Our Sponsor Sideshow Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' chapter discussion: "A Conspiracy Unmasked" **
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All

Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 13 2015, 3:07am

Post #1 of 119 (4216 views)
Shortcut
** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' chapter discussion: "A Conspiracy Unmasked" ** Can't Post

Greetings, my friends and Fellows of the Room!
This week we foray into Conspiracies, and their Unmaskings.
Of course, we are talking about Hobbits. Smile So despite the title its all rather benign, and hot baths are involved.
The journey of our Hobbit walking-party continues, mushroom basket in hand...





Crossing the Brandywine: a rather momentous event, in the story so far. This is a complex river, one filled with history as are much of JRRT's landscapes. It begins near abandoned Annuminas of the Dunedain, on Lake Evendim, and courses south. One of its tributaries is the Withywindle, a valley filled with all manner of magic and mystery. Frodo's parents died in this river; and in our chapter, it represents a line separating the Known and Unknown particularly to Sam.
Frodo grew up in Brandy Hall; so it is revisiting a childhood stomping ground for him. What do you think his thoughts may have been, crossing the River?
We get the internal impression from one character only: Sam, the furthest traveller from home in the group. Why might that be, and what do you think about Sam's musings as they cross?
I like the impression of Merry here: as The Ferryman. Does it build on what we have seen of Merry so far, or present new information?
The idea of the Riders not being able to cross running water; not an idea that JRRT ultimately found sustainable due to geographical issues. Would you like that idea or is it too overused?
A note of interest: in the original drafts, the Brandywine Bridge was twenty miles from the Ferry; in the revised 50th Anniversary Editions, the distance is shortened to ten due to JRRT changing the size of Buckland. Does the original twenty miles make more sense in terms of delay, or does ten still work?


(Geeky linguistic note: morphing Baranduin to Brandywine; don't; you love how JRRT can sketch the evolution of names through cultures and across time?)





Brandy Hall and Buckland; a bit different to our Hobbit lands as introduced so far which I always find and intriguing authorial device: to sketch and existing, novel thing and then promptly contradict it. The proximity to a dark and dangerous Old Forest make the Bucklander lifestyle unlike in many ways to sleepy Hobbiton. Do you think JRRT wanted to represent Hobbits in stages of worldliness, to advance the level of peril or is it related to characterization of Merry? Or something else?





What are your thoughts on that Buckland safety feature, the Hedge? And yet, that the Brandybucks cross into the Old Forest 'when the fit takes them'?





Shocking fact: Merry knows about the Ring! AND the Red Book. Does Merry's years of silence and watchfulness, listening and planning change your view of Hobbits; or is it just more of a surprise that Merry was up to all this?





Frodo's feelings upon learning about The Conspiracy: "Sam!" cried Frodo, feeling that amazement could go no further, and quite unable to decide whether he felt angry, amused, relieved or merely foolish.
Does the advice of Gildor bear fruit here, and maybe give more weight and purpose (authorial or character) to the conversation Frodo has with Gildor by the fire?





The house at Crickhollow sounds quite adorable to us, the reader; it seems quite as comforting as a home should be. Frodo's discomfiture upon entering is not for the house itself (as non-hole-made as it is) but for the lie he tells his friends. Warm baths, good Hobbity food including those indulgent Mushrooms; all of Bilbo's things in place, reminding Frodo of his uncle. It must have been a temptation then, to want to stay ... Frodo certainly has that thought. Is this homely little place like a last temptation (or maybe the first of many?) before trekking into the danger of the World, for all the Hobbits? Or just for Frodo?





Sam is revealed as the Chief Conspirator: how do you see this piece of surprising (to Frodo, and likely the reader) news? And what do you think of Sam's actions and decisions during the time before the trip began; first sharing info and then 'drying up'?




I would like to discuss that symbolic dream of Frodo's at Crickhollow:

"Eventually he fell into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later.
Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far-off; a sound he had never heard in waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were no trees after all. He was on a dark heath, and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the sea. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder."


