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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Fan Art:
Need help with a Hobbit-based fanfic

Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Jan 13 2015, 3:44am

Post #1 of 17 (2196 views)
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Need help with a Hobbit-based fanfic Can't Post

I know, I shouldn't waste my time on this, but I have an idea for a "pre-movie" story and need a little help with the background. I know some of you TORNers are much more knowledgeable than I am on some of the little details, so that's why I'm asking. I have looked on a map in Empire magazine, but can't find the Blue Mountains or the Iron Hills. Where were they located? Where is Erid Luin, especially in relation to the Blue Mountains, and where is the Greenway? Is that the path Gandalf & the Dwarves were on when they were talking with Radagast before the Orcs & Wargs came? Finally, how old were Kili and Fili? I have this idea that Kili was 66, and Fili was 83, is that right? I know I just saw that on another thread a few days ago, but of course I can't remember what it was called. Any help would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


sevilodorf
Grey Havens


Jan 13 2015, 4:04am

Post #2 of 17 (1955 views)
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Two suggestions [In reply to] Can't Post

Get a copy of Karen Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth if you are serious about accurately basing Middle Earth fanfic. (and then decide and stick to a decision as to whether you will be movie based/book based and then become a duck (let it roll off) when people argue with you.)

Look at the maps at the front of any of the LOTR books and you will see the Blue Mountains are to the northwest of the Shire.

As for ages -- check the family trees in ROTK's appendices. (Fili was 5 years older than Kili)

If no access to books -- go for the Encyclopedia of Arda.

Fourth Age Adventures at the Inn of the Burping Troll http://burpingtroll.com
Home of TheOneRing.net Best FanFic stories of 2005 and 2006 "The Last Grey Ship" and "Ashes, East Wind, Hope That Rises" by Erin Rua

(Found in Mathoms, LOTR Tales Untold)




AshNazg
Gondor


Jan 13 2015, 4:11am

Post #3 of 17 (1942 views)
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I'm going to try and answer these without looking at a map... [In reply to] Can't Post

Ered Luin and the Iron Hills are located at the top of the map on polar opposite sides. Ered Luin is the row of mountains furthest east. And the Iron Hills is the collection on the furthest west - with all of Middle-earth (as we know it) in between.

The Blue Mountains are just south of Ered Luin - The Grey Havens lies right between Ered Luin and the Blue Mountains.

The Greenway is a name given to the road leading South of Bree. It's much further west of where the company meet Radagast (The Trollshaws). They didn't take this road, but I think remember them mentioning it in AUJ. But I don't remember why?

Fili and Kili's ages I don't know. That's someone else's department.


(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jan 13 2015, 4:21am)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jan 13 2015, 4:12am

Post #4 of 17 (1928 views)
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Geography of ME [In reply to] Can't Post

The Ered Luin are mountains to the west of the Shire, close to the Sea. The Iron hills are east of Erebor. The Greenway (in this time period) is a road that travels from Breeh towards Dunland (an area that is adjacent to Rohan and Isengard, west of the southern part of the Misty Mountains. In Bree the Gerenway crosses the Great East Road, which is what Thorin and Company travelled along towards Rivendell.

No idea about the ages.



AshNazg
Gondor


Jan 13 2015, 4:24am

Post #5 of 17 (1925 views)
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According to wikis, Fili died aged 82 and Kili died aged 77... [In reply to] Can't Post

I imagine this is from the book somewhere. How it lines up with the movies I don't know, someone on the boards does though.


(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jan 13 2015, 4:25am)


lionoferebor
Rohan

Jan 13 2015, 4:59am

Post #6 of 17 (1943 views)
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Ered Luin [In reply to] Can't Post

is Elvish (Sindarin) for Blue Mountains. Ered meaning "mountain" and Luin meaning "blue".

The Iron Hills were located about 40 leagues east of Erebor.

The Greenway was formerly the old North Road. It began at Fornost, cut through Bree, crossed the South Downs to join the main road from the Shire to southern border of Arnor (the North-kingdom).

