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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jan 19 2015, 8:00am
Post #1 of 64
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Did Arwen have to die?
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She could have spent her days alongsde Aragorn, or his son, or she could have been the eternal queen of Gondor being close to the throne as an adviser.
Here I´m starting to think badly and has nothing to do with the point but (¿How promiscuous could have been an elf who prefered mortals all the time as a couple? An eternity of young lovers)
But, returning to the point, Elrond could had let her stay, and then , after Aragorn´s passing she could have sailed into the west, just as Legolas, Gimli, or Sam did, saving middle-earth all that drama
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 19 2015, 12:14pm
Post #2 of 64
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Am I misreading your question or thought Mr.A?
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She could have spent her days alongsde Aragorn, or his son, or she could have been the eternal queen of Gondor being close to the throne as an adviser. She spent one hundred and twenty plus years beside Aragorn and son as Queen of Gondor.
.. Elrond could had let her stay, and then , after Aragorn´s passing she could have sailed into the west, just as Legolas, Gimli, or Sam did, saving middle-earth all that drama -Aragorn “The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together. . .or else to abide the Doom of Men.”
-Arwen “Nay, dear lord,” she said, “that choice is long over, There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill:. . . For if this is indeed as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive.” -Appendix A, Tale of Aragorn & Arwen
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jan 19 2015, 12:44pm
Post #3 of 64
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Legolas sails long after Aragorn´s passing. Why she didnt? Why she had to take the same decision as his father? She wasnt in the same situation as Elrond by the time of choosing. She was innoncent
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 19 2015, 12:49pm
Post #4 of 64
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Bracegirdle's quote clears things up, I think...
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Arwen's understanding is that the choice she made to be mortal is irrevocable, no take-backs.
unless...
I don't know the answer if the question was "but why did she have to choose to become mortal in order to marry Aragorn &c?." (i..e What would have happened if she had tried to live that life without agreeing to be mortal?)
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 19 2015, 1:20pm
Post #5 of 64
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From the ‘Tale of Years’; …on March 1st came at last the Passing of King Elessar. . .Then Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, and sailed down Anduin and so over Sea, and with him, it is said, went Gimli the Dwarf. It seems from these words that Legolas sails soon after the death of Elessar not ‘long after’.
Arwen made the choice of the Half-elven, to become Man or Elf, as did Elros Elrond’s brother. Elros’ choice was to become mortal. Elros died; Arwen died; whereas Elrond chose to become of Elven-kind. Why would Arwen be given special dispensation after making her choice? As NoWiz says the Half-elven choice seems to be irrevocable.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 19 2015, 1:32pm
Post #6 of 64
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All I can think of is somewhere (too lazy to look up) it’s said that the Children of Elrond had to make the choice when (or before) Elrond left Middle-earth.
To twist your question – what if she chose to be of Elven-kind like her father and marry Aragorn? Uh, different races – no children? Whew! 
But then there's always that darn "Last Ship"!
*wipes sweat*
(This post was edited by Bracegirdle on Jan 19 2015, 1:34pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 19 2015, 2:58pm
Post #7 of 64
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...brings up a bag of Dungeons and Dragons Dice?
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If the question is "why can't Arwen stay elven, marry Aragorn, then move onto other projects after she's buried him?" then I think there's a mechanistic, or legalistic or gamer-like place to look (on the one hand), and there are answers that are about the themes of the book (on the other).
So - if one views the book as what Tolkien called a "vast game" , the answer would be to look up the Terms and Conditions of the "Choice of the Peredhil" and see whether there is a loophole. Recently I have been thinking of this as a "gamer-like approach". I don't mean that pejoratively. I get the term because it reminds me of Tolkien's "vast game" comment, and also the playing of games such as Dungeons and Dragons where one player (the Dungeon Master") sets up a story-based scenario for a game, but the other players make choices, often accidentally or deliberately finding loopholes which undermine the storyline the DM had in mind .
Yesterday I discovered an amusing comic strip presenting Lord Of The Rings as if it were a Dungeon and Dragons campaign, with all the attendant loophole chasing and so on: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612
I'm imagining the following kind of conversation would fit right in to that comic:
Dungeon Master: [acting as story narrator] ..."and so Arwen was required to make the Choice of the Peredhil: would she become mortal to marry the man she loved, or remain immortal and..."
Gamer playing Arwen: Hang on a moment - why can't I marry him AND stay immortal?
Dungeon Master: You can't! Its either-or!
Gamer playing Arwen: Where does it say that in the rules? Bet you just didn't think of that. I hate this campaign!
