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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 22 2015, 4:06pm
Post #1 of 107
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Tauriel was supposed to be an inspiration for women...then BotFA happened.
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I'll admit I thought the whole idea of Tauriel was silly, but I was sold on her in DOS. She is a very strong, independent character with some great, strong scenes.
Then the third film happened. Tauriel was turned into a weak, always emotional character that needs help from men, which is a female movie trope.
Her scenes (from what I recall, can't find a screenplay):
1. Gathers up the kids to flee Lake-town playing the temporary role of their mother. Does not attempt to help the man choosing to fight (Bard) even though his son is brave enough to do so.
2. She says goodbye to Kili. She gets more emotionally upset than Kili does, even though Kili is supposed to be the one with the huge crush.
3. Goes north with Legolas. Is completely clueless about the area even though she's a high-ranking elf, and a man (Legolas) has to fill her in.
4. Stands up to a man (Thranduil). He sighs and disarms her easily. She gets emotional again.
5. Bolg beats the crap out of her. Needs a man (Kili) to save her from death.
6. She gets a second wind at seeing Kili's death, and is ready to avenge him. Bolg again beats the crap out of her. Needs a man (Legolas) to save her.
7. Cries over Kili. Says painfully awkward line about love. Cries some more.
8. We do not know her fate after the film, because apparently it's not important.
Tauriel was slaughtered in this film, both physically and emotionally. She doesn't kill anyone important, she is handily defeated by multiple characters, and she spends a large part of the film crying. She is trumped by the Lake-town woman that keeps calling out Alfrid for being a coward. That's how far Tauriel fell in this film.
(This post was edited by stoutfiles on Jan 22 2015, 4:08pm)
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Azaghâl
Lorien
Jan 22 2015, 4:15pm
Post #3 of 107
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Pretty much.
I never liked the idea of her in the first place, but after DoS I had warmed up to her (disregarding the awefull healing scene).
BotFA pretty much ruined her character. Good job PB and PJ, such a strong female character you created.
*Baruk khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!*
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Lindele
Gondor
Jan 22 2015, 4:18pm
Post #4 of 107
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Statements and thoughts like this are why stereotypes that you complain about exist.
So the only way for a female character to be strong is to make her more like a male? Give me a break. What a joke.
Emotion is a sign of weakness? Killing is a sign of strength?
I pity you.
(This post was edited by Lindele on Jan 22 2015, 4:24pm)
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jan 22 2015, 4:29pm
Post #5 of 107
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It's funny how the women are expected to be essentially The Bride from Kill Bill to be considered strong female characters.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 22 2015, 4:33pm
Post #6 of 107
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So the only way for a female character to be strong
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Killing is a sign of strength?
She's the captain of the Elven guard. She is cast as a strong, independent character in DOS. Are you saying that her character in DOS wasn't good, and that she needed a man to break her down into a unskilled fighter who's always crying so that we can respect her?
Emotion is a sign of weakness?
Maybe if the love were more believeable. She barely knew Kili; he complemented her looks, gave her a rock, and hinted at the size of the package. This is what their "love" was based on. To be a weepy mess over him throughout BotFA was baffling, and it made her look bad compared to the strong-willed character from DOS.
I pity you.
I pity these tropes. Films do this ALL THE TIME, there's a tough female that needs to have a man break down her walls and teach her about love. It's awful writing.
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FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien
Jan 22 2015, 4:33pm
Post #7 of 107
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Tauriel is actually quite a strong character in alot of ways.
She stands up to Thranduil, as previously noted.
Also Legolas is portrayed as more knowledgable about Gundabad, lets not forget that Legolas only agrees to leave Mirkwood and fight on behalf of the forces of good is because Tauriel persuaded him.
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Brandybuckled
Lorien
Jan 22 2015, 4:38pm
Post #8 of 107
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If they wanted to portray women in a more inspiring way, why not have Bard's girls do more than hide&scream under the table in DOS when the orcs attack?
NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 22 2015, 4:38pm
Post #9 of 107
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"Tauriel is actually quite a strong character"
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She stands up to Thranduil, as previously noted.
She bluffs, he calls her on it, and disarms her so quickly it's embarrassing. It might as well as been Alfrid with that bow/arrow. She's a freakin' captain of the guard, and her reaction time is that slow? Then she ends up crying. I fail to see how this was a proud moment for her.
lets not forget that Legolas only agrees to leave Mirkwood and fight on behalf of the forces of good is because Tauriel persuaded him.
Thank goodness, because she needs him to bail her out time and time again.
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LoremIpsum
Lorien
Jan 22 2015, 4:39pm
Post #10 of 107
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I always thought she was a Bilbo - like character in the movies
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Both her and Bilbo live a boring isolated life in their homelands, then they meet an outsider (dwarf) who awakens in them a desire for adventure and freedom. Both venture 'beyond the forest' so to speak driven both by curiosity for the outside world and compassion.
