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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 12:22pm
Post #26 of 52
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Well, I suppose if I'm honest my first reason is....
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...that I was expecting it and had imagined how it might be. Always fatal, I know!
The TE does cover some of the important elements a funeral scene might have supplied. Respect from the survivors of Thorin's company as they kneel round him, and from the people of Laketown. A hint of how Thorin will be remembered in Balin's parting words to Bilbo. The audience can quietly participate in those things. So I think the TE does work, as far as it goes.
What it misses, I think, is first and foremost a moment that brings the whole of Thorin's company and Gandalf together one last time, with all arguments behind them. A bookend to Bag End, if you like. A scene that reunited Thorin, Fili and Kili with the surviving dwarves, Bilbo and Gandalf; they set out on the quest together, this is where it ends.
Second is some kind of resolution that ties in the Elvenking. As it stands in the TE, they achieved a resolution of the storyline they created for Thranduil, Legolas and Tauriel. They showed the dwarves and the Lake people salute Thorin, but not the elves. There is nothing in the TE to heal the stand-off between Thranduil and Thorin beyond the fact that Thranduil's elves joined the battle on the same side. There's nothing personal there and no obvious reconciliation. The funeral scene in the book may be very short but people remember it and closes the story between the two kings. A funeral scene in the film would have been the perfect opportunity to do the same. Could be with the giving of Orcrist - which they surely wouldn't leave in Azog's body. Not when it was Turgon's sword (and Thranduil almost IS Turgon!). Could be with the Arkenstone too, or just with Thranduil's presence at the funeral, or with something he says, but I would like a scene in the film to close that relationship. I hesitate to mention this because even if they have filmed a funeral scene and do include it in the EE I'm not sure that they will include Thranduil, but I hope they will.
That's what I'd hope for from a funeral scene. Thorin's company reunited and a posthumous reconciliation between Thranduil and Thorin.
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Macfeast
Rohan
Jan 17 2015, 12:39pm
Post #27 of 52
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At least this would only qualify as one "ending".
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One additional "ending", but one that potentially could have tied up a great deal of plot-threads otherwise left hanging; No need to give each plot-thread its own separate, fade-to-black ending, when they can all be streamlined into the one ending. I've mentioned in the past, that this could also be done entirely without dialogue, meaning that you could have it be a somber and poignant affair, in keeping with the already established sorrowful theme of the ending, without dialogue that might otherwise come across as more upbeat and promising.
So yeah, my answer is "closure". The funeral would have been a great way to provide closure, even beyond Thorin, Fíli, and Kíli, and finish up all these plot-threads that the writers so very deliberately started and gave increased importance. The Arkenstone, the gold, the relationship between elves, men, and dwarves, the kingship of Erebor... all of these were important plot-threads throughout the trilogy. To borrow a turn of phrase from Thranduil; They started this. They will have to forgive me, if I wanted to see it finished.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jan 17 2015, 12:40pm)
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Thrain II
Lorien
Jan 17 2015, 1:31pm
Post #28 of 52
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you are right about Orcrist, it could have been taken from Azog's body, since Thranduil was on Ravenhill at the end, but according to that picture we saw of the funeral he wasn't there, so I guess that wasn't filmed 
As for Azog ravens would be far too good for him, I wish he and his spawn were chopped to pieces by Beorn, but oh well.
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Jan 17 2015, 3:24pm
Post #29 of 52
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On the scene at the end. That scene where the Laketown men remove their hats and the horns blow is part of the funeral scene. I will very much look forward to seeing it in the EE.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you, Gandalf the Grey
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 17 2015, 4:28pm
Post #30 of 52
(391 views)
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More than anything else, I'd like to see this, with Thranduil laying the sword on/near Thorin (along with the resolution of the Arkenstone and Elven gems, which could be equally simply resolved in this one scene). It could fix so many issues just in one hit. Plus, of course, I need to see considerably more Beorn – and certainly not just in fighting scenes, of which there are sufficient already, I think (they tend to get repetitive after a while).
That's what I'd hope for from a funeral scene. Thorin's company reunited and a posthumous reconciliation between Thranduil and Thorin.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jan 17 2015, 4:41pm
Post #31 of 52
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I just remembered a rumour I heard concerning Beorn
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Before the film came out I had a lot of people claiming all kinds of things, some turned out to be very accurate most were made up nonsense.
Anyway I don't remember if this source was legitimate, but I do remember one person claiming that after hearing about Thorin killing Azog, Beorn shows new respect for dwarves.
I remember pondering how vague that description was, how would Beorn show his new found respect?
In the image of Thorin's funeral Beorn is definitely there, so maybe something will be shown during this scene.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 5:04pm
Post #32 of 52
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Perhaps Beorn carries Thorin from the ice in the EE?
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with the dwarves following. Or Fili or Kili. Beorn is fierce, I don't think this is something he would normally do outside of his animals (and not trying to be funny, Beorn at least as I understand the character is not typically one who deals with other races). Re "I don't like dwarves...."