What do you make of this dream?
(NB: I must add an interesting piece of information that may (or may not) relate to the dream from The Road Goes Ever On. Sadly, I don't have a copy in hand: like Peter O'Toole's first walk-on role, I must say blankly, "I don't have it." (No Amazon Prime shipping for the book!) My guess is someone scholarly like Elthir or Voronwe might have a copy, and know more of the actual passage the bit below comes from). But in any case I did find this while researching Gildor:

'No doubt Gildor and his companions (Vol. I., Chap. 3), since they appear to have been going eastward, were Elves living in or near Rivendell returning from the palantir of the Tower Hills...'

The Road Goes Ever On, J.R.R Tolkien





I look forward to discussing this chapter with you all! Cheers!










(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 13 2015, 3:11am)


Kim
Valinor


Jan 13 2015, 4:22am

Post #2 of 119 (3693 views)
Shortcut
A cozy little chapter [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodos thoughts crossing the Brandywine: I assumed that he was distracted by thoughts of the Black Riders, but I didnt think he may have been thinking of his parents, and his early life in this part of the Shire, but that would make sense. I suppose we only got to hear Sams thoughts since he was the only one who hadnt been in that part of the Shire before nor crossed the river yet.

Bath song: this kind of cracked me up grown Hobbits singing in the tub? But then I suppose, I sing in the shower

Brandy Hall and Buckland: this seems to not only help set up the characterization of Merry, as someone who might be a little better suited as a potential companion on a dangerous quest since he already lives so close to the edge of the Shire, but also to remind us of Frodos early upbringing and perhaps how he might remember/regain some of his youthful wildness as he sets out from the Shire on his adventure.

The Conspiracy: that was a nice surprise to find out that Merry knew what was going on, and that theyd all been in the know for quite some time, with Sam as the ringleader. Some of the weight came off Frodos shoulders knowing he wouldnt have to say goodbye to his friends nor face the scary unknown alone.

Once theyd all decided to leave together, and sang the song based on the dwarves song, all I could think was aww, its Misty Mountains Cold and was able to sing along. Love the unexpected Hobbit reference.

Frodos dream: the beginning seemed to be Frodo processing the presence of the Black Riders, then when he found himself by the Sea, that seems to me that he was basically trying to get as far away from them as possible, so headed in the opposite direction from the one he knew he would be travelling the next morning. The West, and Sea, representing safety.


Thanks Brethil! Smile

#OneLastTime


a.s.
Valinor


Jan 13 2015, 1:17pm

Post #3 of 119 (3677 views)
Shortcut
Frodo's dream [In reply to] Can't Post

went through multiple changes (four, as I recall without looking) while Tolkien worked out the specifics of who was doing what when and where. The dream was intended to be the first of Frodo's "visionary" dreams, he was supposed to be envisioning Gandalf prisoned (I think) in a tower by the Sea. However, Gandalf eventually ended up nowhere near the Shire and we are left with an evocative, moving, but not strictly prescient dream.


I think Frodo is glimpsing from afar his eventual journey over the Sea.


For an interesting old post about sea-longing as a theme in LOTR, from the great NZ Strider, see here.


I also always think of Keat's "Ode to a Nightingale" verse here, the poem with the "magic casements, opening on the foam of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn,"


Thou wast not born for death, immortal Bird!
No hungry generations tread thee down;
The voice I hear this passing night was heard
In ancient days by emperor and clown:
Perhaps the self-same song that found a path
Through the sad heart of Ruth, when, sick for home,
She stood in tears amid the alien corn;
The same that oft-times hath
Charmed magic casements, opening on the foam
Of perilous seas, in faery lands forlorn.



a.s.

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



Arandiel
Grey Havens

Jan 13 2015, 4:41pm

Post #4 of 119 (3641 views)
Shortcut
Merry [In reply to] Can't Post

The overwhelming sense I get in this chapter, particularly, is of Merry's competence, in pretty much everything he takes on. He's one who watches, listens, makes connections, explores... and when the time comes to act, he knows just what to do and how to accomplish it. Looking ahead in the stories, it's setting up the challenge for him of letting go of those he sees as his 'charges', particularly Pippin, so they may grow in leadership as well.


