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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Was anyone else surprised by the Angmar/Erebor link

Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 16 2015, 11:31pm

Post #1 of 14 (919 views)
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Was anyone else surprised by the Angmar/Erebor link Can't Post

Being drawn in BOFA? I hadn't expected that, myself.
Do we think the link between Angmar and targets such as Rivendell would have made sense to the general audience or would it simply have been background colour and a sense of threat? Would they link it to the Witch King mention in AUJ?


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jan 17 2015, 1:10am

Post #2 of 14 (534 views)
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Gunderbad/Erebor Not surprised [In reply to] Can't Post

From the very beginning of filming and when the films began to emerge Gunderbad was a point of cultural and racial significance.

You will recall in the DOS trailer Azog leaps over the wall of the Elven battlements. Subsequently PJ has said Fimbul was overlaid by Bolg in tracking the company.

Taking those to matters together and the rather clunky return of Azog to DG I believe there was a period of thinking when.

Azog would leave to raise the Gunderbad Army.

And Fimbul would track the company.

Bolg remained in DG and was bested by Galadriel when she came to rescue Gandalf.

Very shorty before DOS went to premier it changed to :-

Azog withdrawn from trailer placement recalled to DG confront Gandalf and lead a new DG army.

A new Lawrence Makoare Bolg now overlaid Fimbul and moved into an arc with Legolas at Laketown/Gunderbad leader/ and final show down with Legolas.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 17 2015, 1:12am)


Thrain II
Lorien


Jan 17 2015, 1:22am

Post #3 of 14 (482 views)
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I was [In reply to] Can't Post

surprised also. I don't think it would make sense to general audience, more as a sense of a threat as you said. I think because of the LOTR movies most if not all of the audience know that the Witch King is from/connected to Angmar.Smile

I personally don't see how claiming Erebor is gateway to reclaiming Angmar, since they are so far away from each other, but since that lady mentioned the Master of Lake-town is ''half way down the Anduin'' maybe they didn't care so much about geography this time, and wanted to use terms people are familiar with. Wink


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Jan 17 2015, 1:40am

Post #4 of 14 (488 views)
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I think PJ and co. were trying to connect TH to the larger legendarium [In reply to] Can't Post

We had mentions of Angmar and Rhudaur in the AUJ TE and the DOS EE to try to connect the dots for people with the Witch King/Nazgul/Morgul blade... And Gundabad is thrown in for good measure in BotFA.


But to be honest, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that Erebor is supposedly a key stronghold or base from which to attack such bastions of Free Peoples as Rivendell, Gondor, and Lothlorien. (Why not just strengthen Dol Guldur if you wanted to attack Lothlorien? Or the Woodland Realm?) I guess this "evil plan" could work, but it's pretty complicated. I think, frankly, that the idea was just to mention these places that general viewers would recognize from LOTR to let everyone know that the battle is Very Important and Much Is At Stake in the affairs of Middle-earth, and it's a good thing Gandalf had this idea and the Good Guys won (or at least, we think they did! Tongue).


So, in other words--yes, surprised and rather doubtful about the link!


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Name
Rohan


Jan 17 2015, 2:13am

Post #5 of 14 (495 views)
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RISE OF ANGMAR MOVIE *COUGH COUGH* [In reply to] Can't Post

 

How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?

"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"


Faleel
Rohan


Jan 17 2015, 4:07am

Post #6 of 14 (476 views)
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Angmar [In reply to] Can't Post

Angmar is mentioned in the early drafts of the appendices as a place Gandalf feared an attack toward/from.



(This post was edited by Faleel on Jan 17 2015, 4:19am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 17 2015, 8:54pm

Post #7 of 14 (319 views)
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I would assume the DG army was a feature all along. [In reply to] Can't Post

Is there anything pointing us towards the idea there was no army there at sine earlier stage of story boarding?


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 17 2015, 8:55pm

Post #8 of 14 (323 views)
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It's in the final version too! [In reply to] Can't Post

I meant in the film.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 17 2015, 9:01pm

Post #9 of 14 (322 views)
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Well it's Sauron's plan in the books [In reply to] Can't Post

Or at least Gandalf's perception of his plan - to prevent interference from good forces near Erebor with the dragon and to seek to reclaim Angmar. That seems very similar to persevere with the army once Smaug is defeated- or am I missing something?


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 17 2015, 9:04pm

Post #10 of 14 (311 views)
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I mention the plan points in the post above [In reply to] Can't Post

But on the Anduin line I just took that as exaggeration - like saying, "He is halfway to Timbuktu by now".


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Jan 18 2015, 4:19am

Post #11 of 14 (287 views)
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Bolg DG AZog "Up North" [In reply to] Can't Post

In the two film adaption Gandalf reaches the same place as he does at the end of DOS. Whereas the company have run into Bard.

Azog is not tracking the company Fimbul and the other chap who got beheaded is who offers the highly prophetic comments to Thranduil.

So in this arrangement Azog would have to come back to DG have a chat with Bolg sign off on the army with Sauron and march North. Why the dragon is alive and the company have not left Laketown yet.

More likely Fimbul reports from Laketown, thats why he was sent there, he sends a text "they have gone to the mountain" so what does Azog do return to DG. Just in time for the White Council to come in and do some sweeping and cleaning. Gandalfs release would come sooner in the two film strategy more like the book. Bolg is given a hiding by Galadriel Sauron and the nine relocate. Meanwhile Azog has gone north and raised an army in his home town echoing the taunt in the palantir from Sauron.

Bilbo and Smaug have their chat and Smaug flies off straight away 20 minutes saved because Thorin doesn't do his forges bit in the two film version. Obviously B of DG
comes before B & S in this version as in the book.

Lake town, Lake side Gandalf arrives everybody starts arguing and Azog appears from Gunderbad. It is important to remember when the two film filming was finished the BOFA had not been filmed so when they went two to three
and they started changing who did what when and in what order they would retro fit to allow us to see the rise of Sauron as PJ put it when they announced the three film split.

As the only extra Sauron bit that went into the three film split was the raising of the army and Azog being appointed CO those remarks make sense. The other thing that happened with the DG sub plot is PJ flew Antony Sher down to expand the Thrain narrative to stretch the DG sub plot to match the new point of finish. However for reasons of saving time earlier in the film he decided to leave it out.

What convinces me that Azog never returned to DG is that scene retained in the BOFA with old Bolg and Galadriel.

Once the DG sub plot is closed out you then go north for the narrative and stay there.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.

(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 18 2015, 4:33am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 18 2015, 10:39am

Post #12 of 14 (263 views)
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Whilst not impossible that is very speculative! [In reply to] Can't Post

If we are guessing, I would say it seemed to me that DG being linked to the main story was a tactic from the early interviews with the filmmakers so again, whilst we don't know, it would seem a more obvious army source.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jan 18 2015, 4:39pm

Post #13 of 14 (254 views)
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Whereas... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Gundabad is the textual army source. Which is why I would guess both were actually intended in the early going. It also more easily gets us to the magic number of 5.

I have no opinion as to which of three different Orcs was going to be where at which points in a 2 or 3 movie version of the tale, when. My personal preference is not to know how the sausages are made until after I have determined that they are to my liking. Wink



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Jan 18 2015, 10:22pm

Post #14 of 14 (260 views)
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Agreed and apologies. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was focussing on it seeming likely that DG would have been in, not that Gundabad would have been out.

 
 

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