And before BOFA, I thought Beorn would be carrying Thorin from the battlefield, tho re the scale issue I think that would take a lot of work to not have the image look false, but moving as I imagined it. Which didn't happen - the way I thought it would, anyway.
(For me, probably just as well, re losing it every time over Thorin and Bilbo at the end.)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 5:10pm
Post #33 of 52
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Agree ravens are too good for Azog
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Tho I also thought, symbolically, ravens eating Azog had the tiniest bit of poetic justice. I can't think of anything to do to Azog that is bad enough.
Well, I can, re one thing the ancient Celts used to do to enemies, but that's probably not appropriate re Tolkien and TORn.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 5:13pm
Post #34 of 52
(383 views)
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Maybe. Something of the sort would be nice.
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with the dwarves following. Or Fili or Kili. Beorn is fierce, I don't think this is something he would normally do outside of his animals (and not trying to be funny, Beorn at least as I understand the character is not typically one who deals with other races). Re "I don't like dwarves...." And before BOFA, I thought Beorn would be carrying Thorin from the battlefield, tho re the scale issue I think that would take a lot of work to not have the image look false, but moving as I imagined it. Which didn't happen - the way I thought it would, anyway. (For me, probably just as well, re losing it every time over Thorin and Bilbo at the end. )
I miss terribly the iconic bit about Beorn stooping to bear ( ) away a wounded Thorin. I was really, really hoping to see that and am disappointed we didn't. In my own inner film, I was picturing Thorin, Fili and Kili pinned down facing Azog (and footsoldiers). I could see Bolg arriving with his bodyguard, and Tauriel and Legolas engaging Bolg in the back of events, unseen by the Dwarves. Thorin is wounded in the fray and falls, unconscious... carried away silently by Beorn. And I could see the scenes of Fili and Kili's deaths happening in Thorin's regained memory as he regains consciousness, surrounded by the Company and Bilbo. Where they would be more singular, and special, and show that they fell protecting the King.
They still could have shown Kili being mourned by Tauriel still. I feel like it could have worked. Those separated, cat-and-mouse individual battles don't feel quite right to me.
So yes, I would love to see some sort of involvement from Beorn.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 5:30pm
Post #35 of 52
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Tho perhaps it's one of those things where re Thror to Thrain to Thorin and Dis "by chance the blood runs true" e.g. this family is more or less, by chance, almost a "throwback" to Durin himself? Also with Dain already being Lord of the Iron Hills dwarves, he needed to be in a position to combine Erebor with his territory.
But maybe those more familiar with Tolkien will weigh in. Could be that just having Dain left, if the other Durins were gone, is just too perilous and too few of a royal line?
On a side note, for the fans of this Thorin - the name Thorin is not the first time it was used, but it made me feel the tiniest bit better than Dain either has, or will have, a son named Thorin:
And personally, since I am a fan of Thorin's, I was glad to see the obvious affection between Dain and Thorin, and that Dain had come so quickly to Thorin's aid as depicted in the film. Because it's hard on some of us Thorin fans, even thinking of the coronation *sigh*.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 5:40pm
Post #36 of 52
(374 views)
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What you imagine is more canon, than we got!
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From a TECHNICAL and narrative standpoint I can see why PJ took the approach he did at least re Thorin - to some degree he had to have Thorin separated from the army as a whole, and the princes, otherwise you have the problem of trying to have focused one-on-one fights with all these others milling around.
I can't complain too much as for me Thorin's end duel is so mind-blowing and gritty and brutal, but they still could have worked in the Fili/Kili canon story to some degree.
Guess we are going to have to wait for some commentary re a new Appendices, because surely how the fights were choreographed was a subject of huge discussion by PJ & co. - how close to keep to canon, or not - and fans would like to know why certain changes were made, and why it was felt it was important to make those changes.
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jan 17 2015, 5:56pm
Post #37 of 52
(356 views)
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It would provide closure to many of the storylines that have been built up over the course of almost nine hours of screentime while also simultaneously being a beautiful scene in and of itself, something translated directly from the books, and something that is more important to the story being told than Tauriel realizing love is real and it can hurt or Legolas finding out that his mom loved him.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 6:35pm
Post #39 of 52
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How could they NOT include Thranduil in the funeral scene!!!!!??? It's the book scene!
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Well, OK, everyone stop looking at me  .
Seriously tho - with Thorin and Thranduil having had a filmed clash - well two of them, as we have Thorin and Thranduil threatening each other in BOFA (yeah! I got my Thorin bow scene, kind of, from the book )....
And "one king to another" - Dain is there, yes, but it just feels RIGHT to me, that a being who is so old, whose story has been intertwined with the Durins since AUJ - then there is the big issue of the heirlooms of the elves -
IMO there would be no reason to NOT have Thranduil there. 
