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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jan 14 2015, 5:48pm
Post #1 of 27
(1601 views)
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Legolas During The Climax
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I’ve watched the film five times now. This last time I really focused on the climax of the film, as it is the part of the film where PJ loses me, and I consciously made an effort to watch it in the most unbiased manner that I could. I still think it was a huge mistake to feature Legolas so heavily during this part of the film. Enormous mistake, actually. That decision undercuts the entire Ravenhill sequence and ruins it for me.
There is a huge and violent battle happening off in the distance before the gates of Erebor, and many characters we have followed over the course of three films now are caught up in it. PJ makes the choice to let all of that fall away to the background and focus on what is happening on Ravenhill. It is a bold choice. This is the heart of the story, he is saying. This is where the drama lies. It almost works like gangbusters. It is almost a sequence for the ages. Had the focus of the scene remained on Thorin and his life or death battle with Azog I wholeheartedly believe it would be a sequence that rivals anything from the LOTR trilogy.
Every time the fight between Thorin and Azog heats up we cut away to Legolas fighting Bolg. I personally feel that everything about both Legolas and Bolg in this sequence is hot garbage, yet even if it were as compelling as Thorin battling Azog, it simply should not be being shown at this time. There are undoubtedly all sorts of interesting and dramatic things happening with all of the other characters we know at this very time, yet we are not shown any of this, because at this time that is not what is important to the narrative. Unfortunately, and for reasons I honestly and absolutely simply cannot comprehend in any way whatsoever, what is important to the narrative at this time is equal parts Legolas fighting Bolg and Thorin fighting Azog.
The two fights are given equal focus and attention. Someone with no knowledge of Tolkien’s writing or the prior two films who just sat down and watched TH:TBOTFA would assume from watching this scene that these two sets of characters were the main adversaries of the trilogy.
I do not understand PJ’s infatuation with the character of Legolas and his need to just shove him into scenes where he simply does not belong. The actual Battle of the Five Armies – the event that the entire film itself is named after – falls away from the narrative at this point. If PJ really felt the need to have the Legolas / Bolg storline play out in the manner that it did, it should have been handled quicker and resolved before the climactic Thorin and Azog battle. Continuously intercutting between the two fights and to the extent that they do was an extremely poor decision and it ruins the sequence.
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Dcole4
Rohan
Jan 14 2015, 5:55pm
Post #2 of 27
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I had access to an industry dvd screener of the film and edited the ravenhill sequence to exclude Legolas. It was actually very simple and the edits were very clean. My friend had no idea where I cut things. The only issue is that Thorin miraculously has Orcrist for the end battle, but I'm willing to accept that over 5 minutes of Legolas.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jan 14 2015, 8:18pm
Post #3 of 27
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Legolas was a fan-girl favorite in the days of LotR.
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People clapped and cheered when he did his stunts. I think PJ assumed that he needed a lot more Leggy-stunts to keep the fan-girls happy. From my POV, and that of a lot of other people, according to posts here and conversations elsewhere, that didn't work as well. It would have been more successful to let TH movies stand on their own.
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Azaghâl
Lorien
Jan 14 2015, 9:27pm
Post #4 of 27
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They should have let the hobbit be it's own thing. Having all these very obvious connections have been more of a burden than a blessing for PJ.
The whole framing with old bilbo didn't work for me. It was unnecessary to the plot and it didn't give the hobbit any chance to be it's own thing.
*Baruk khazâd! Khazâd ai-męnu!*
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jan 14 2015, 10:11pm
Post #5 of 27
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I agree with all of this. While I don't think Ravenhill was a bad setting per say - what and how things happened there wasn't good. Meddling in the elves there just ruined so much. And so much Legolas good god seriously??? I quite love him in LotR so I enjoyed the idea of him showing up in the Hobbit movies, but never this much. Even being the one to kill Bolg! It's like they completely lost all senses the last half of the movie and gave up.
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jan 14 2015, 10:34pm
Post #6 of 27
(850 views)
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Cutting Away During The Climactic Fight
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Apparently the filmmakers believed that the film did need such over-the-top Legolas action and a lot of it. That's not an idea I agree with, and that's fine, but I really don't understand cutting away from the climactic Thorin and Azog fight and doing so for such large periods of time. It really gives the two fights equal weight in the narrative. The fact that they are cutting away to show something that I think is silly and nonsensical is more just the salt on the wound. I don't think it's a good decision to cut away from that fight to show what anyone else is doing, not even Beorn, Dain or the dwarves from the company, and I think the film desperately needed more of those characters during the battle. The only exception I would make to that would be Bilbo, but he is knocked out for most of this time.
I feel the same way about cutting away from the dwarves' confrontation with Smaug during the climax of DoS - it kills the momentum of the sequence and takes attention away from where it should be. I have watched that sequence with the Legolas vs. Bolg smackdown removed and it honestly plays much better. It still contains too much silliness and it still undercuts the danger of Smaug in a huge way, but it doesn't seem to drag on for quite as long.