Walk to Rivendell: Walk with the Fellowship Challenge - grab a buddy and let the magic live on, one step at a time.

Join us, Thursdays on Main!


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 13 2015, 5:12pm

Post #5 of 119 (3650 views)
Shortcut
"It is a good dream" [In reply to] Can't Post

I made some notes on it so as to study it for a writing project I was doing myself once - wanna see? I partly answers some of your questions.


First the dream itself (last 2 paras of the chapter):

Quote
Eventually he fell into a vague dream , in which he seemed to be looking out of a high window over a dark sea of tangled trees. Down below among the roots there was the sound of creatures crawling and snuffling. He felt sure they would smell him out sooner or later.

Then he heard a noise in the distance. At first he thought it was a great wind coming over the leaves of the forest. Then he knew it was not leaves, but the sound of the Sea far-off; a sound he had never heard in his waking life, though it had often troubled his dreams. Suddenly he found he was out in the open. There were no trees after all. He was on a dark heath, and there was a strange salt smell in the air. Looking up he saw before him a tall white tower, standing alone on a high ridge. A great desire came over him to climb the tower and see the Sea. He started to struggle up the ridge towards the tower: but suddenly a light came in the sky, and there was a noise of thunder.


This is the night of 25-26 September 3018. It doesn't directly seem to relate to events about that time elsewhere (e.g. it is not like the dream Frodo will have at Bombadil's house where he is very clearly seeing a vision of Gandalf as Saruman's captive) Gandalf had escaped from Orthanc in September 18, and crossed the Isen on Shadowfax on September 24.

This dream seems quite like ones that I have in that it isnt a coherent narrative. Instead, there are fragmentary scenes in which one thing is linked to another by some thought or sensory impression. The scenes so linked dont have to have any other kind of link, let alone a logical one. At least this is my memory of my dreams: so a lot of fictional dreams are too logical and linear to see very dream-like to me. here the sequence is:
Window - see trees (metaphor of them being a tangled sea)
Sounds of creatures down below
Feel Fear - being hunted
Noise - wind in the trees? No, really the noise of the sea, not a metaphorical sea now.
No trees now - smell of the sea. There is still a tower, but the point of view is from the outside.
Feel desire to climb up, and see the Sea (note how this is kind of circular - trying to get back into the tower which was the starting point of this dream, though the metaphorical sea has now become a real one?)
Light in the sky noise of thunder
The dream ends there, but the light and noise segues into real life - at the start of the next chapter Merry is banging on the door to wake Frodo up, and has a candle. Thus there is a real-world light and the noise which Frodo could have sensed in his dream (and it also links nicely into the action to come).


The Sea has capital S - why (because it is a capitalized power rather than any old sea)?
Note that the noise of the sea has often troubled Frodos dreams (which presumably means both that hes dreamed about it often, and the experience is troubling).
Frodos dream can encompass the sensation of a salt tang in the air, even though presumably he has never experienced this for real.
Motif of longing to see the sea - also famously affects the elves of Middle-earth - significant? (I'll read that NZ Strider link!)

Tolkiens first draft of this (HoME Vol 6 Ch 4 To Maggots Farm and Buckland) is shorter:


Quote
At last he fell asleep into a vague dream, in which he seemed to be lying under a window that looked out into a sea of tangled trees: outside there was a snuffling.

The Dream of the Tower is discussed further in HoME V7, The Treason of Isengard (end of Ch 2 The Fourth Phase (I)). Tolkien re-writes a dream in which Frodo sees a tower, but it is surrounded by Black Riders. This is initially the dream Frodo has at the Prancing Pony. At this point the light & thunder segues into Trotter -the character who was Aragorns precursor - opening the shutters. But then it is moved back to the night at Crickhollow and undergoes some further re-writing. At this point, Frodo is seeing in his dream events which really happen to Gandalf (From a narrative outline of Autumn 1939: Gandalf is besieged in the Western Tower. He cannot get away while they guard it with five Black Riders. But when Black Riders have located Frodo and found that he has gone off without Gandalf they ride away This is what Frodo saw in his dream (Treason of Isengard p 33). In early chronologies of these events, Gandalf escaped on 24th and then on 25 September (so Frodos dream would at that point have been a real-time vision).

