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Melian

emre43
Rohan

Jan 21 2015, 5:31pm

Post #1 of 18 (1092 views)
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Melian Can't Post

Why exactly was Melian (as a Maiar) living in Middle Earth. I assumed Maiar were sent to Middle Earth (either the five wizards by the various Valar or the Balrogs by Melkor) to fulfil a certain purpose.


Might anybody be able to shed any light on this for me please? Are any other Maiar other than those mentioned above known to have walked Middle Earth? Smile


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 21 2015, 7:11pm

Post #2 of 18 (933 views)
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all explained in The Silmarillion! but a quick answer might be [In reply to] Can't Post

In the First Age, the maiar and even the Valar sometimes used to hang out in Middle-earth. On one such trip, Milan is hanging about in the woods singing when the elf Elwė sees her and is immediately "enchanted". So much so that he misses the boat (well moving island) that he's supposed to catch to Valinor. He and Melian marry, and Luthien is their daughter. Elwė becomes known as Thingol, and is one of the leaders of the elves in the stories of the First Age.

~~~~~~

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 21 2015, 8:44pm

Post #3 of 18 (921 views)
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All that, and the main point is... [In reply to] Can't Post

...she chose to stay, as did Elwė/Thingol, and she "adopted" the body and appearance of an elf.

There seem to be lots of maiar with very diverse capabilities and inclinations, and the ability to choose their shape and lifestyle.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jan 21 2015, 8:44pm)


emre43
Rohan

Jan 21 2015, 10:29pm

Post #4 of 18 (878 views)
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Thanks [In reply to] Can't Post

I should really have remembered that! I


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 22 2015, 12:05am

Post #5 of 18 (904 views)
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About maiar gifts and Sauron... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's been a while since I've read the Silmarillion, but from memory Sauron lost the ability to change his appearance after the sinking of Numenor. Was the Sil explicit as to why he could no longer change? Did his corruption reach a point where this gift no longer worked for him? Did he expend too much of his energies during his duplicity on Numenor? Or was it something else?

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Ithilisa
Rivendell

Jan 22 2015, 3:40am

Post #6 of 18 (883 views)
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When Numenor sank, [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
"...[Sauron] was taken in the midst of his mirth, and his seat and his temple fell into the abyss. But Sauron was not of mortal flesh, and though he was robbed now of that shape in which he had wrought so great an evil, so that he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men, his spirit rose out of the deep and passed as a shadow and a black wind over the sea,...and to Mordor that was his home." [from the Akallabeth in the Silmarillion]


"I name you Elf-friend; and may the stars shine upon the end of your road!" - Gildor


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Jan 22 2015, 7:42pm

Post #7 of 18 (846 views)
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As I recall... [In reply to] Can't Post

Somewhere it is said that to take physical form, the Ainu (I cannot recall if if was in reference to Morgoth or Sauron) expended power to create the' form', and when it was destroyed, the power in it was dispersed--lost. IIRC, Tolkien went on to say that the Ring was another matter, and that while it existed, Sauron's power was not diminished-- no matter how many deaths he suffered. In its destruction, however, the power that had put into an external, physical form (and had until then acted as a safety net) was then lost to him, and he could no longer draw from it or take shape since the power remaining to him was too little.

I also recall that in reference to Morgoth, it was said that one of the reasons he hid deep in Angband was on account of the amount of power he had expended to strengthen his servants. As memory serves, it also said he was unable to flee the Valar because of the fact that the expenditure of power 'fixed' him more firmly to Arda and one shape, therefore he was destitute of the requisite power or ability to change form.

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 22 2015, 10:47pm

Post #8 of 18 (828 views)
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"...he could never again appear fair to the eyes of Men." [In reply to] Can't Post

That doesn't mean he can't assume any shape, just not a "fair" one. He obviously had some kind of shape at the Last Alliance, with fingers that could be cut off, and Gollum made a remark about his hand with 9 fingers "but that was enough".








Plurmo
Rohan

Jan 23 2015, 5:04am

Post #9 of 18 (813 views)
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She was a mole. [In reply to] Can't Post

There was a conspiracy involving Yavanna and Sauron for the development of aplications of geothermal engineering in Middle-earth to counter Aulė's Workshop emphasys on wood cutting and burning for metal smelting and building, which he adopted to boost his dwarf acolytes' economic advancement in the early stages of their history, before coal minning and coal furnaces were well developed.

Sauron had shown Yavanna that the building of enormous iron structures and the smelting of a virtually indestructible form of gold could be achieved without burning a single tree. Yavanna lobbied Aulė on the possibilities of Sauron's methods, but he would hear none of it, being obsessed about his dwarves. Aulė eventually expelled Sauron from the Workshop, on shaky accusations of him being a ringleader of sorts, and Sauron was forced into vagrancy and poverty.

Now Yavanna, who could not openly betray Aulė, because he had a hammer and there were no laws against domestic violence in Valinor by then, became a secret ally of Sauron during the early stages of Middle-earth's industrialization. They had great plans for the ecology of Middle-earth.

For example, Ithilien was a showcase of Sauron-Yavanna quality volcano cinders emission technology for fertilization purposes, but while Ithilien was taken by usurpers from Gondor who claimed that Sauron wanted to destroy it instead, some of the original quality cinders were obtained by Galadriel on the black market, who put it into little boxes with carved Gs and so fooled unsuspecting hobbits and readers, telling them that it was her "magic."

