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Jeffrodo
Bree
Jan 20 2015, 3:56pm
Post #1 of 26
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Will more Star Wars = more Middle Earth movies?
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There has been some speculation on the board lately about the inevitability of more Middle Earth movies. Personally, I'd love to see it and I also think the huge box office of The Hobbit films will make it not only feasible but likely.
The big dividing point seems to be that IF there were, say, another trilogy to bridge The Hobbit and LOTR, the material would have to be largely invented by the film makers as there aren't any more Tolkien books that can be translated to film (currently).
That seems to be the sticking point...that these films are based on the Tolkien books. But with more "Star Wars" coming this year (and many years beyond) do you think that will influence New Line or Warner Bros to go back to Middle Earth?
My thoughts are this: for decades we all assumed "Star Wars" was over. Episodes IV-VI. Then suddenly we had the prequels. From 2005-2011 (?) pretty much everyone has assumed Star Wars was over as a film series. Heck, I own the "Complete" blu-ray set. Well, we all know how that turned out. Episode VII will beget VIII, IX, and probably many more.
What was once viewed as finite is now basically infinite. The removal of George Lucas from the Star Wars equation is not unlike new Middle Earth films that would be INSPIRED, not based, on the works of Tolkien.
I theorize that Middle Earth will go the same route. Maybe not go on forever, but certainly at least one more trilogy. 60 years between The Hobbit and LOTR is a lot of ground to cover!
I am growing more and more to like this idea. Peter Jackson has also commented that he might, in 2-3 years, be ready to head back to Middle Earth himself. I doubt Warner Bros would say no to that.
Obviously there are those among us who love Tolkien and what I'm suggesting would seem like blasphemy to "invent" new Middle Earth stories. It has happened of course in the video games. I would also suggest that to the vast majority of filmmakers and even the audience, they ultimately just want a good movie...whether there was a book first or not.
Given the box office, Hollywood's desire for sure things, PJ's comments about one day returning, and the new Star Wars films that will further convince the studio it's a good idea, more Middle Earth movies seem inevitable...it's just a matter of who will make them, what they will be about and when they're released.
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FrogmortonJustice65
Lorien
Jan 20 2015, 4:04pm
Post #2 of 26
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I doubt there will be movement towards more Tolkien films in the near future
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Would there really be that much excitement from general audiences for more Middle Earth films, especially if it covers mostly invented material?
I also think Warner Brothers will ride out the new Harry Potter spin offs for a while. Aren't they responsible for Batman and Superman as well? That seems like plenty to compete with Star Wars.
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Jeffrodo
Bree
Jan 20 2015, 4:08pm
Post #3 of 26
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You make good points about other WB films in development. I'd forgotten about the Potter spin-offs. But I think the question isn't how excited would audiences be...but rather: how much money does a studio want to make?
Film making is a business. They're going to see the huge profits from The Hobbit films and that will, I predict, move them forward with more movies. BOFA is now, what, the second highest grossing film of 2014...and it was released in mid-December! Look at Transformers 4. Lousy movie sure, but it made big bucks and a fifth film is already in development.
Also take into consideration that ticket sales have been declining. Hollywood is looking for sure things. Middle Earth IS a sure thing, given the track record of LOTR and Hobbit.
Besides, most movies are invented material. Very few are actually based on books. New Middle Earth films are a logical progression and not all that surprising a move.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 20 2015, 4:44pm
Post #4 of 26
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'Star Wars' and Middle-earth don't exactly equate.
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Disney's plans for more Star Wars movies does, on the surface, make the idea of more, original Middle-earth movies seem more likely. However, unless New Line sees a good possibility for another strong trilogy, I don't see it happening.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 20 2015, 5:23pm
Post #5 of 26
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I can't see a correlation between Star Wars and Middle Earth
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Unless I've got this completely wrong, Star Wars began with the first film in the 1970s. There was no pre-exisiting book to define the extent of the story and no author with rights to that story, and that's a crucial difference.