Sometimes we have a lot of fun here effectively trying to write the Missing Dungeon Master's manual of Middle-earth, to figure out what would happen in various speculative scenarios.
I think the reason this doesn't come up within the books is that Tolkien has a theme about showing us the costs of victory. The war is won, but not everybody has a good war, even if you might think they deserved to have a good war. For example, Frodo's health is ruined, Elrond and Galladriel lose the temporal kingdoms they have worked for ages (literally) to maintain: I think it's in line with this that Arwen gets what she wanted, but has to choose to die. Tolkien knows that we won't like it, and he's doing it on purpose to convey his theme.
To illustrate, I can go to Shamus Young and his "DM of the Rings" comic - "A lot of tension in a story happens when the characters do something against the wishes of the audience." It's a good observation I think - and I also like the joke he spins out of it, so here y'go:
A lot of tension in a story happens when the characters do something against the wishes of the audience. This isn’t really possible in the context of an RPG [i..e Role Playing Game, not Rocket-Propelled Grenade] , because the characters ARE the audience. It pretty much means you can’t create moments like the one where (in the books, mind you) Eowyn begs Aragorn to let her ride with him into battle, and he refuses because he has no right to accept. If you try, you’ll end up with nonsense ... because 90% of the players out there will simply let her join without a second thought. The other 10% will try to have sex with her first. http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1163
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 19 2015, 3:26pm
Post #9 of 64
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"Different races, no children"
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to me does not seem to explain this. If different races meant no children, we would not be discussing the choices of Elrond and his descendants because they would not exist.
To me this entire element of the Arwen/Aragorn story has only made sense by considering the afterlife. Men go on (maybe) to some mysterious fate Elves do not know of, whereas Elves can live forever, and if they die, they reincarnate. Thus by choosing to be mortal, Arwen is taking the chance that (presuming Men do indeed have their own afterlife) she will meet Aragorn again in it.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 19 2015, 5:30pm
Post #10 of 64
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I like this answer: "by choosing to be mortal, Arwen is taking the chance that (presuming Men do indeed have their own afterlife) she will meet Aragorn again in it. "//
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 19 2015, 6:46pm
Post #11 of 64
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to be of Elven-kind, married Celebrian, (an Elven lady), and they had three children. (Hey, aside: that’s another 3 for our 3 thread).
So there’s no mixing of races here.
But yea – could a Man and an Elf have children? It seems so, yes:
Thingol (Elf) and Melian (Maia) begat Luthien. Luthien (Elf/Maia) and Beren (Man) begat Dior. Dior (Elf, Maia, Man) and Nimloth (Elf) begat Elwing. Elwing (EMM) and Earendil (EM) begat Elros and Elrond (the Peredhil/Half-elven). And on it goes and enough of the “begats”! You get the idea?
So it seems, as NoWiz theorized, a Man and an Elf COULD bear children. Which brings us full circle as to why Arwen had to make a choice – Man or Elf. Well, it’s just in the rules, eh? Tolkien’s rules!! (that she had to choose before Elrond left M.E.). We have to bear in mind that if she chose to be of Elven-kind what White Ship would she take after Aragorn’s death? I guess she could have hitched a ride with Legolas and Gimli.?! 
Also, on a more serious note, I believe she chose Man-kind because of her love for Aragorn, and whatever happens to Mankind after death she was willing to accept.
Now if it’s D&D anything goes, and it’s up to the old Dungeon-master. 
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 19 2015, 6:49pm
Post #12 of 64
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Yes, "different races = no children" doesn't work, according to the examples we see.
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Neither Tuor nor Idril changed their race before having Earendil. And Earendil and Elwing didn't choose their races until AFTER they had their 2 sons.
Then there's the story of Dol Amroth, where an Elf had a child with a mortal and remained an Elf, going West to leave it behind. Tolkien considered these races capable of interbreeding without changing anything first.
At the same time, I can agree with the OP that the choice imposed on Arwen seems a little arbitrary. It's that discussion of: "Why are the rules like that?" Answer: "Because they are that way, not that they have to make sense to everyone, they're just the rules."
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jan 19 2015, 7:23pm
Post #13 of 64
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The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 19 2015, 7:38pm
Post #14 of 64
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JRRT does write that Elves and Man are biologically one race, #153
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"I suppose that actually the chief difficulties I have involved myself in are scientific and biological - which worry me just was much as the theological and metaphysical...Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring - even as a rare event: there are 2 cases only in my legends of such unions, and they are merged in the descendants of Earendil."
As far as the impact of the biological debate. 153 continues:
"But I should actually answer: I do not care. This is a biological dictum in my imaginary world."