As you are begining to suspect, Melian, from Clan Yavanna, was sent by her as a mole and agent of influence, with the purpose of spying on Thingol and convincing him to wipe the wood consuming dwarves of Aulė out of existence. And she managed to make good on her pledge, while building a net of intrigue and an enchanted Girdle with the purpose of keeping Thingol from joining the Noldor revolt and protecting the great forests inside Doriath from being overrun and defiled by Glaurung.

So did Radagast, also sent as a mole in the Istari Order, helping Sauron, while making Saruman, the tree burner and irredeemable Aulė sycophant, appear to be the bad guy of the tale. One of Radagast's greatest feats was the instigating of the roasting of the people of Esgaroth, in revenge for them having cut a whole forest to make their city.

Despite the propaganda ("made by the elves, you know",) there's little evidence that Sauron was environmentally challenged. And the partnership of Sauron and Yavanna had the potential of creating a better Middle-earth. Instead, we got the "dominion of Men," and so the green Earth became a matter of legend indeed.


emre43
Rohan

Jan 23 2015, 9:53am

Post #10 of 18 (807 views)
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Another question [In reply to] Can't Post

Saruman describes himself, Gandalf, Radagast, Alatar and Pallando as 'wizards'. Alatar and Pallando are also often referred to as the 'Blue wizards', would Melian also be described as a wizard, or perhaps a witch? Witch implies a female sorcerer, but as we all know, the Witch King was a former king of men.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jan 23 2015, 3:26pm

Post #11 of 18 (808 views)
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I think Istar... [In reply to] Can't Post

... meaning "knower, wise one, wizard" basically (ista- "to know" plus -r "knower") was a word to mark out these Maiar on a mission.

Wizard is of course an English translation, but I don't think the Elvish was meant to apply to Melian, her being outside this particular order.

Galadriel was thought of, by some, with a word that Tolkien translated as "Sorceress"... but you know mortals and their naming ways (Necromancer, Witch-king).


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 23 2015, 3:31pm)


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 23 2015, 9:26pm

Post #12 of 18 (799 views)
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The 5 "wizards" that we know of were a special class of maiar spirits. [In reply to] Can't Post

They're often called "istari" since "istar" is the Quenya word for "wizard". They were sent to Middle Earth by the Valar to help in the fight against Sauron. They're discussed in the essay, "The Istari" in Unfinished Tales. Some critical quotes:


Quote
For with the consent of Eru [God] they [Valar] sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.
.....
...now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of magesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.


The last passage is very important, and explains why some of us get huffy when movie fans beg to see "Gandalf show his full power" etc.

We don't know how many there were, but five were mentioned explicitly. Melian was definitely not one of the Istari, and these five were all male.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jan 23 2015, 9:27pm)


emre43
Rohan

Jan 23 2015, 11:03pm

Post #13 of 18 (785 views)
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Nevertheless, Melian did possess very strong magical power [In reply to] Can't Post

The Girdle of Melian protected the entire city of Doriath for many years.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


Jan 24 2015, 12:07am

Post #14 of 18 (776 views)
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Oh, yes, stonger than the Istari, almost certainly.// [In reply to] Can't Post

 








PhantomS
Rohan


Jan 24 2015, 3:32am

Post #15 of 18 (774 views)
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'Witch' [In reply to] Can't Post

Witch is a term applied to women in modern thinking, but it can apply to male magic users as well, which is why the Witch-King is described as such. He is in fact known as 'a great sorcerer in his day ' as well.

Melian is not a 'witch' as such as she is using her own native power to maintain the Girdle of Melian ,rather than some dark arts learned from Sauron or Morgoth. Galadriel is accused of being a sorceress in the woods , in fact the Rohirrim call Lothlorien the 'Dwimerdone' which has 'Dwimmer' as a kind of witch. Of course Eomer is wrong, as Galadriel is using her own power boosted by Nenya as well. Similarly Melian is also not a wizard as no one actually sent her to Middle Earth- 'wizard' is a self referential term, like how Hobbits or Dwarves refer to themselves ("I'm a Baggins" / "son of Durin" ) it doesn't tell you what they actually are, it is what they are generally portraying themselves as. Melian has always been her own Maia.


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


Jan 25 2015, 2:03am

Post #16 of 18 (770 views)
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Thanks everyone. :) [In reply to] Can't Post

It's good to get that straight in my head again.

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Maciliel
Valinor


Jan 31 2015, 2:14am

Post #17 of 18 (727 views)
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wizards in middle-earth [In reply to] Can't Post

 
many times when characters discuss "wizards" in lotr and the hobbit, it strikes me strangely. in calling gandalf a wizard, and ascribing characteristics to him because he is a "wizard," implies that the discussers either are familiar with more of the istari or there are magic-wielding individuals throughout the culture which have some characteristics associated with them that recall the mysterious gandalf (and other istari, perhaps) in some way, so gandalf (and other istari, perhaps) get slapped with the moniker, "wizard."

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Feb 3 2015, 1:54pm

Post #18 of 18 (703 views)
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A Point of Interest To Me... [In reply to] Can't Post

is what Melian taught Galadriel specifically that the Valar did not when she in Valinor.

I think this is probably one of the most underestimated parts of her; I don't know of any Elf that got direct one-one-one instruction from a Mair who had no restrictions on using her powers in ME.

GOM

 
 

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