The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings were well-loved and successful books long before Peter Jackson's films were ever thought of. Tolkien sold the film rights on both, but the situation of who holds which rights seems to be very complicated, and none of Tolkien's other writings were included in that sale. So at most, the material in the LotR Appendix could be available to a potential film-maker, and that is far too sketchy to offer anything more than an outline for a film. And if a potential film had overcome the legal hurdles there is also that more intangible ownership that attaches to a familiar book. People feel a sense of ownership towards the story and mind very much how it is approached. It would take a very gifted writer, sensitive not only to Tolkien's style of writing but also to his beliefs, themes and ideas to produce something from the outlines of the LotR Appendix that would make a satisfying film people would want to watch. It's not like Star Wars at all really.
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Jeffrodo
Bree
Jan 20 2015, 5:34pm
Post #6 of 26
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It is like Star Wars in that they're both extremely popular fantasy film series. It's also like Star Wars in that both properties have been linked mainly to one creator: George Lucas and Prof. Tolkien. Both Star Wars and Middle Earth have in the past been viewed as "finite". Six Star Wars movies...and now six Middle Earth films.
I was simply comparing the two. Yes, they're different films with different origins. However, Star Wars is now moving beyond "Return of the Jedi" (which since 1983, most fans never dreamed would happen). And it's moving ahead without the direct involvement of Lucas. That was my point. If Star Wars can survive beyond the direct involvement of Lucas, can Middle Earth films NOT based directly on Tolkien books also have a life of their own?
You're also viewing it strictly from the book POV. I think my point was more based on the film series, which is a different animal. Yes, Middle Earth films were created thanks to Tolkien's books. One could draw a similar conclusion that the Star Wars films were based on Lucas' screenplays and notes. He is no longer writing Star Wars films, but new writers are carrying on in the spirit of what he established, while adding their own touches. Any new Middle Earth films would be similar in that regard.
Apples to oranges maybe. But they're both fruit. :)
(This post was edited by Jeffrodo on Jan 20 2015, 5:43pm)
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zalmoxis
Bree
Jan 20 2015, 5:52pm
Post #7 of 26
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I wonder whether they were entitled to glue the label "Tolkien" on a plot that would consist, as you seem to assume, of mostly invented material.
I'm quite confident that the Tolkien Estate would take legal measures to protect Tolkien's works from further exploitation.
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Jeffrodo
Bree
Jan 20 2015, 5:58pm
Post #8 of 26
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Is it different than all the Batman movies that are "based on the character created by Bob Kane"? In the case of Middle Earth, it's an entire world and a vast number of characters created by Tolkien.
For me, the books will always exist as they are. And that's great. They will never change.
Any future movies (assuming they're GOOD) are just gravy. We either have them...or we don't. Personally, I'd rather have them to (hopefully) enjoy. I love the world of Middle Earth. I would greatly look forward to a return trip there on the big screen.
Now, I say all of this as a fan who came to Middle Earth as a film fan FIRST. I can certainly understand the love for Tolkien's books that the "book firsters" may feel.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Jan 20 2015, 6:22pm
Post #9 of 26
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actually i think george lucas wrote 9 treatments for the story way before they started filming the first one, thats why they start at with episode 4 instead of one. subsequently and ineffectively he has sold all rights to the name so WB can do whatever they like.
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Misty Mountain Hop
Rivendell
Jan 20 2015, 8:37pm
Post #10 of 26
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I've always been curious about a stand alone movie.
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Trilogies are great and I love the complexities of them but they also bring all sorts of problems when it comes to connectivity, continuity, and things like that. I would love to see Peter tackle a one-and-done movie. I feel like the script would be better, the story would be tighter, and they would have more time to get the effects finished without squeezing so much activity into a small amount of time. You wonder why the first movies of the trilogies seem so beautiful and simplistic. Not saying that has anything to do with it. I just really feel like doing a single Middle Earth movie would bring something fresh and new to the table.