In the final story, Frodo does still dream of Gandalfs escape, but later (at the house of Tom Bombadil).

So the dream seems to have been built up in Tolkiens drafts from these themes:
First: At a window; tangled trees; snuffling (being sought)
Then: A tower by the sea
The dream always ends with noise and light, which always segues into events that are waking Frodo up.

Being sought be snuffling creatures seems a natural enough dream for someone who is being pursued by sniffing Black Riders. Its easy to see it as looking back to Frodos experience at Woody End, and reminds us that, although Frodo is temporarily comfortable at Crickhollow the Black Riders cannot be far away. The significance of the Tower by the sea is firstly that Frodo is somehow sensing what is happening to Gandalf; but later it suggests a subconscious longing to experience the sea (as Frodo finally will when he leaves Middle-earth). The tower motif no longer has any very obvious plot significance (that I can see), but I like that - it seems realistic that Frodos dreams arent always useful to the plot: this one retains some of the muddle that I remember from my own dreams.

For a completely different interpretation, Hammond and Scull suggest that this might prefigure Frodo's first night in Lorien, when he is in a tree and Gollum is snuffling around in the undergrowth.

As to what Freudians would make of a dream involving feelings fear and desire to gain a tall tower... I don't suppose it's relevant at all Wink

~~~~~~

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 13 2015, 5:30pm

Post #6 of 119 (3650 views)
Shortcut
Sam's thoughts on crossing the river [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
He had a strange feeling as the slow gurgling stream slipped by: his old life lay behind in the mists, dark adventure lay in front. He scratched his head and for a moment had a passing wish that Mr.Frodo could have gone on living quietly at Bag End.


I think it's brilliant - Sam makes first a poetic observation (in the first sentence) and then dismisses it with a characteristically down-to-earth thought. That's Sam - he'll make a poet yet (or a warrior...)

The language seems wonderfully to bring out the feeling of a creepy, damp night crossing. I don't think I can explain it, but I can twist it into a tanka that I think brings it out...

A dark strange feeling:
Slow gurgling stream slips by
Old life left behind
Dark adventure lies in front
Look back - A dark black bundle!

See what I mean?

Not sure how Japanese poetry Samurai Sam is as yet, given that we see he keeps going back to mundane thoughts - he'd be like:

The cherry blossom
In Mr Frodo's garden -
Looks real untidy

~~~~~~

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 13 2015, 5:44pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 13 2015, 5:47pm

Post #7 of 119 (3642 views)
Shortcut
One song to the tune of another... [In reply to] Can't Post

You can sing Pippin's bath song to the tune of the Radetzky March.