I think in the movie Gandalf tells Elrond they were traveling on the Great East Road. It linked Lindon and the Grey Havens in the west to Rivendell and the Misty Mountains, passing through the Shire and Bree. It was used mainly by Dwarves in the late Third Age as a way to Ered Luin.

By dwarf standards at age 66 Kili would have been too young to go on the quest. That said, in book verse he is 77, while Fili is five years older at age 82. However, I've read on some threads that in movie-verse they are a year younger, Fili 81 and Kili 76.

Hope this helps.


lionoferebor
Rohan

Jan 13 2015, 6:00am

Post #7 of 17 (1925 views)
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By the way... [In reply to] Can't Post

All of this came from The Complete Tolkien Companion by J.E.A. Tyler. Everything you would ever want to know about Middle Earth is in this book.


Quote
is Elvish (Sindarin) for Blue Mountains. Ered meaning "mountain" and Luin meaning "blue".

The Iron Hills were located about 40 leagues east of Erebor.

The Greenway was formerly the old North Road. It began at Fornost, cut through Bree, crossed the South Downs to join the main road from the Shire to southern border of Arnor (the North-kingdom).

I think in the movie Gandalf tells Elrond they were traveling on the Great East Road. It linked Lindon and the Grey Havens in the west to Rivendell and the Misty Mountains, passing through the Shire and Bree. It was used mainly by Dwarves in the late Third Age as a way to Ered Luin.

By dwarf standards at age 66 Kili would have been too young to go on the quest. That said, in book verse he is 77, while Fili is five years older at age 82. However, I've read on some threads that in movie-verse they are a year younger, Fili 81 and Kili 76.

Hope this helps.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 13 2015, 2:02pm

Post #8 of 17 (1868 views)
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Ered Luin = the Blue Mountains [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry Ash, the Ered Luin and the Blue Mountains are the same thing. There is a northern and a southern range. The Gulf of Lune (and the Grey Havens) lies between the two.

The Iron Hills, as noted by others, are maybe 100 miles east of the Lonely Mountain.

The Greenway was the Old North Road where it ran between Tharbad and Bree. An offshoot led to the Sarn Ford at the Brandywine River to end at Michel Delving. There was probably once an inn and/or a trading post where the road forked, alhough I imagine that it might have been abandoned by the time of The Hobbit.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 13 2015, 2:11pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 13 2015, 2:18pm

Post #9 of 17 (1884 views)
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Dwarf Ages [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
By dwarf standards at age 66 Kili would have been too young to go on the quest. That said, in book verse he is 77, while Fili is five years older at age 82. However, I've read on some threads that in movie-verse they are a year younger, Fili 81 and Kili 76.



Peter Jackson altered the year of Bilbo's eleventy-first birthday to TA 3000, making 2940 (instead of 2941) the year of Thorin's quest. So in film-terms, Fili died in his 81st year and Kili in his 76th. Tolkien wrote in an essay in the 1950s that Dwarves reached their full growth around age 40; this invites speculation that perhaps Gimli wasn't too young to accompany his father and Thorin but instead too emotionally immature.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 13 2015, 2:25pm)


AshNazg
Gondor


Jan 13 2015, 3:02pm

Post #10 of 17 (1844 views)
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Dang it... I was going to say that! [In reply to] Can't Post

My post originally started "I think Ered Luin and the Blue Mountains are the same thing" (because they seemed to be used interchangeably in the films) but then I doubted myself and didn't put it.

I'm not the best with the written geography of Middle-earth but I have practically memorised the map in my book, and on that map the mountains are labelled Ered Luin in the north and Blue Mountains in the south. Didn't realise it was just a translation, though. Thanks Smile

*always learning*


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 13 2015, 3:56pm

Post #11 of 17 (1852 views)
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Minhiriath [In reply to] Can't Post

F.Y.I. - The region of Minhiriath, east of the Greenway between the rivers Brandywine and Greyflood, is pretty much depopulated by the time of The Hobbit. This area of Eriador was the most severely affected by the Great Plague of TA 1636 and what population remained was killed in or left following devastating floods in 2912. These floods also ruined Tharbad and destroyed the bridge there that crossed the Greyflood.