"Only, you've never done a hard day's work." - Merry
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 20 2015, 9:36pm
Post #11 of 26
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actually i think george lucas wrote 9 treatments for the story way before they started filming the first one, thats why they start at with episode 4 instead of one. subsequently and ineffectively he has sold all rights to the name so WB can do whatever they like.
Lucas's original ideas did amount to a sprawling, multi-generational epic, but I don't think he actually planned specifically for nine movies until after the original Star Wars proved to be a hit. Remember that Episode IV: A New Hope was not part of the orignal title but was added for the re-release.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 20 2015, 11:22pm
Post #12 of 26
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... between a film treatment no one has seen until the film comes out and a book that has been popular for decades and already has a big following with a personal investment in the story.
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Scalpy
Bree
Jan 21 2015, 1:03am
Post #13 of 26
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Considering the money these movies had made.
It also wouldn't surprise me to see some kind of animated spin-off similar to the Star Wars Rebels thing that is going on.
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MouthofSauron
Tol Eressea
Jan 21 2015, 3:23am
Post #14 of 26
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not until the rights to The Silmarillion are acquired.
The flames of war are upon you..
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Scalpy
Bree
Jan 21 2015, 3:51am
Post #15 of 26
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I can't see the Silmarillion being done
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But stories encompassing the time between The Hobbit and LOTR wouldn't surprise me. I wonder how the rights situation would play out in that.
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moreorless
Gondor
Jan 21 2015, 10:35am
Post #16 of 26
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This is really the key difference with rights..
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Is it different than all the Batman movies that are "based on the character created by Bob Kane"? In the case of Middle Earth, it's an entire world and a vast number of characters created by Tolkien.
For me, the books will always exist as they are. And that's great. They will never change.
Any future movies (assuming they're GOOD) are just gravy. We either have them...or we don't. Personally, I'd rather have them to (hopefully) enjoy. I love the world of Middle Earth. I would greatly look forward to a return trip there on the big screen.
Now, I say all of this as a fan who came to Middle Earth as a film fan FIRST. I can certainly understand the love for Tolkien's books that the "book firsters" may feel.
I'm no expert but my understanding is that the difference between the kind of rights deals that have existed for many superhero "franchises" and Tolkiens work is that for the latter its not just the rights to the stories that were sold but the rights to the characters, that is the ability to create a film about Batman that's quite independent of any existing story, probably only limited by when could be argued to be the essence of the character.
The rights that have been used to make Jacksons Tolkien films aren't the rights to characters or middle earth as a whole there the rights to certain stories. If any more films were created they would need to be based on material hinted at in The Hobbit, LOTR main text or the ROTK appendix. That does of course still leave a lot of ground that could potentially be covered though.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Jan 21 2015, 10:41am)
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Jeffrodo
Bree
Jan 21 2015, 11:21am
Post #17 of 26
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The entire point of my posts have been theorizing new Middle Earth movies, covering the time between The Hobbit and LOTR...not any other book, because there are no film rights for Silmarillion or any other book.
I agree we won't see a Silmarillion film any time soon.
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Jeffrodo
Bree
Jan 21 2015, 11:33am
Post #18 of 26
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New quote from Lucas, which kind of reinforces my point...
"The ones that I sold to Disney, they came up to the decision that they didn't really want to do those. So they made up their own. So it's not the ones that I originally wrote [on screen in Star Wars: The Force Awakens]."
That gets back to my comparison. If new Star Wars can be created without its creator, what's stopping new Middle Earth material that is inspired, not directly adapted from Tolkien?
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moreorless
Gondor
Jan 21 2015, 2:48pm
Post #19 of 26
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Personally the main thing I would want is another shift of tone..
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Personally a lot of the reason why the Hobbit films have remained interesting for me despite many story elements arguably being similar to LOTR is that they haven't directly copied the tone of those films. They've moved a bit closer to them than the book of course but the larger than life style of the Hobbit means that similar kinds of themes/locations/characters can be given a fresh twist.