Both save Kili and Thorin from death (spiders, Azog) but fail to do so in BOFA (the eagles are too late for Thorin, Kili gets killed by Bolg). They even have tokens like the rune stone and the acorn and both break an unhealthy enchantment that fell upon the two dwarves (healing scene, Bilbo's words and influence was the main factor in Thorin defeating his dragon sickness)
I mean there's constant inter cutting between Tauriel and Bilbo in BOFA even shots looking identical - it can't be a coincidence.
IMHO, Tauriel's bravery does not come from the fact that she can fight but because she was brave enough to cross the borders both of her homeland and the borders of her own prejudice against dwarves and stand up for what she believes even at the cost of losing everything.
Same as Bilbo - he was just a decent guy who wasn't a fighter, didn't want the gold, just wanted his friends safe and to end the fighting. Even if it meant risking it all and giving the arkenstone to Bard.
That clashes however with the notion that females must fight to be strong hence Tauriel will be seen as weak - cause she loses a fight? A fight that Kili also loses and gets killed? It's not like you can win them all.
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Lindele
Gondor
Jan 22 2015, 4:43pm
Post #11 of 107
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She is captain of the guard...and she left because she didn't believe in what her king was doing. Then, in BOTFA she stands up to her king; she literally stands in the way of him and his army insisting that he doesn't leave. That isn't strong? You are saying she isn't strong because Thranduil overpowered her. Well guess what, he is thousands of years older than her and far more skilled than she is. It has nothing to do with gender to anyone but people looking for excuses to complain about gender roles.
Your argument that 'maybe if the love was believable' falls completely flat. Whether or not you believe it, it happened. Tauriel was moved and taken by a person that she really could not relate to on any level except that they both share a 'human' innocence and aren't bitter or brainwashed by their upbringing. The point is that she did fall for him, and in the story Kili dies so therefore she was emotional when he did...like any normal person would be when someone they love dies. If you want to see cheap two dimensional action hero female characters you are looking in the wrong place. And thank goodness PJ and co didn't go down that terrible road with these characters and films.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 22 2015, 4:43pm
Post #12 of 107
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"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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cartermoulton
Bree
Jan 22 2015, 4:46pm
Post #13 of 107
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i'm afraid you need to look at the history of gender representation in movies
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Tauriel constituted, as the OP explains well and as illuminated in BotFa, little more than the tip of a love triangle, desired by two male characters. At least in DoS she represented the idea of commitment to other peoples in other lands, but this is totally cast aside in the end. Instead, she is yet again a female character in need of saving, defined by her reliance on a stronger male character.
PJ, if you want to do something for women and girls growing up, give them something that breaks from convention and re-draws gender expectations.
Trivia: How many times do female characters talk to each other in this movie? 0.
"the road goes ever on and on..."
(This post was edited by cartermoulton on Jan 22 2015, 4:58pm)
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Lindele
Gondor
Jan 22 2015, 4:46pm
Post #14 of 107
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you are enforcing the stereotypes with your statement.
Just because Thranduil beat her does not mean she is weak. You really think that winning is what makes you strong?
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 22 2015, 4:51pm
Post #15 of 107
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If your character is defined as good at a certain job, and then you can't do that job, then that's nothing to be proud of.
I look at her skillset as similar to Legolas, yet for some reason she always needs bailed out by Legolas. Where is her defining moment where she does something with her skillset without needing help (particularly his)?
If the same scene had happened with Legolas, and Legolas was disarmed easily and started crying, i would be wondering what the heck happened to him as well. I'm sorry, but after DOS I expected more from Tauriel.
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Lindele
Gondor
Jan 22 2015, 4:52pm
Post #16 of 107
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perhaps you need to watch BOTFA again.
-She leaves her home to help these people in other lands (in BOTFA).
-She helps the people of Laketown (in BOTFA)
-She insists that Thranduil stay at the battle and help these people of other lands (in BOTFA)
And I will say yet again. All of your arguments lead to the conclusion that physical strength is how you define strength in a character. Yes Bolg is 'stronger' than her...as he should be. And yes Legolas is 'stronger' than her, as he should be.
You should try looking for other qualities of strength in people, other than physical strength.
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Lindele
Gondor
Jan 22 2015, 4:55pm
Post #17 of 107
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If Tauriel had been more skilled
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than Thranduil at fighting, that would have been a travesty. In no universe should she be stronger and more skilled at fighting than him, captain of the guard or not...
I am so thankful right now for the hands that these films were in.