So, no inns once one leaves Hobbit country and no folk as whom you would trust (except maybe the occasional Ranger). Since Aragorn would have been a young man in the years just before the Hobbit movies, it is just possible that a group traveling the Greenway could have encountered him. Maybe (and he would have been using a false name).

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 13 2015, 3:57pm)


ShireHorse
Rohan

Jan 13 2015, 4:31pm

Post #12 of 17 (1842 views)
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The very easiest way [In reply to] Can't Post

to find out information is simply just to google things - much quicker than reading books or even asking us.

I have written two fanfics of epic length, much of which is set in Ered Luin (The Blue Mountains) and The Grey Havens. I googled everything for my background details and, in thousands of words of detail, hardly anyone has queried whether or not I have got things right, even though the stories have been read by some very knowledgeable people.


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Jan 13 2015, 9:28pm

Post #13 of 17 (1834 views)
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Thanks to everyone for your help [In reply to] Can't Post

I found a couple of maps online that help, but the whole Erid Luin/Blue Mountains thing is a little confusing. Now I don't know where they were going - I originally assumed they left the Blue Mountains for Erid Luin! This fanfic is very movie-based, in fact it's the story that Kili told Tauriel. Truth is, I want to learn WordPress, and I figured this story would be a good thing to blog about. I will probably use the name "Killian Carter," a play on my username here. I don't think it will be incredibly long, most likely in the 20-40 page range.

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 14 2015, 1:14am

Post #14 of 17 (2039 views)
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Kili's Fire Moon Story [In reply to] Can't Post

Here is what he tells Tauriel (I'm using the English subtitles):

Quote

I saw a fire moon once. It rose over the pass near Dunland. Huge. Red and gold, it was. It filled the sky. We were an escort for some merchants from Ered Luin. They were trading in silverwork for furs. We took the Greenway south, keeping the mountain on our left. And then it appeared. This huge fire moon, lighting our path.

I wish I could show you the caverns.



The mountain might have been Methedras, the southernmost peak of the Misty Mountains. Or perhaps Dol Baran, a rounded, heather-covered foothill of the Misty Mountains; but that might be too close to Isengard and too far from Dunland to be what he was talking about. The pass was likely the Gap of Rohan. The caverns were doubtless Kili and Fili's home in the Blue Mountains.

A couple of other places on the route where he might have had adventures include: the Tharbad Ford, a dangerous place to cross the Greyflood River since the floods of TA 2912 destroyed the bridge and devastated the city (now abandoned); and the Barrow-downs, which they would have closely passed if the caravan went through Bree instead of taking the Sarn Road from Michel Delving. They might have even encountered Tom Bombadil, but that seems unlikely since they would pass too far from the Old Forest. Instead, a Ranger from the North might have aided them against a Barrow-wight.

Speaking of Old Tom, do you think that he might have had several aspects, depending on who was looking at him? To Hobbits he would look just as Frodo and his companions saw him. The Big Folk (Men) of Bree-land might see his aspect of Orald as a spry, cheerful old man. As Forn, Dwarves might see him as a tall-ish Dwarf with maybe a slight build. Elves would perceive Iarwain Ben-adar as a radiant Elf or perhaps as a Maiar in Elvish form. Thoughts?

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)


(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 14 2015, 1:16am)


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

Jan 14 2015, 10:46am

Post #15 of 17 (1819 views)
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An Old Chesnut Resource for The Tolkien Scholar in You... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello K.Cartwheels, hope your story turns out well. This goes back to 70s and 80s fandom, but one of the original glossary reference books was The Complete Guide to Middle Earth by Robert Foster. I have 79 edition which includes the Silmarillion, along with LOTR, Hobbit, and JRR short stories, poems. It's a simple dictionary and thesaurus style book, you can look up just about any character, place, location, object, event, and Foster has a short, long, midsize description of it. He went all out and it was wonderful to be able to flip through it for fun on a rainy day, did you know Goatleaf was a family of men in Bree?? Foster then tells what Tolkien book you can find that reference in, even what page.