So I see here the more metaphysical and spiritual are at play in Arwen's choice (as NoWiz states upthread), versus more real-world dictums.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 19 2015, 7:41pm)
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jan 19 2015, 8:01pm
Post #15 of 64
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About Arwen's death is her sacrifice. That was the main point of her giving up her immortality to marry Aragorn.
I do agree the rules seem arbitrary, though, as there didn't see to be any rules to stop Tuor or Beren. However, Tuor became mortal whereas Beren stayed mortal and Luthien also became mortal.
The latter decision seems to be because Beren would not forsake Men. This is similar to Elros' choice. Otherwise, there seems to be arbitrary stand for Tuor-Idril and Beren-Luthien.
Also, we had a discussion I think somewhere back on Elf-Man unions where it seems that it is always a Man and She-Elf. Not a male Elf and Woman. It seems odd that all of these unions were Elf maidens and Men.
There is the case of Aegnor and Andreth, but this marriage was prohibited because the Eldar didn't allow weddings during time of war. I don't recall if there is anything that explicitly says they can't marry in times of peace. Nevertheless, given what we know of Elf-Man unions, it is generally a Man and Elf maiden, not an Elf man and Woman.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 19 2015, 8:33pm
Post #16 of 64
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Er, ah. . . Elrond chose...to be of Elven-kind, married Celebrian, (an Elven lady), and they had three children. (Hey, aside: that’s another 3 for our 3 thread).
So there’s no mixing of races here.
You're gonna want to kick yourself for this, but you forget that with no mixing of Men and Elves, Elrond and Elros would not have existed.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 19 2015, 9:57pm
Post #18 of 64
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My post #11 said there was no mixing of races between Elrond and Celebrian as Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind. (You probably misread, or I wasn’t clear.)
I then listed a half dozen mixing of races: Men, Elves, and Maiar (which included Elwing and Earendil who begat Elrond and Elros).
Why would I want to kick myself??
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Terazed
Bree
Jan 20 2015, 1:33am
Post #19 of 64
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Yes she has to die, Brunhild and Sigurd
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I can think of a few reasons why she has to die. The main one is based on mythology and the various versions of the story of Brunhild and Sigurd. In several versions Brunhild, a valkyrie (chooser of the slain), is supposed to choose between two kings to take to Valhalla. She knows that Odin prefers one king to live but chooses the other instead. Odin as a punishment turns her into a mortal and puts her to sleep on a rock on a mountain surrounded by a ring of flames. The hero that can brave the flames can waken her and will marry her. That turns out to be Sigurd the dragon slayer and the well known owner of the sword that was broken. After a bunch of twists and turns Sigurd is killed and she throws herself on his funeral pyre so they can both go to hel together.
This story was transformed by Wagner and turned it into the center point of his story of the destruction of the cursed ring. (It is the closest thing you are going to find to Tolkien's ring in the literature by the way right down to the use of the term Lord of the Ring i.e "the lord of the ring shall be the slave of the ring"). The details would take too long to go into and are not all that relevant since Tolkien went back to primary sources anyway but some things do bleed through such as immortality leads to lovelessness and an immortal woman would sacrifice immortality in favor of love. In brief, in his version the immortal gods have mostly forgotten love. Wotan (Odin) decided long ago that to bring order to the world he needed to bring the world under the rule of laws and contracts. While he appreciates love it has to take second place to the law. Unfortunately over the centuries this leads him into a trap. In order to enforce the law he needs to have power and he finds himself stuck in an escalating series of bad contracts to maintain his power and keep the world ordered. It culminates in him being forced into a contract to steel the cursed ring from Albrich, the Lord of the Ring, and use it as payment to the giant Fafner to rescue the goddess of love Freia who also tends the golden apples that keeps the gods immortal. Fafner turns himself into a dragon and sits on the ring under a mountain. Wotan realizes that eventually Albrich will get the ring back and turn the world to evil unless it is destroyed but because of his contract neither he or the gods can be involved. The details get way to complicated from here so I will move to broad outlines. Wotan's daughter Brunnhilde become aware of the power of love after a hero that she is sent to summon to Valhalla rejects the offer of immortality so that he can die with the woman he loves. She defies her father's wishes because she loves him and can not bear to see him destroying himself by his contracts. He is forced by his laws to take away her immortality and put her to sleep on the rock as above. She tells him that she still loves him and as a free woman and mortal she will still take on the responsibility of destroying the ring even though it is a suicide mission. This breaks his heart and leads him on a path of renouncing his power and departing the world. Brunnhilde is woken by Siefried who has killed the dragon and taken the ring but has no idea what to do with it. At this point Brunnhilde's almost no memory of her immortal life. She falls in love with Siegfried and marries him. At the end of the cycle Siegfried has been murdered by Albrich's son and she is the only person between the ring and utter disaster for the world. She realizes that by taking the cursed ring as her own and making a love sacrifice by riding into Siegfried's funeral pyre she can cleanse the ring of it's curse and destroy it. The ring is destroyed, the old gods depart the world in a fiery immolation, and a new era of the world begins.