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jan 22 2015, 4:56pm
Post #18 of 107
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A fantastic parallel LoremIpsum
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Both her and Bilbo live a boring isolated life in their homelands, then they meet an outsider (dwarf) who awakens in them a desire for adventure and freedom. Both venture 'beyond the forest' so to speak driven both by curiosity for the outside world and compassion. Both save Kili and Thorin from death (spiders, Azog) but fail to do so in BOFA (the eagles are too late for Thorin, Kili gets killed by Bolg). They even have tokens like the rune stone and the acorn and both break an unhealthy enchantment that fell upon the two dwarves (healing scene, Bilbo's words and influence was the main factor in Thorin defeating his dragon sickness) I mean there's constant inter cutting between Tauriel and Bilbo in BOFA even shots looking identical - it can't be a coincidence. IMHO, Tauriel's bravery does not come from the fact that she can fight but because she was brave enough to cross the borders both of her homeland and the borders of her own prejudice against dwarves and stand up for what she believes even at the cost of losing everything. Same as Bilbo - he was just a decent guy who wasn't a fighter, didn't want the gold, just wanted his friends safe and to end the fighting. Even if it meant risking it all and giving the arkenstone to Bard. That clashes however with the notion that females must fight to be strong hence Tauriel will be seen as weak - cause she loses a fight? A fight that Kili also loses and gets killed? It's not like you can win them all.
Well said, I was just thinking about this issue a couple of days ago and I came to a similar conclusion, except without the parallel but now that you put it there, the parallel is clear to see.
To me it's also clear that unlike the vast majority of elves in Mirkwood she does care about the state of the world which is why her "You will not run away!" line comes across as rather powerful when she's confronting Thranduil.
It's Thranduil actually who claims Tauriel's reasoning for doing this was because of Kili, Tauriel never says this.
As for her reaction time...? What? Thranduil is touted as one of the finest warriors and his blade is drawn in a flash, slicing the bow in half.
How she reacts upon Kili's death is reasonable for someone who has never lost anyone important before and since she is a young Elf, that's almost an expected reaction.
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 22 2015, 5:01pm
Post #19 of 107
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-She leaves her home to help these people in other lands (in BOTFA).
-She helps the people of Laketown (in BOTFA)
-She insists that Thranduil stay at the battle and help these people of other lands (in BOTFA)
-She left her home in DOS.
-She gets the kids on the boat. She lets one of them run off to help his father, the archer. She too is an archer, yet chooses to flee.
-She loses that argument, and cries.
And I will say yet again. All of your arguments lead to the conclusion that physical strength is how you define strength in a character.
Bilbo has no physical strength to speak of, yet he overcomes problems regardless. Tauriel does not. The point is, she fails at everything in BotFA.
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Old Toby
Grey Havens
Jan 22 2015, 5:02pm
Post #20 of 107
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Hear hear Aragorn the Elfstone!
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Although I do enjoy some of the physically strong female characters depicted in some films, the notion that women cannot be emotional and still be considered strong really gets me. That attitude is incredibly chauvinistic and demeaning. (I, having been a woman all of my life.....) That Tauriel gets assistance/support from others there....who happen to be male as they are the only other characters around...is immaterial. (Now where did I put my sword?)
"Age is always advancing and I'm fairly sure it's up to no good." Harry Dresden (Jim Butcher)
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cartermoulton
Bree
Jan 22 2015, 5:03pm
Post #21 of 107
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her ultimate role in this trilogy
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is to inject the dynamic of romantic love into the story, which is nowhere else to be seen (Tolkien didn't include any).
She
1. serves as a love interest to kili
2. serves as a love interest to legolas, which informs his relationship to Gimli in LOTR.
her final scene in the film proves this. it is how she is remembered and how she is left by the filmmaker.
"the road goes ever on and on..."
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Lindele
Gondor
Jan 22 2015, 5:05pm
Post #22 of 107
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is not noble at all. What a coward.
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 22 2015, 5:05pm
Post #23 of 107
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If Tauriel had been more skilled
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than Thranduil at fighting, that would have been a travesty. In no universe should she be stronger and more skilled at fighting than him, captain of the guard or not...
Common sense would tell Tauriel that standing up to Thranduil would mean not standing in range of his blade. It's like in other movies where people pull out a gun and then stand so close that the target can reach out and push the gun away. Another trope that's been done over and over, but believeable in most cases since the guy with the gun is not a skilled combatant.
It's clumsy, and Tauriel is old enough and skilled enough to know better. She comes off as an amateur in this scene. Again, switch her out with Alfrid and i wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 22 2015, 5:09pm
Post #24 of 107
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I disagree and agree with some things
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But mostly I'm disappointed that she doesn't have closure. They spent an awful lot of time building up an Elf/Dwarf love affair, creating an epic climax for them, and then it just sort of fizzled. Her character just disappears into nothingness.
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stoutfiles
Rohan
Jan 22 2015, 5:10pm
Post #25 of 107
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And rows it (at least I think she does, I can't quite remember). She also lets one of the boys run away. Very brave.
Again, it's not using her skillset properly. What if when going to Helm's Deep, Legolas/Aragorn/Gimli chose not to fight. "I know you can use our help fighting, but we'd rather stay with the woman and children escorting them". How very brave of them if they did this!
Sorry, but she should have helped Bard. Thank goodness his son was brave enough to do so, else Smaug never gets killed. Thank goodness she wasn't compentant enough to keep the kids together, else his son never gets to him and Smaug kills everyone.
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