(What has been commented on in an essay I read tho - and am sure there are others - is what are Thranduil and his company of elves doing after Legolas and Tauriel leave - does he go back to the fight? Wait things out? And so on. But that is another thread! )
PS. Totally OT, but I thought the closeup of Thorin madly smiling over the necklace, and the slow motion when he throws the necklace contemptuously into the box and the gems scatter, was incredibly effective as a filmed scene, bringing this heirloom so close to the attention of the audience, and now it's in the hands of someone who feels so much bile and isn't very noble, at this point, or sane. IMO when PJ is at his best, it's stunning - even the sounds used there sound ominous.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 17 2015, 7:58pm
Post #41 of 52
(311 views)
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How could they NOT include Thranduil in the funeral scene!!!!!??? It's the book scene!
Legolas returns Orcrist to Thorin in the film so there is no longer a need to have Thranduil present at the funeral for the same purpose. However, I agree that he should be there if only to honor the valour of Thorin and the others. Of course, in the book Bilbo and Gandalf start out their return journey in the company of Beorn, the Elvenking and his folk. And then spend the winter with Beorn.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 17 2015, 7:59pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 9:06pm
Post #42 of 52
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I don't know the GOG reference well enough
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But re the Celts, it involves a tree, probably a sharp dagger, and probably lack of clothing re said object of debasement. It's more CONTEMPTUOUS than the run-of-the-mill head on the castle wall thing. Less MANLY, as it were. Er. Evidently a strong statement to one's enemies.
Not that Azog wore much anyway. But it's definitely not family friendly.
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 9:24pm
Post #43 of 52
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But someone physically has to retrieve Orcrist
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I can see a dwarf like Dwalin doing so. But Legolas has evidently left the scene. I guess I could see a scene where Beorn comes for Thorin, and the dwarves follow with Dwalin having pulled the sword free.
Tho perhaps it would be more graceful if Legolas had left, and then walks across the ice to pull the sword from Azog, and follows Thorin and the others. Unless Thranduil does the same, but I would imagine he would stay with Tauriel.
E.g. Somehow the sword has to be brought back to Thorin....not to belabor the point, because this seems to me like something that wouldn't be filmed, probably. And I can see why no-one would bother to do so.
But I still hope Thranduil is there at the funeral, re it being symbolic that the Elven King giving Thorin that respect, in front of dwarf witnesses as it were, in the film emphasizing that the hostilities are truly done between these elves and the Erebor dwarves and men, however they began.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jan 17 2015, 9:37pm
Post #44 of 52
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Agree that a funeral scene is definitely needed for the EE...
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..as are a few more things. I thought the Bo5A TE was ok but nothing special. I'm hoping that the EE raises it a few bars for me like the DoS EE did.
Anyway, I just have to nitpick your post - Glamdring was Turgon's sword, not Orcrist.
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FernysApple
Bree
Jan 17 2015, 10:29pm
Post #46 of 52
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of cutting the Grey Havens from LOTR, it denies people closure, and its bad editing.
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Dwarewien
Rohan
Jan 17 2015, 11:09pm
Post #47 of 52
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since I would prefer they left it out entirely. I'm dreading this scene as much as you, since what happened in the TE was bad enough, watching the funeral scene will make me cry even worse. And since Thorin's not really dead (at least not in my mind he's not, he'll never be, since I won't allow it), I don't need closure, not now, not ever. Even though I may buy the Extended Edition to go with all the others, I don't think I'll be watching it very much, since it will be too depressing. There's a good chance I'll be watching the TE more (no matter how painful it is, since Thorin's death makes me cry buckets every time I see BoFA, just like the end of AUJ, but much more intense). Perhaps you should read more romantic fan fics with alternate endings to get your mind off the bad stuff, since that's how I get by (sorry to quote Capt. Jack from DMC, but it really applies here: Just close your eyes and pretend it's a bad dream. That's how I get by). And I'm sure there's more Thorin fans that are dreading this scene as much as we are, maybe they just don't like to talk about it, since they find it too depressing. I can't say I blame them.
"Will you follow me... one last time?"
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jan 17 2015, 11:09pm
Post #48 of 52
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The way the film plays out now in the theatrical cut, once Kili reacts to his brother's lifeless body hitting the ground, Fili is never mentioned again. He dies a pretty horrible death, but the film itself and as a result the characters in it don't really seem to care at all. A funeral scene for the Durins would provide closure for all of them, but I think it is especially needed for Fili.
Also, while it is an absolutely beautiful scene, the quick shot of the dwarves kneeling around Thorin's body was not enough closure for Thorin either. PJ himself stated that The Hobbit is obviously the story of Thorin Oakenshield's quest to reclaim Erebor. It is as if he himself forgot this at the end of the film and thought The Hobbit was obviously the story of what the Woodland Elves were up to before LOTR and how they made discoveries about love.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 17 2015, 11:45pm
Post #50 of 52
(244 views)
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....wrong sword!
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