I wonder if we see any other adaptations perhaps it might be worthwhile shifting things in the opposite direction, that is make things even more down to earth than LOTR. You look at the potential for a story based around the war with Angmar for example and I think the potential is there for a very grim tale.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Jan 21 2015, 2:49pm)
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 21 2015, 7:38pm
Post #20 of 26
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this could get interesting........
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most fantastic universes end up with a vast repertoire of books, films, comics etc...
Star Trek, Star Wars, Marvel, King Arthur, Robin Hood, Sherlock, Dr. Who, Harry Potter (though that one sticks a bit closer to the works of one living author)...
I'd like to see spinoffs... in the right hands. Specifically drawn from the books or not. Keeping to the spirit of the original works, but maybe not welded to them or carved in stone.
It might amount to good fanfiction, but, I'd like to see more Middle Earth onscreen.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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Harukalioncourt
Registered User
Jan 22 2015, 1:01pm
Post #21 of 26
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New quote from Lucas, which kind of reinforces my point...
"The ones that I sold to Disney, they came up to the decision that they didn't really want to do those. So they made up their own. So it's not the ones that I originally wrote [on screen in Star Wars: The Force Awakens]."
That gets back to my comparison. If new Star Wars can be created without its creator, what's stopping new Middle Earth material that is inspired, not directly adapted from Tolkien?
So many people have written Star Wars books, continuing the story as their imaginations saw fit, so apparently Lucas had given permission to these authors to continue on using his characters and writing books with the Star Wars name. Then he sold it so Disney has the copyrights now. However Christopher Tolkien and J.K. Rowling still hold the copyrights and trademark in The Middle Earth World and Harry Potter, so it would be hard if not impossible for people to come along, make up new stories with their characters without the original authors (or offspring's) permission. Lucas gave up his rights, the other two (Rowling and C. Tolkien) have not. That's the difference. However there are so many Middle Earth books (the similrillian, the tale of beren and luthien, etc) out there that they could make a ton of movies from them. The similrillian happens over such a long period of time one could make a seven or more part series from it, as it explains what happens between the creation of middle earth, and sauron's first fall. There is so much that could be done.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jan 22 2015, 1:23pm
Post #22 of 26
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Spin-offs and crossovers are trending...
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The worst idea I've heard lately was crossing 21 Jump Street with Men in Black. They also might be doing another King Kong vs Godzilla. *groan*
So it's basically inevitable that Middle-earth and Star Wars are gonna cross-over with an epic Luke vs Sauron battle. 
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 22 2015, 4:29pm
Post #23 of 26
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or at least fandom has...
so have TORNsibs...
http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=829615#829615
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 22 2015, 4:38pm
Post #24 of 26
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are kind of professional fanfiction...
And yes, many many people wrote their own versions of those characters' tales. And it worked pretty good. Not only Star Wars but Star Trek pretty much took up an entire wall back when we had bookstores.
The 1812 privateer Pride of Baltimore II had an author sail as guest crew... and write some part of a Star Trek novel aboard.
...uh, beam me up Master and Commander? Hoist the halyards Horatio Scotty?
I have walked those salty decks meself, perhaps some of the brilliance will seep into me bones...
And just to throw another marlinspike into the discussion, another favorite ship (Kalmar Nyckel) fueled the research side of the imagination of the woman who wrote a Pirates of the Carrrrrrribbean prequel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirates_of_the_Caribbean:_The_Price_of_Freedom...
so yeah, write on, give us more in whatever world, but do your research.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 22 2015, 4:40pm
Post #25 of 26
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has a wealth of ideas that could become an entire TV series.
Most of the book was written in such a Biblical/mythic bird's eye view style that I think it would be great to see it done up close and personal as a series, either films or quality TV. (BBC! PBS!!)
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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