't need words to know what either one was thinking. Also, I'm not even sure if Thorin was even thinking of Dain at that point. If he was thinking if anyone it was probably his grandfather, father, and nephews.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Jan 21 2015, 3:39pm
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As I understand it, Tolkien intended Black Speech itself to be repulsive--a thing with evil overtones, no matter what is said in it, an anathema to Free Peoples. The PJ movies exemplify this well in a couple of spots: the Council of Elrond in FOTR, when Gandalf speaks it and everyone (like Elrond) looks kind of ill; and secondly, in the DOS prologue when Gandalf offers Thorin the evidence of the price on his head--until he mentions that it's Black Speech, and Thorin recoils from it.
So I guess to me having Azog speak Black Speech simply makes whatever he's saying more horrible. I would also venture to say that his actions speak far louder than the meaning of his words.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Arannir
Valinor
Jan 21 2015, 3:53pm
Post #8 of 24
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I thought you of all people would understand the nit-pick.
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After all, you nit-picked on every aspect of Legolas' eyes over the last year 
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 21 2015, 4:05pm
Post #9 of 24
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What does that have to do with the subject being discussed here?
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I disliked the way Legolas's eyes were portrayed in DoS (and still do) – and not 'every aspect' of his eyes, since it was only one aspect, the unflattering CGI used on them. It was not a mere 'nitpick', but a criticism of badly done CGI. I am glad to see that the CGI on his eyes was much improved for BoFA, apart from in the first shot of him with the Laketowners.
Moreover, I disliked the way Legolas was portrayed in general in DoS, and still do, but feel it is pointless carping on about things I don't like any more, rather than focusing on the positives.
In any case, this is irrelevant to the subject being discussed here.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jan 21 2015, 4:07pm
Post #10 of 24
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It was a tongue in cheek comment.
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Sorry if it came across in an offending way.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jan 21 2015, 4:16pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 21 2015, 4:14pm
Post #11 of 24
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I didn't realise it was tongue in cheek. Please accept my humble apologies (I'm feeling a bit 'sore' at the moment and am tending to over-react). x
Sorry it it came across in an offending was.
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jan 21 2015, 11:19pm
Post #12 of 24
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that Thorin didn't understand Azog. Given his reactions when Azog spoke (particularly about Thrain), I just assumed that Thorin knew exactly what he was saying.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jan 21 2015, 11:20pm)
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Lio
Lorien
Jan 22 2015, 1:55am
Post #13 of 24
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I hope I'm not misremembering, but I think one of the Chronicles books talks about how both Orkish and Black Speech are used in the movie, and Azog knows both. He would use Black Speech when speaking with the Necromancer, and Orkish in other instances.
Anyway back to the original topic, I kind of agree it would have been more effective for Azog to taunt Thorin in common speech before Fili's execution. I can't imagine Thorin knows Orkish and understands what he's saying, though of course we as the audience get subtitles so it's a bit of a trick. 
Now, why would Azog keep using Orkish even though Thorin can't understand him? Maybe his words are more intended for himself or his allies? Or maybe he's too cool to use common speech?
Dwalin Balin Kili Fili Dori Nori Ori Oin Gloin Bifur Bofur Bombur Thorin
Orcs are mammals!
"Don't laugh at the Dwarves because they will mess you up." — Dean O'Gorman (Fili)
Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser! (Does anyone still use AIM?)
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Harukalioncourt
Registered User
Jan 22 2015, 6:42am
Post #14 of 24
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Orcs bred by Saruman knew common speech, at least as far as the movies portrayed. In The Two Towers when Legolas and Gimli interrogated an Orc asking what happened to Aragorn, the Orc answered in common speech "he had a little tumble off the cliff," or something. Sauron's orcs didn't seem to be that educated. Orcs were bred for one purpose and one purpose only-- to fight and do any other bidding of their master, not for diplomacy or negotiating, etc. Black speech was pretty much all they needed to communicate, and Orkish was used probably when discussing every day things with each other. Orkish probably is some twisted combination of elfish and black speech put together.
(This post was edited by Harukalioncourt on Jan 22 2015, 6:43am)
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moreorless
Gondor
Jan 22 2015, 8:17am
Post #15 of 24
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I think it worked with the kind of dialog Azog had...
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We've seen Orcs speaking English/Common speech elsewhere in Jacksons films but its generally tended to be either orcs as screaming monsters(Lurtz), like cockney gangsters(Ugluk, Shagrat) or more cartoonishly(the Great Goblin, Moria goblins with the Uruk Hai). The only Orc who really came close to Azog in ROTK was Gothmog and personally I thought he cam across as a bit too ham fisted in his rather simplistic grand standing pronoucements of doom.
