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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 18 2015, 2:50pm
Post #1 of 55
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Durin's Day - An Astronomical Error?
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"Then what is Durin's Day?" asked Elrond.
"The first day of the dwarves' New Year," said Thorin, "is as all should know the first day of the last moon of Autumn on the threshold of Winter. We still call it Durin's Day when the last moon of Autumn and the sun are in the sky together."
This question is for someone with better astronomical knowledge than I possess, but should not the moon be full on Durin's Day? Peter Jackson used a cresent moon.
On the other hand, it is no wonder that the dwarves had trouble determining when to expect a Durin's Day. They needed to use both a lunar calendar and a solar calendar to make the calculations.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by dernwyn on Jan 18 2015, 7:23pm)
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Jan 18 2015, 2:54pm
Post #2 of 55
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Where does it say in that quote
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That it is a full moon? It just says the last moon of autumn which can be any phase.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 18 2015, 2:56pm
Post #3 of 55
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That is why the question requires some expertise.
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That it is a full moon? It just says the last moon of autumn which can be any phase.
I would expect that the phrasing implies a full moon. That is why the question is aimed at someone with some expertise on the subject.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Jan 18 2015, 3:09pm
Post #4 of 55
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I know little about Tolkien's mythology
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But the last moon of autumn to me would mean the moon in the sky on the last day of the season. The phase of the moon is different on that day every year.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 18 2015, 3:22pm
Post #5 of 55
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It might have been a new moon (according to Tolkien)
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From "On the Doorstep":
If [BIlbo] lifted his head he could see a glimpse of the distant forest. As the sun turned west there was a gleam of yellow upon its far roof, as if the light caught the last pale leaves. Soon he saw the orange ball of the sun sinking towards the level of his eyes. He went to the opening and there pale and faint was a thin new moon above the rim of Earth.
Of course a new moon would not have played well cinematically as Jackson envisioned the scene.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Jan 18 2015, 3:42pm
Post #6 of 55
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Doesnt that mean a crescent is starting to form? Otherwise why would it be described as thin?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 18 2015, 3:48pm
Post #7 of 55
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...it could have been the beginning of the New Moon, with a thin slice of the moon still visible. Either way, it doesn't match with what was depicted in TH:DoS.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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SafeUnderHill
Rohan
Jan 18 2015, 4:04pm
Post #8 of 55
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Either a crescent that is disappearing or that is forming.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jan 18 2015, 6:42pm
Post #9 of 55
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For it to be A, A a, FULL Moon...?
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The Sun would need to be in
Complete Opposition...
SSOoo.. Bilbo would have had to wait 12 hours
@ the Hidden Door, after OL' SOL had set.
ONLY then
COULD he see the Moonlight...of a FULL Moon.
What was COOL?
Thorin forgot the MOST Important line..
"when the Thrush knocks.."
That whole scene was one the Most STELLAR Scenes
in All 6 Movies.
Bilbo had the presence of Mind to look for the
Tiny Thrush knocking on the Door, getting his
Tiny meal of Snail.
Gets to..Bombyzz HEART every time,
that even? a Tiny
Birdy could play a
BIG Role?
In the World Events in the
Vast Landscapes of MiddeEARTH..
Bomz
Sorry for being
SSOooo.
Sentimental..for even the
Smallest thingiezz
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jan 18 2015, 6:48pm)
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leonmuse
Rivendell
Jan 18 2015, 6:56pm
Post #10 of 55
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I don't know whether it's an error or not... But...
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It is an "astroNOMical" thing, not "astroLOGical" :P
I'm not trying to sound rude here, just to point out a very common mistake that always bugs me.
The Moon can never be full, being at the sky at the same time as the Sun.
Cheers from Saruman
 
__________________________________________________________
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
But, sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."
(This post was edited by leonmuse on Jan 18 2015, 6:58pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 18 2015, 7:00pm
Post #11 of 55
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Yes. I meant 'astronomical'. Stupid error on my part! I should have caught that myself.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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leonmuse
Rivendell
Jan 18 2015, 7:03pm
Post #12 of 55
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Otaku!
everyone makes mistakes, all the time.
It's just that I despise Astrology so much that I can't bear to see it compared to or mistaken by Astronomy.
I love Astronomy, my second favorite author, bested by Tolkien only, is Carl Sagan, author of Cosmos.
Xrs from Saru
__________________________________________________________
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
But, sad or merry, I must leave it now. Farewell."
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jan 18 2015, 7:11pm
Post #13 of 55
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As an Aquarius, Double Gemini W/ a Full Moon
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as My Ascendant? { Onnn..My Horizon line }
Bom likes the
"Silly-ness of that
SSOoo..Called
Science
"Astronomy?"