Though you probably shouldn't...

~~~~~~

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jan 13 2015, 7:38pm

Post #8 of 119 (3632 views)
Shortcut
More worldly Hobbits [In reply to] Can't Post

I must say that I felt that Farmer Maggot was a harder version of Hobbits than those of Hobbiton which we meet firstly in the tale. Merry continues this trend. Maggot keeps dogs, is tough with trespassers etc. Merry is also probably more aware of things happening outside the Shire or at the least on its borders than Frodo and Sam might be. One thing I have wondered about Farmer Maggot was that whilst we know that he has actually met Tom Bombadil and is even on frequent, friendly terms with him, had he also met Strider or if not him one of the Rangers and aware of their existence and role? They did have similar jobs in similar places after all!!


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jan 13 2015, 7:54pm

Post #9 of 119 (3622 views)
Shortcut
The conspiracy [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, Frode is surprised by the extent do the Hobbits conspiracy about him. But in a way he has the last laugh at the end of the book.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 13 2015, 9:34pm

Post #10 of 119 (3619 views)
Shortcut
I'm trying to visualize the Ferry [In reply to] Can't Post

It seems quite a well-established crossing - someone has nicely maintained the path down to it (bollards, no less!) and there are lamps alight there, suggesting night-time travellers are common enough to make it worthwhile illuminating the landing area. But it seems to be self-service (at this time and season, of course - there could be a ferryman who operates it for some hours and lights the lamps at the end of his or her shift).

Merry is mentioned pushing of with a pole, but I'm supposing the ferry is not a punt (in which the craft is propelled by pushing the pole against the river bed). My reason for guessing this is that punting only works - for fairly obvious reasons - in shallow water, and all the more so if the punt pole has to be handled by a 3-4 foot hobbit. A river shallow enough for a hobbit to punt across probably wouldn't be the sort of obstacle to a horseman that would require the horse to swim (which is what Frodo and Merry discuss later). So I'm imagining the river is pretty deep, and that the pole is for starting and for fending off.

The kind of rope-guided ferry shown in the FOTR movie seems a reasonable guess - they run diagonally across the river so that the ferry can drift downstream one way (then it is hauled back again going the other way). That might explain why nobody is described as rowing etc.: of course they could be and it is not mentioned, but I like to think of the crossing being in eerie silence and stillness: that seems to go better with Sam's reflections on it.

The scene in the book is, it is worth noting a lot calmer in the film where the hobbits leap onto the ferry with a Rider in hot pursuit. In the book it seems like the hobbits are a long way into the stream before the Rider turns up

When they get to the other bank, Merry ties the ferry up. This sounds like it is done very calmly - standard operating procedure rather than a an unusual anti-pursuit step (to prevent the Rider they have seen behind them hauling the ferry back to the other bank again and so getting across). But if it is the standard thing you do it seems rather odd when you think about it - any law-abiding hobbit traveller coming to the West (Marish) bank and hoping to get across is now stranded.

There is the odd detail that no boats are left on the west bank: dead handy now of course, but I wonder why that might be the custom? Surely the Bucklanders are not expecting an invasion from the Shire? Or mushroom rustlers, perhaps? Wink

As Brethil says, there's the idea in a that the Rider can't cross water anyway (with some vague exception to cover the Ford of Brunien later on). But Frodo et al. don't know this at this point, and neither do we if we are new readers - so they and we assume that their pursuer has a regular horse and wouldn't mind a dip.

Whether the Rider could theoretically get across on the ferry (had Merry not tied it up) is also complete speculation of course - maybe it's too small, or he can't figure out how to operate it, or there are other practical obstacles

Doubtless all these things are explained in the missing Dungeon Master's Guide to Middle-earth * which perhaps is missing beause Tolkien saw no reason to write it, being more interested in other things. (Some of us have been discussing this recently on another thread, which might be of interest - the bit whcih is relevant to this discussion starts here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=824808#824808 ). But sometimes it is fun to think these things out a bit...

...even if only to find

Quote
But as many of us have noticed, these are the parts of the story that seem to hold together least successfully, or to make the least sense in "real world" terms (which are the terms in which they're given - presumably swords are swords and a stone wall is a stone wall, in Middle-earth and our real Earth). Those interested in pursuing the "vast game" (Tolkien's term!) spot these problems quickly, and may even become frustrated at Tolkien's apparent lack of attention to consistency, cause and effect, and history in this regard.

Squire http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=824821#824821 - part of the subthread thread about game-like details versus other interests that I mentioned earlier


--
* Now I'm imaging the poor Rider frantically rolling dice (to get the score required in the game rules to work the ferry) while all the other players laugh & see if there is any beer and pizza left - pretty much what the hobbits do do next, in fact. Smile

Darn, now I've visualized the wrong Ferry:

Maybe under that cowl is just a jealous guy? Get your own ring, mate!(larger image here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Ferry)

~~~~~~

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 13 2015, 9:39pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 13 2015, 10:37pm

Post #11 of 119 (3602 views)
Shortcut
the chief investigator revealed [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
'Where is he?' said Frodo, looking round, as if he expected a masked and sinister figure to come out of a cupboard.