Azog only talking in the black speech does I would say lend him a certain dignity and "alien" nature whilst allowing him to keep to the same kind of brutish dialog we expect from an orc.
Indeed as I'v said before I suspect that Azog being CGI may have partly been a reaction to Gothmog not being quite as successful as some of the other orcs in LOTR although obviously they tried to go live action first.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Jan 22 2015, 8:20am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 22 2015, 2:15pm
Post #16 of 24
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Azog could use both Orkish and Black Speech as required. However, Orcs often used some form of Westron between clans because there were many dialects of Orkish and it was frankly easier to be understood using the common tongue.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Loresilme
Valinor
Jan 22 2015, 3:51pm
Post #17 of 24
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I think it would have diluted the effect
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I felt that Azog was a much more fierce and formidable Orc than any of the other orc characters in either TH or LOTR, and I really felt a lot of it was in fact because he didn't use the common tongue.
The manner of his delivery, the way he articulated and then sort of spat out the words with such venom, along with the harshness of the sounds, made Azog seem waaaay more threatening to me.
Not only because it seemed so vile and brutal, but it also made him as a character seem more alien, exotic, different - and so the more threatening and frightening.
And his vocal delivery which suited the orcish/black speech so well might have become ineffective with common tongue and sounded more like just some modern ganster-ish type of rough sounding speech.
If he'd suddenly spoken in common tongue I think it would have watered down that impact and he wouldn't have seemed as different or as threatening.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jan 22 2015, 3:52pm
Post #18 of 24
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I think they always pulled off the change of language moments.
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Even between the Elves... it somehow always felt natural although they would probably not speak Westron to each other.
I think most of Azog's speeches and commands are clear enough to be understood even by people not fluent in Black Language.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jan 22 2015, 3:53pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 22 2015, 3:54pm
Post #19 of 24
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Even without subtitles his intent would have been obvious and there was something far more menacing in the way he spoke because he couldn't be tied down to any particular accent or mannerism.
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jan 22 2015, 5:51pm
Post #20 of 24
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I love the use of Black Speech for a couple of reasons...
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As I recall the appendices specifically mention Black Speech being the language created by Sauron for his servants a note goes onto say that the rabble and rank of Sauron's army could not use it well because they have so many different tribal dialects of it and couldn't accurately speak it to one another so they used the Common Tongue instead.
This I find, instead of making Azog and his cohorts into a "darker, more malevolent" force as some have said, it gives them a measure of nobility as far as Orcs are concerned. They're able to fluently speak their master's language which by LotR (movies) has fallen out of disuse by most of the troops showing that they are just rabble and not part of the exceptionally ?schooled? Orcs such as Azog and Bolg.
This also goes further into showing how Azog is a tactical general. He is different from every single enemy general throughout any of the movies. He doesn't use brute force, he uses strategy and even "war fan" like commands as if he was a Samurai. This works very well to show the danger that Azog could have posed had he lived to the War of the Ring. Beyond him Lurtz, Gothmog, and even the Witch-King didn't have any real advanced tactics for battle.
That he uses Black Speech and only Black Speech is icing on the cake, it shows his noble stature and it also displays that he feels that any other language is not worthy of his tongue.
I was divided on Azog at first but after seeing him BotFA he became so much better of a character.
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Bofur01
Lorien
Jan 22 2015, 6:02pm
Post #21 of 24
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... He only used Black Speech when talking to the Necromancer. He spoke Orkish in all of his other scenes - David Salo has a whole blog about the languages used for PJ's films, and Azog uses Orkish nearly exclusively.
(This post was edited by Bofur01 on Jan 22 2015, 6:03pm)
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jan 22 2015, 6:10pm
Post #22 of 24
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Good point. I did not know that.
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Hah... I could have sworn the words used for "Oakenshield" were the exact same in Orkish and Black Speech then? (Does he say Oakenshield when talking with Sauron? I thought he did)
That is rather interesting still, I checked out his blog and it is implied that Azog knows both languages but says that Black Speech is likely rarely used due to its distance from Mordor and so they use a Gundabad variation. That also makes a good deal of sense.
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Bofur01
Lorien
Jan 22 2015, 8:34pm
Post #23 of 24
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They probably don't have a specific word for "Oakenshield" in either language...
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... So Azog uses the name the orcs adapted from Westron, I'd guess.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Jan 23 2015, 6:31pm
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...of ''Oakenshield'' sounds a lot like the Dutch translation of it ''Eikenschild'', with a -u- added. What he says sounds like ''Eikenscheldu'', or as it would be pronounced in English (I think); ''I-can-shell-du''.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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