Again the details are unimportant but Wagner did introduce into the Northern mythos the entirely missing concept of love. He also introduced into it the concept that immortality leads to lovelessness and therefor the story of an immortal woman sacrificing immortality for love becomes extremely important.
It is a lot more complicated then that but it is the best I can manage at reducing several books worth of material into a few paragraphs.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 20 2015, 1:36am
Post #20 of 64
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My post #11 said there was no mixing of races between Elrond and Celebrian as Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind. (You probably misread, or I wasn’t clear.) I then listed a half dozen mixing of races: Men, Elves, and Maiar (which included Elwing and Earendil who begat Elrond and Elros). Why would I want to kick myself??
The parents of Elrond and Elros were Earendil (Adan Man) and Elwing (Princess of Doriath). Elwing herself was the granddaughter of Beren and Luthien. My point was that the two brothers were the result of mixed marriage between Elves and Men.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 20 2015, 1:39am)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 20 2015, 3:21am
Post #21 of 64
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What part of this is difficult for you
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to understand??
I then listed a half dozen mixing of races: Men, Elves, and Maiar (which included Elwing and Earendil who begat Elrond and Elros).
But yea – could a Man and an Elf have children? It seems so, yes:
Thingol (Elf) and Melian (Maia) begat Luthien. Luthien (Elf/Maia) and Beren (Man) begat Dior. Dior (Elf, Maia, Man) and Nimloth (Elf) begat Elwing. Elwing (EMM) and Earendil (EM) begat Elros and Elrond (the Peredhil/Half-elven). And on it goes and enough of the “begats”! You get the idea?
The parents of Elrond and Elros were Earendil (Adan Man) and Elwing (Princess of Doriath). Elwing herself was the granddaughter of Beren and Luthien. My point was that the two brothers were the result of mixed marriage between Elves and Men.
I’m not sure if you’re trying to insult my intelligence, having a bit of jolly, but I listed exactly what you have just said – there WERE mixed unions.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 20 2015, 3:49am
Post #22 of 64
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You just can't take Boromir anywhere.
For what it's worth, this is my favourite DM of the Rings strip: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=737
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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PhantomS
Rohan
Jan 20 2015, 7:13am
Post #23 of 64
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Aragorn himself begged Arwen to go as he was ready to die, but she said that no ship would carry her; no doubt Cirdan's mariners would recognize her and refuse her passage. She also tells Frodo that she will not be making that journey, and hints that he might.
Legolas sails not long after Aragorn dies; for an Elf length of time is irrelevant, although the text strongly implies that he leaves as soon as he can, since it was only the love of Aragorn (and Gimli, perhaps) that he tarried in Middle Earth after his experience with the seagulls. He is also an Elf without any modifications or magic conditions, so there is no question of his sailing. Arwen is loaded with prophecy and choices made, she could never possibly sail to the West.
Arwen and her brothers are part of the Children of Luthien, of whom she is the last to make a choice between Elf and Man. It started with Beren and Luthien (who died mortal) , and their descendants have been Elf, Man and even part-Maia. One supposes that this choice of Arwen seals the fate of the Children of Luthien, with no more half-bloods. She has in fact taken the choice of Elros, which will change her into a human being, albeit one with longer life than normal.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 20 2015, 2:33pm
Post #24 of 64
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I did understand the point you were making...
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...but not in my original reply. I was too focused on the top of your previous post. Also, I did not go back to re-read that post when responding to the later one. Instead, I thought that you were missing my own point.
Sorry about the confusion. I should read more carefully when I am short of sleep!
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 20 2015, 2:37pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 20 2015, 3:07pm
Post #25 of 64
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You were responsible for the following statement:
To twist your question – what if she chose to be of Elven-kind like her father and marry Aragorn? Uh, different races – no children?
That did inform my previous posts, even though your other posts make it clear that you do understand that Elves and Men could have children together. Arithmancer was similarly confused by that post and you didn't seem to understand that confusion. That is what I was keying off from.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 20 2015, 3:10pm)
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