See! I told you Sam was Batman!

~~~~~~

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


cats16
Half-elven


Jan 13 2015, 11:02pm

Post #12 of 119 (3598 views)
Shortcut
Ack, somehow two weeks behind. [In reply to] Can't Post

Hoping to catch up some tonight.



Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




a.s.
Valinor


Jan 13 2015, 11:26pm

Post #13 of 119 (3595 views)
Shortcut
based on the Ribble ferry [In reply to] Can't Post

 
It is said (boy, even writing that sounds like a myth, huh?) that Tolkien based this part of his landscape on the area of the River Ribble in Lancashire. I have never been there and don't know, but it is very easy to find multiple references to this online (just Google River Ribble Tolkien or similar).


At the risk of being a one-note Nellie, we had a previous discussion about the ferry in the 2007 chapter discussion, and Far From Home found an illustration of the old ferry boat, which is also seen here on this web site (scroll way down). The ferry was known as the Hacking Ferry, and it appears similar in size and shape to the very sketchy illustration Tolkien made for LOTR. I can't send a picture of that illustration due to copyright (I assume, don't want to risk it anyhow) but it is found in Hammond and Scull's "Tolkien: Artist and Illustrator" as image number 146. I don't find it a very clear picture, though.


I can see there is a hobbit sized being standing on one end of the flat bottomed boat, using a pole to maneuver across a narrow river. If I squint and use my imagination.


a,s,

"an seileachan"


"A safe fairyland is untrue to all worlds." JRR Tolkien, Letters.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 13 2015, 11:45pm

Post #14 of 119 (3585 views)
Shortcut
thanks! [In reply to] Can't Post

The ferry in the Dinckley Trail web page has a pole that seems to be attached to the boat with a rowlock- like device. I suppose that might mean you could use a pole that was too long (and therefore too heavy) to lift out of the water as is done when punting. I'm imagining that if the pole starts in the rowlock, the weight of it is supported by the boat. And that would mean being able to pole a boat across deeper water.

~~~~~~

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 13 2015, 11:47pm)


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Jan 13 2015, 11:52pm

Post #15 of 119 (3581 views)
Shortcut
Thanks for the links, a.s. [In reply to] Can't Post

Though that photo doesn't look anything like the ferry my imagination had all picked out...Wink


Tollers, Lewis said to Tolkien, there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.



squire
Half-elven


Jan 13 2015, 11:53pm

Post #16 of 119 (3601 views)
Shortcut
"Wait! what's that noise?" "I don't hear anything..." "In the cupboard! Someone's in the cupboard!" "Nonsense old bean, you're imagining things. Have a drink." [In reply to] Can't Post

I wonder where the image of a "masked and sinister figure in the cupboard" comes from, in terms of hobbit culture? We readers get that Tolkien is making fun of pulp spy fiction from the 19th and early 20th century. But who in the Shire would think of a 'spy', not as a small-town snitch or eavesdropper or peeping tom, but as a full-fledged bandit, mask and all? This unlikely turn of speech on the narrator's part, conveying Frodo's thoughts, ultimately suggests that the Shire has a ripe literary culture (dramatics seem too outlandish to contemplate) of which there are very few other signs in the story at all.

I sometimes think this entire 'conspiracy' subplot, starting with Sam's episode in Chapter 2 and ending more or less here (but picked up faintly in the Bree chapters, too), are one of Tolkien's weaker and less original inventions. We know from HoME that he self-edited fairly well, given some of the nonsense we see in the abandoned first drafts (especially in these early chapters), but the underbrush is thick indeed and sometimes he seems to have just let it slide rather than rethink and recompose.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jan 14 2015, 12:08am

Post #17 of 119 (3590 views)
Shortcut
I suppose that there might have been spies [In reply to] Can't Post

Careless talk and all that. Or possibly the bogeyman as this is a fairytale at this stage! Things are getting a bit more serious now, as we hear later, birds might be listening and all that.


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 14 2015, 1:33am

Post #18 of 119 (3618 views)
Shortcut
Merry's ideal adventuring background [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

The Conspiracy: that was a nice surprise to find out that Merry knew what was going on, and that theyd all been in the know for quite some time, with Sam as the ringleader. Some of the weight came off Frodos shoulders knowing he wouldnt have to say goodbye to his friends nor face the scary unknown alone.