Not sure its current status, in print and out of print, so many books of this nature have been compiled since, but it was the original and very simple easy to read and use. Ebay or Amazon might have it??? And props to whoever mentioned Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth, it's incredibly descriptive and detailed, with maps about how things looked, what actual road various characters travelled on, arrows to indicate paths, the terrain they encountered. Shelob's Lair will spook the heck out of you just looking at it, maps of how her scary tunnels worked, and you can see what peril Sam and Frodo were in, and how the big fat arachnid developed her own lair and roadway system.

I have Tolkien reference books going back to the 70s but most are theme and character and story analysis. "What Tolkien Means....." which include ideas that Frodo is a messiah like figure, Gandalf is an archangel ((Though Tolkien was a devout Roman Catholic, I found some of these a stretch, but what the heck, the books were so impactful people wanted to go heavy duty in the analysis dept.))

Anyway, hope this is all good for your project, Bilbo with "my books, my garden, my armchair" was a great history reader and loremaster, in his own way. Now you get to follow his path.

The 13th Warrior
There's No Lore Like Middle Earth Lore


Kilidoescartwheels
Tol Eressea


Jan 17 2015, 4:00am

Post #16 of 17 (1829 views)
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Many thanks! The story so far... [In reply to] Can't Post

Your information was very helpful. The story so far has Thorin's people living in the northern range of Erid Luin. I noticed on many maps that there's some kind of river that separates the mountains. Anyway, the merchants will travel east along the northern edge of the shire before heading to Bree. They plan to then turn southwest, eventually reaching the southern range before returning home. But while in Bree, someone tells Thorin that some Dunedin rangers on the Greenway have seen a dwarf wearing a ring similar to Thorin's. I still haven't nailed down exactly where, yet, but Thorin will insist on going farther south than originally planned. Gloin agrees only because he thinks they might do some trade with the Rangers. They will meet a few Rangers, who tell Thorin that they haven't seen any such thing. Thorin will decide to search in Dunland, sending the caravan on its way to fulfill Gloin's contract. The Rangers promise Kili & Fili that they will keep an eye on Thorin. What do you think? Plausible? I have written the first 2 chapters, but haven't set up the Wordpress blog yet - hopefully Monday, as I'm off work for MLK day. I'll send you the link if you'd like, just let me know. Thanks again for your help.

Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jan 17 2015, 1:06pm

Post #17 of 17 (1904 views)
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Keep in mind... [In reply to] Can't Post

The Bree-landers don't know much about the Rangers and view them with suspicion. Most locals probably wouldn't even know the word "Dunedain."

The South Road passes through the Gap of Rohan and continues through Rohan and Gondor as the Great West Road until it reaches Minas Tirith. From Minas Tirith, various routes lead to Southern Gondor, Osgiliath and Harad. Thorin would probably split off from the caravan before reaching the Gap of Rohan. It doesn't sound like the merchant had any plans to cross the River Isen.

I'm sure you noticed that the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains are also very near the Grey Havens and the Elf-folk of Cirdan the Shipwright. Somewhere on the east side of the mountains, north of the Havens, should be the ruins of the First-Age Dwarven city of Belgost (although Tolkien never indicated that the exact location of the ruins was known). Belegost's sister city of Nogrod is probably at the bottom of the Gulf of Lune. Oddly, Fonstad located Belegost much further south than it should be. I'm not sure that you can make use of this information, but it might provide another story-seed.

One resource that I whole-heartedly recommend is Karen Wynn Fonstad's The Atlas of Middle-earth. I have found the revised edition to be invaluable.

"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.

"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet."
- Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)

 
 

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