I realize that they wanted to tie these films into the LOTR trilogy, but I feel like that should have been a secondary goal. The first goal should always be to make the best movie you can. I have seen internet memes that take the posters for BOTFA and plaster Legolas all over them blocking out Bilbo and Thorin and Gandalf. While I think that is a bit mean-spirited I unfortunately agree entirely with the sentiment they are expressing when I watch the climax of the movie. Just as I am getting caught up in the emotion and tension and desperation of Thorin's battle for his life they cut away and show something far less important for minutes at a time.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jan 14 2015, 11:50pm
Post #7 of 27
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It may be worth considering it from the perspective of those who don't know the story.
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One thing that Legolas' victory does, I would think, is wrong-foot the general audience.
We have seen Fili and Kili die, which I think would be a shock and a lesser shock respectively. There is a very uneasy atmosphere at Ravenhill and I think that the audience may form a foreboding about our final heir of Durin.
Legolas' victory, however, may act to change up the expectations and hint the film is back on a traditional victorious-goodies tack, making the double cross of Thorin's death more shocking.
It's difficult to fake ignorance in an emotional sense, so I can't be sure, but I seem to recall several posters' reviews mentioning substantial shock at Thorin's demise. It's possible that managing the emotional expectations as above plays a role in that.
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jan 15 2015, 1:00am
Post #9 of 27
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That is a very interesting idea...
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...and something I hadn't considered before you brought it up. I still think it is a mistake to cut away from Thorin and Azog's battle though. The Legolas and Bolg fight should be over and done with before Thorin and Azog have their final showdown, and it should not take as long.
Legolas' involvement in the Ravenhill sequence would work for me if he was kept to the periphery - he can still pick off a few orcs from that tower and help Thorin out, but the way he gets up to that tower was absurd and should have been left on the cutting room floor. I don't think silliness like that works very well meshed up with the seriosuness of Azog The Defiler murdering the dwarves out of hatred and a desire to end a bloodline.
The fact that Legolas is the one to kill Bolg doesn't really matter to me in that I don't find the Bolg they ultimately went with at all interesting or compelling or even scary, and the film makes such a non-issue out of his second army, that I think Legolas' dispatching him in a quick and brutal manner would work infinitely better on all fronts.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jan 15 2015, 11:05am
Post #10 of 27
(695 views)
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People clapped and cheered when he did his stunts. I think PJ assumed that he needed a lot more Leggy-stunts to keep the fan-girls happy. From my POV, and that of a lot of other people, according to posts here and conversations elsewhere, that didn't work as well. It would have been more successful to let TH movies stand on their own.
Agreed.
Also reading the interview with PJ abour having no regrets, it was really bewildering to me how it became a "thing" for the filmmakers to think about how to top Legolas with each movie. And to think that a majority of people wanted that. What nonsense.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 15 2015, 12:20pm
Post #11 of 27
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Quite a few posters on this thread are common to others so I will not bore them with my view. However what is interesting is that the root cause of the concern expressed is this is another example of the effect of working with multiple (and additional) plot lines takes the focus from the core narrative.
There was a very interesting and highly symbolic way of ending Legolas's physical arc when Thranduil caves in to his thoughts of war. Legolas could show his leadership qualities and rally his people along with Bard and Dain in a final stand (suggested in dialogue but not shown) showing that the world view Legolas of the LOTR had finally emerged after being caught between Thranduil and Tauriel. The resolution to his relationship with Thranduil would be the same but the entire Bolg/Legolas narrative would be absent.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 15 2015, 12:23pm
Post #12 of 27
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In view of your comments its worth remembering Bolg replaced Fimbul for this very moment to give legolas some thing to do at the topic of the arc in the film.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Imladris18
Lorien
Jan 15 2015, 2:05pm
Post #13 of 27
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I would've actually preferred this route as well. That would've kept Bolg open at Ravenhill for a Beorn entrance.
Gah, now I'm miffed this wasn't how it played out.
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mangotree
The Shire
Jan 15 2015, 4:01pm
Post #15 of 27
(625 views)
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I really really want to cut out the stupid love story scene between Kili and Mary Sue Tauriel, it bothers me so much!!!
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Macfeast
Rohan
Jan 15 2015, 5:59pm
Post #16 of 27
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That sounds like a great scenario.
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And it could have served multiple purposes, too. Not only would it wrap up Legolas' character arc, it would also:
- Give us an example of direct collaboration between elves, men, and dwarves, that which was such a vital point of the battle in the book, yet is largely absent in the film (save for that one elf-and-dwarf moment during the orcs' intial charge, before the elves retreat to Dale).
- Let us know what's actually going on down on the big battlefield, show that there are others still fighting (including the otherwise neglected remainder of Thorin's company).
- Allow for more time with Dáin, maybe even set him up to be a diplomatic - if pragmatic - leader (and to-be worthy king) by showing that he can actually collaborate with an elf.
(This post was edited by Macfeast on Jan 15 2015, 6:02pm)
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huzzlewhat
The Shire
Jan 15 2015, 6:25pm
Post #17 of 27
(595 views)
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Legolas as scout, not commander
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Legolas could show his leadership qualities and rally his people along with Bard and Dain in a final stand (suggested in dialogue but not shown) showing that the world view Legolas of the LOTR had finally emerged after being caught between Thranduil and Tauriel.