Yes I agree here, completely. That setup of Buckland with menace at its border, and the background we get of the Brandybucks as a slightly cracked bunch of Hobbits (crossed the river! Go through the Hedge! BOATS!) sets Merry apart a bit from the others, even Pippin. Pippin is the ever-child, and yet Merry is somehow still clearly a Hobbit but world-wise beyond normal Hobbit experience from day 1.








Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 14 2015, 1:46am

Post #19 of 119 (3581 views)
Shortcut
I would agree [In reply to] Can't Post

I do think the dream references Frodo's longing for the Sea, and thus West. Prophesying his need for healing. What I find a fascinating overlap is that the tower by the Sea is one he has never seen: likely the Tower of Elostirion, west of the Shire; and as he writes in The Road Goes Ever On, Gildor may have been returning from that very Tower on pilgrimage.

The dream was reworked - thanks for the details - so I love the eventual connection between the dream's Tower (if that's where it is) and what may have been in Gildor's mind as he came from that place. Part of the magic of speaking with Elves by the fire; maybe gifted by Gildor? Or a completely unintended eye-of-the mind conferred by the proximity of the Ring?

Thank you for NZStrider's link! A pleasure to read. I don't remember seeing it before.


Swordwhale also wrote a piece last year about Sea-Longing

"The Sea Longing" by Swordwhale








Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 14 2015, 1:50am

Post #20 of 119 (3572 views)
Shortcut
Yes! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
The overwhelming sense I get in this chapter, particularly, is of Merry's competence, in pretty much everything he takes on. He's one who watches, listens, makes connections, explores... and when the time comes to act, he knows just what to do and how to accomplish it. Looking ahead in the stories, it's setting up the challenge for him of letting go of those he sees as his 'charges', particularly Pippin, so they may grow in leadership as well.





So true; Merry is the more world-hardened of the Hobbits by his rather outlandish (by Shire standards) upbringing. He has a deeper sense of danger and that things CAN be evil in the world, due to the Hedge and what lies beyond it.


I always felt proud of Merry: for his competence, leadership and loyalty certainly - though they are all loyal, something about Merry has always made me especially fond of him.








Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 14 2015, 1:53am

Post #21 of 119 (3566 views)
Shortcut
*This* is quite brilliant [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote

Not sure how Japanese poetry Samurai Sam is as yet, given that we see he keeps going back to mundane thoughts - he'd be like:

The cherry blossom
In Mr Frodo's garden -
Looks real untidy


Perfect. Cool

Exactly what I was thinking - that brush with Elves and the high air of the Firstborn swirls over a firmly tilled garden bed of Hobbity sense.








Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 14 2015, 1:58am

Post #22 of 119 (3570 views)
Shortcut
A gradient of worldliness [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I must say that I felt that Farmer Maggot was a harder version of Hobbits than those of Hobbiton which we meet firstly in the tale. Merry continues this trend. Maggot keeps dogs, is tough with trespassers etc. Merry is also probably more aware of things happening outside the Shire or at the least on its borders than Frodo and Sam might be. One thing I have wondered about Farmer Maggot was that whilst we know that he has actually met Tom Bombadil and is even on frequent, friendly terms with him, had he also met Strider or if not him one of the Rangers and aware of their existence and role? They did have similar jobs in similar places after all!!





Yes, it is a trend. Funny though that Maggot is so canny about the dangers that seem to be lurking...in the gradient sense Merry would be the world-wiser if we go in a linear fashion (being the most distant and closest to The Outside World). But then that ring o' mushrooms at Maggot's makes me wonder: if Maggot and his wisdom are a zone all their own, like Tom.


The two of them trekking to meet feels like two Middle-earth folksy potentates. Cool


As for Rangers, I'm not sure of Maggot would have met them...if he had, I wonder if he might have a bit of wisdom to see past Strider's hedge-riven clothes? I should bet yes myself, even with the Hobbit-countryman's insularity, and even if not 100% in the know.








