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Dis, when did she know?

lionoferebor
Rohan

Jan 22 2015, 4:31am

Post #1 of 10 (807 views)
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Dis, when did she know? Can't Post

In book verse it took the Company somewhere around six months or so to reach Erebor. (This is an estimate time, forgive me I'd it's not exact). This means it probably took the same amount of time for word to reach Dis in Ered Luin about the death of her brother and sons. Or - worse case scenario - twice the time if she learned of it upon her arrival to Erebor. This is assuming she did not leave Ered Luin until the spring following the reclaiming of Erebor. Though, I would think/ hope Balin, Dwalin, and the others would try to get word to her sooner. Unfortunately, there is nothing in Tolkienn's writings (as fas as I am aware) that tells when and how she was told of their deaths. Either way Thorin, Fili, and Kili would have been long dead and buried by the time she was told or reached the Mountain. Any thoughts on this?


squire
Half-elven


Jan 22 2015, 6:25am

Post #2 of 10 (698 views)
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Well, what do we know? [In reply to] Can't Post

One may certainly speculate about this question, but it's pretty futile to work from Tolkien's writings in doing so. Dis appears once in his books: in the commentary on Dwarves in Appendix A of The Lord of the Rings. Here's what he says about her: "Dis was the daughter of Thrain II. She is the only dwarf-woman named in these histories." The accompanying family tree gives her a birth date of 2760 T.A.

So strictly speaking, we don't even know if she was alive at the time of the Quest of Erebor, much less where she was living if she was living, or how she heard of her family's deaths, if she ever did. We don't know if the other dwarves of Thorin's company had living mothers or sisters who might have been kin to Thorin's family, who might also have wanted news of the outcome of the quest. But then we can't know if dwarves even had the kind of attitude about deaths in the family that required as rapid notice as possible to all concerned; they may have been more phlegmatic about such things, given how long they harbored injuries in their memories once they did learn of them.

"Dwarves are strange folk", as Legolas said (and Gimli said the same of Elves!); as fun as it can be, I always feel kind of presumptuous when I second-guess Tolkien about customs and events he did not work out and write down himself.



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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jan 22 2015, 1:19pm

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Interesting. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

Bilbo left Hobbiton on (about) April 27, 2941. He reached Laketown on his birthday Sept. 22 (about 5 months). The company stayed there for about a ‘fortnight’. Bilbo returns home to the auction on June 22, 2942. (14 months total.)

So, I reckon if it took 5 months to reach Laketown/Erebor, and with all the adventures they had on the way, I would think, now that the lands were comparatively safe, a messenger Dwarf could reach the Blue Mtns. in a couple months or less to bear the sad news to Dis.




sevilodorf
Tol Eressea


Jan 22 2015, 2:22pm

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Would there be any possibility of birds taking the news? [In reply to] Can't Post

ravens or one of Radagast's avian friends. There's also the fact that when you compare the dwarves journey with those of LOTR the dwarves seemed to be lolly gagging on the road a bit. This opinion is based on Fonstad's maps in Atlas of Middle Earth. Messengers sent out after the battles would have been moving with haste. There's. Also the probability that Thranduil sent messages to Elrond who would have forwarded news.

Bilbo's delay in getting home was because he and Gandalf spent time with Beorn and also they took a roundabout path home.

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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jan 22 2015, 7:35pm

Post #5 of 10 (629 views)
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Well, we do know. . . [In reply to] Can't Post

The average life age of the Dwarves was about 250 years. Thorin was 195 when he was killed. Dis would have been 181 at the time, so we could ‘assume’ she was still alive. (Fili and Kili were in their 80s.)

We also know that Thorin went into exile after Smaug’s routing of Erebor. And we know he found his new home in the Ered Luin and we do know he lived there at the time of the Quest for Erebor.

Is it not logical then to assume that his sister Dis (and kin) also resided at that time in the Blue Mountains?




squire
Half-elven


Jan 22 2015, 8:12pm

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Logical, perhaps, but logic is the enemy of many good stories and creative authors [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree you've justified the kinds of assumptions many people like to make, using general facts about races and tribes to project specific statements about individual characters. But if I didn't know Celebrian had left the world, wouldn't I be justified in assuming she still lived with Elrond in The Hobbit and in The Lord of the Rings even if she never appeared in the stories? If I didn't know that Aragorn's mother had died, wouldn't the fact that his father had died before his time suggest to me that she was still alive when he began his quest for the crown? Gee, in general it seems Tolkien knocks off the women as early and often as he can - how many male orphans populate his tales? - so shouldn't I use that information to argue that the late lamented Dis is, most likely, the victim of the same donnish story-dynamic?

But I don't argue that - all I'm saying is there's not enough information about Dis to make any assumptions at all about her life, much less her life in relation to a story to which, when it was written, she didn't even belong, because it was over a decade before she'd even been created in the first place.



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jan 22 2015, 10:00pm

Post #7 of 10 (612 views)
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That’s a Rog on the logic. . . [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But I don't argue that - all I'm saying is there's not enough information about Dis to make any assumptions at all about her life, much less her life in relation to a story to which, when it was written, she didn't even belong, because it was over a decade before she'd even been created in the first place.l

But ‘my’ logic tells me that I may assume that Dis was alive and living in the Ered Luin with her family. True there’s no information about Dis, but there IS enough information about her kin to make what to me are logical assumptions. Whether she’s alive or not is near pure assumption, but her age at 181 seems fairly young for the natural death of a Dwarf. Her location however (assuming she is alive) is a more ‘logical’ assumption to me.

You ‘seem’ to be going outside The Hobbit and LOTR into other material in an attempt at making an assumption that we shouldn’t make assumptions? Hey, no problem; but it seems (I assumeSmile) a great deal of the postings on this site are presumptions.

So it seems (I’m assuming again) you’re being a tad unfair when you say – all I'm saying is there's not enough information about Dis to make any assumptions at all about her life

But we must allow ourselves to assume and fantasize or much of the fun and flavor of these exchanges departs.




NottaSackville
Valinor

Jan 22 2015, 10:13pm

Post #8 of 10 (639 views)
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Oh my - Tolkien would be horrified, but he's just like Disney... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Gee, in general it seems Tolkien knocks off the women as early and often as he can - how many male orphans populate his tales?


Probably the most deadly occupation is being the Mom in a Disney story (or the background to the story).

Notta

Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville


Darkstone
Immortal


Jan 23 2015, 5:19am

Post #9 of 10 (604 views)
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It's always been rather strange... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that the most conventional, well-adjusted, stable, and mutually loving family in television or the movies is the Addams family.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”


(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 23 2015, 5:21am)


NottaSackville
Valinor

Jan 23 2015, 12:39pm

Post #10 of 10 (602 views)
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Ha! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville

 
 

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