Except Legolas of the LOTR wasn't a battle leader — he was primarily a scout, and definitely subordinate to the leadership of Aragorn. To have him step up to rally his people and lead an army in BOFA would have elevated him to a role that he would then step back from in LOTR. His emergence as the Legolas of LOTR happened earlier in the film, at the point when he rejected Thranduil's order to return in favor of scouting out the threat that he perceived at Gundabad. His battle with Bolg at the end of the film is really a distraction from the character development that's already happened.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 15 2015, 7:06pm
Post #18 of 27
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Multiple Benefits & Opens Up His Character
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There is a wonderful still shot of Bard and Legolas speaking together at the Lake side scene. I cannot recall it being part of the eventual cut but it offered a hint at the type of collaboration I am suggesting.
Legolas is a Sindarian Prince and the heir to Thranduil it would be perfectly natural for him to co operate on equal terms with Dain and Bard. His performance in LOTR is not undermined in fact it would serve to remind the audience the stature of the heir of Isildur that a Sindarian Prince will operate as his lieutenant which is effectively what happens in LOTR. My suggestion would look like Haldir at the battle of helms deep and would underscore that piece of PJ lore.
I left it unsaid but it has already been highlighted by a subsequent poster it pushes the narrative of the battle on and once the Eagles arrive we then know how its going to play out after witnessing the wonderful character driven elevated section in the Ravenhill.
I will be most interested to see what happens to Beorn and Radagast in the EE because as with Dain and Bard they need to be threaded properly in the narrative.
I need to see the film more times but I have a feeling a good deal of this film operates as independent character cells and what would give it a more symphonic and integrated feel is if there was more interaction across those cells. The scene where Bilbo brings the arkenstone to Thranduil is in my memory as close an example of having the three armies Gandalf and Bilbo in the same room indeed that is just two,
It will be most interesting to see the funeral scene in that context
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Bernhardina
Rohan
Jan 15 2015, 9:44pm
Post #19 of 27
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Featuring Legolas was just a huge mistake. I mean, he should have had a cameo, I was alright with him in DoS but in BotFA he just steals the climax and it doesn't make any sense because it isn't his story. He is just an action figure. How will I be able to stand him now in the LotR? I actually think PJ destroyed this character. 
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Anorien
Rohan
Jan 16 2015, 5:41am
Post #20 of 27
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When the Hobbit movies were first being discussed and it was finally confirmed that Legolas would be in the films, I was very happy. I thought he would do well with cameos, maybe a few fight scenes, a little character development, etc. It made sense that he would be there. Overall, I thought an understated Legolas presence would be a nice way to show a connection between the Hobbit films and LotR.
But instead, he's a part of a love triangle, and has way too many crazy elf stunts. His climbing the falling stones stunt...just a little too much for me. I don't know if it ruined the sequence for me, but it definitely detracted from the climax. I think for BOTFA and Legolas, less would have done more.
The Lord of the Fellowship of the Return of the Two Towers of the Hobbit King of the Rings...with the Silmarillion!
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 19 2015, 4:43am
Post #21 of 27
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Mary Sue Tauriel (as a matter of fact, this is the character I was apparently playing back in the 80s when I was doing D&D and living history...)
...but i could live without the romance.
In fact, it would have been a stronger tale if we'd had just an interaction, a coming to terms with another people/race...
but OMG, we had to have a Romance! Like, you know, every time a guy and girl share screen time it Has To Be A Romance!!!
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 19 2015, 4:46am
Post #22 of 27
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I fell in love with Legolas when Orlando Bloom was in diapers (I read LOTR in 1978) so the stunts leave me going "meh!"
However, I would love to have seen more bookverse style character development of him, not Just One More Epic Fight/Stunt scene.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 19 2015, 4:47am
Post #23 of 27
(470 views)
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(and I do not game at all)
...what??????? Legend of Zelda???????????
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jan 19 2015, 5:05am
Post #24 of 27
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Not Scientific but interesting
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I am currently in New Zealand for their summer and met with some friends this afternoon one of whom was an extra in the by the Lake scene.
The general view they have gathered is there are way to many fight scenes. What that means to me is whatever fights they have seen over the 8 hours they do not have sufficient value or purpose. to engage them.
Imagine the same films with no:-
1) No scene 88 just get to Rivendell asap and read the map after the trauma of the trolls.
2) No fight post Gandalf blast under the mountain.
3) Streamline the cones scene.
4) Make the attack on Kili a thriller scene with a sniper archer with one of three orcs captured.
5) Have two scouts at Laketown one of which Tauriel kills the survivor reporting to Azog Bolg.
6) No forges.
7) Remove Legolas/Bolg and put Bard into the leadership role proven category and then that final flourish I have suggested.
Story all told and by default more light is shone on all the real story beats.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jan 19 2015, 5:06am)
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mangotree
The Shire
Jan 20 2015, 2:15pm
Post #25 of 27
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We need a romance, but I just can't stand a romance between elf and dwarf!!! Even if Mary Sue Tauriel falls in love with a man, like Bard, I will feel better.
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