(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 14 2015, 1:58am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 14 2015, 2:07am

Post #23 of 119 (3609 views)
Shortcut
Some random Ferry DM-ing... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It seems quite a well-established crossing - someone has nicely maintained the path down to it (bollards, no less!) and there are lamps alight there, suggesting night-time travellers are common enough to make it worthwhile illuminating the landing area. But it seems to be self-service (at this time and season, of course - there could be a ferryman who operates it for some hours and lights the lamps at the end of his or her shift).
Merry is mentioned pushing of with a pole, but I'm supposing the ferry is not a punt (in which the craft is propelled by pushing the pole against the river bed). My reason for guessing this is that punting only works - for fairly obvious reasons - in shallow water, and all the more so if the punt pole has to be handled by a 3-4 foot hobbit. A river shallow enough for a hobbit to punt across probably wouldn't be the sort of obstacle to a horseman that would require the horse to swim (which is what Frodo and Merry discuss later). So I'm imagining the river is pretty deep, and that the pole is for starting and for fending off.



For myself, I do see Merry punting. The relative depth if a horse is to swim wouldn't be as relative I think as the bank: 'on the other side, the bank was steep...' (3rd par.)

From a practical standpoint, that's the part that negates the horse jumping in: he won't be able to get out. So I could see the river being rather shallow, and slow-moving. And wide enough to slowly pole over, and give Sam enough time to regret adventuring for a second (like Bilbo missing his kettle - more of Sam inheriting Bilbo's literary heritage!)



When they get to the other bank, Merry ties the ferry up. This sounds like it is done very calmly - standard operating procedure rather than a an unusual anti-pursuit step (to prevent the Rider they have seen behind them hauling the ferry back to the other bank again and so getting across). But if it is the standard thing you do it seems rather odd when you think about it - any law-abiding hobbit traveller coming to the West (Marish) bank and hoping to get across is now stranded.
There is the odd detail that no boats are left on the west bank: dead handy now of course, but I wonder why that might be the custom? Surely the Bucklanders are not expecting an invasion from the Shire? Or mushroom rustlers, perhaps?
Wink

Well, from the Buckland viewpoint, the world is a bit dicier! But from a practical viewpoint, if Buckland feared attack from the Hobbiton side the ferry would have been left on Buckland's shore surely? It almost seems that in its default state, this particular ferry is in the open-door position. Or is it due to Merry - rather local royalty, as it were - having crossed and being entrusted with the ferry workings?









(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 14 2015, 2:08am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 14 2015, 2:14am

Post #24 of 119 (3543 views)
Shortcut
"Masked and sinister'... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I wonder where the image of a "masked and sinister figure in the cupboard" comes from, in terms of hobbit culture? We readers get that Tolkien is making fun of pulp spy fiction from the 19th and early 20th century. But who in the Shire would think of a 'spy', not as a small-town snitch or eavesdropper or peeping tom, but as a full-fledged bandit, mask and all? This unlikely turn of speech on the narrator's part, conveying Frodo's thoughts, ultimately suggests that the Shire has a ripe literary culture (dramatics seem too outlandish to contemplate) of which there are very few other signs in the story at all.

I sometimes think this entire 'conspiracy' subplot, starting with Sam's episode in Chapter 2 and ending more or less here (but picked up faintly in the Bree chapters, too), are one of Tolkien's weaker and less original inventions. We know from HoME that he self-edited fairly well, given some of the nonsense we see in the abandoned first drafts (especially in these early chapters), but the underbrush is thick indeed and sometimes he seems to have just let it slide rather than rethink and recompose.








reminds me strikingly of the 1920's - 30's era of popular Detective Fiction. I can see JRRT here using a bit of tropism as a bit of laughter at someone like Christie or Marsh (or particularly Sayers, whom I note by the time "Gaudy Night" was published and after reading it he quite despised her direction in the Wimsey series).








(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 14 2015, 2:18am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 14 2015, 2:16am

Post #25 of 119 (3543 views)
Shortcut
I feel ya, Cats [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Hoping to catch up some tonight.






And when we are this chatty it gets hard to catch up!







First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.