The MiddleEARTH Maps are....Flat..
Jus' kidding of course
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jan 18 2015, 7:13pm)
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jan 18 2015, 7:45pm
Post #14 of 55
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I think Tolkien would have known enough astronomy to realise ...
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that you cannot get a full Moon during the day. The astronomics of a full Moon is such that it will always rise after sunset. If you have a full Moon, the Sun must be at 180deg to the Moon - that is the Sun is directly opposite to the Moon. In order for the Moon to be visible it must be above the horizon. Therefore, the Sun has to be below the horizon. A full Moon and the Sun cannot be in the sky together.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 18 2015, 7:48pm
Post #15 of 55
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jan 18 2015, 7:54pm
Post #16 of 55
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Either way, it doesn't match with what was depicted in TH:DoS.
The phase depicted in DOS is a waxing crescent. That's the next phase along from a young Moon (or thin new Moon).
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jan 18 2015, 8:25pm
Post #17 of 55
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I thought if the moon is on the exact opposite side to the sun then it's a new moon, because the Earth is casting its shadow directly over the moon.
Which I guess would mean it would be full when the two are in the sky together? I'm not certain, though.
*edit* Okay, you're right. A Google has told me what I was thinking of is an eclipse, which is different to the moon phases.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jan 18 2015, 8:28pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 18 2015, 11:58pm
Post #19 of 55
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"the first day of the last moon of Autumn"
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Yeah, that might be the last sliver of the waning moon. The Dwarven Scholar seems to be in agreement that the dwarves' New Year is keyed to the New Moon:
...the Dwarven New Year starts on Durin’s Day, which is the day that begins the last cycle of the Moon. When on this day both the Sun and Moon may be seen in the sky together. That places Durin’s Day, anytime between about Oct. 7 and Nov. 6, on the last day before the astronomical new moon as the moon sets just before the sun.
The Scholar does neglect to note that Durin's Day is not an annual event, but his other posts show that he aware of that fact. That also means that my previous calculation for the Dwarven New Year of 2014 (present day) was off by half-a-month. It should have fallen on October 22. If I have it right, in 2015 it will fall on October 11.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 19 2015, 12:13am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jan 19 2015, 12:56am
Post #20 of 55
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The full moon is opposite the sun.
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That is why it's full: that the sun shines directly on it. The full moon rises exactly at sunset.
For it to be Durin's day:
1) "first day of the last moon of Autumn"
a) that means it's a new moon (the first day of this lunar cycle)
b) the "last moon of Autumn" means it's the last new moon before Dec. 21, which is the winter solstice and the first day of winter.
2) "when the last moon of Autumn and the sun are in the sky together"
a) a new moon is very near the sun (which is why we can't see but a sliver of it, because the illuminated side is the side toward the sun and away from us).
b) the moon and sun are in the sky together means the moon cannot be full, because the night of the full moon the moon rises at sunset, and for the next half of the cycle the moon is visible at night, not in the daytime.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jan 19 2015, 12:57am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jan 19 2015, 1:04am
Post #21 of 55
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What's your definition of Autumn?
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Your dates seem very early. Technically, Autumn is between Sept. 21 (autumnal equinox = end of Summer) and Dec. 21 (winter solstice = beginning of winter).
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jan 19 2015, 1:30am
Post #22 of 55
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I think it means the last lunar cycle.
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The word "moon" is often used to mean lunar cycle as well as the celestial body itself, as in "many moons ago..." meaning many months.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jan 19 2015, 1:32am)
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jan 19 2015, 1:31am
Post #23 of 55
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Maybe things work differently in Middle Earth...
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Remember, the Sun is (apparently) pulled by Tilion, who is the moon god, based on the Silmarillion. Maybe he was chasing Arien and got off course again:)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 19 2015, 2:43am
Post #24 of 55
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Your dates seem very early. Technically, Autumn is between Sept. 21 (autumnal equinox = end of Summer) and Dec. 21 (winter solstice = beginning of winter).
The Hobbits, the Elves of Rivendell and the Men of Gondor observe the middle of the seasons on (or near) the solstices and equinoxes. The Dwarves seem to do the same. That makes our September 21 (more-or-less) mid-autumn. Based on this, Winter starts on or around November 9
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 19 2015, 2:46am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 19 2015, 2:53am
Post #25 of 55
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Even Tolkien apparently went back-and-forth on what constituted the history of Middle-earth and what was myth even within his legendarium. Still, Middle-earth was meant to be a mythic version of our own world. So, the solar year is our solar year. The phases of the moon our our phases of the moon. Shire Reckoning even included a Leap Year.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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