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** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' chapter discussion: "A Conspiracy Unmasked" **
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Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 15 2015, 10:46pm

Post #101 of 119 (886 views)
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Excellent connect! // [In reply to] Can't Post


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Aragorn says soemthing of this, IIRC....And he expands on this 'linguistic joke' when he calls Sam; not half-wise, but full-wise, in Book Six of LotR.









Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 15 2015, 10:48pm

Post #102 of 119 (895 views)
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And potentially no night shift. [In reply to] Can't Post


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Maybe as it was so late, the ferryman had knocked off for the day and left the watercraft there. I don't recall Frodo saying he planned to meet Merry here, but given their surprise at doing so (Ignoring the tension created by the mystery) perhaps this is another happy coincidence like their 'long-cut' through the forest?

Of course, now I have to ask... Where was the ferryman, and why did he leave his craft there?

Possible explanation are that he went to a local tavern (How far is the Perch?), or he slept at a relative's home. As to the 'why' of leaving it, I speculate he knew no one on that side of the River would touch it, or had an agreement with Merry to leave it for their use.








In a culture so in touch with comfort, I see the knocking-off-and-going-to-the-pub option as a likely one.








Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea


Jan 15 2015, 11:13pm

Post #103 of 119 (1472 views)
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Exactly! [In reply to] Can't Post

Lovely green growing things that protect me and mine. And tell everyone what is mine... or ours... not them or theirs. Them is "out there", ours is "in here".

Since Tolkien's Hobbits reflected gentrified England, it makes sense that he would pick a time in history for his Hobbits that reflects the time after the Enclosure Act, where "order" was established in nature but before the industrialization that mucked it up. Interesting though that the hedges sent people into the factory towns to work because they lost their land. Tolkien's Middle Earth really was a fantasy.

.

ITLs don't get enough FAS. :)

Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings






CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 15 2015, 11:41pm

Post #104 of 119 (888 views)
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Amazing link [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we're all thinking of cute, thin suburban hedges. And even in the countryside, where brushy growth occurs at boundaries, it's more nuisance than structural barrier. But those layered, woven hedges you linked to were serious barriers.

I suppose they'd be more liability than help if there was an attack during a drought and they could easily be set on fire, but the Shire seems to never suffer from anything like droughts.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Jan 15 2015, 11:44pm

Post #105 of 119 (879 views)
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Aw, shucks, Brethil. ;) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Tollers, Lewis said to Tolkien, there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.



CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 15 2015, 11:57pm

Post #106 of 119 (884 views)
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Speaking of criminals... [In reply to] Can't Post

The description of Buckland says:


Quote
The Bucklanders kept their doors locked after dark, and that also was not usual in the Shire.

Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 99). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.


They have a hedge-wall, and we're debating its effectiveness. Why did they lock their doors? Were there ruffians creeping in from the Old Forest? Were there bad hobbits on the loose? Or were there pesky animals like raccoons that they needed to keep out?


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jan 16 2015, 12:03am

Post #107 of 119 (899 views)
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What do you make of life in Brandy Hall? [In reply to] Can't Post

Crickhollow is described as:


Quote
It had been built a long while before by the Brandybucks, for the use of guests, or members of the family that wished to escape from the crowded life of Brandy Hall for a time.

Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 100). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

Was life in Brandy Hall a little too communal if people needed a special refuge from it? If life was crowded, why didn't the wealthy and industrious Brandybucks make Brandy Hall more livable? Did the Tooks have a similar escape home from the Great Smials?


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Jan 16 2015, 1:13am

Post #108 of 119 (911 views)
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Perhaps once every generation or so [In reply to] Can't Post

the Brandybucks produced the odd introvert who just needed to be alone.


(Not that introverts are all odd, of course. Just some of us. Angelic)




In Reply To

Crickhollow is described as:




Quote


It had been built a long while before by the Brandybucks, for the use of guests, or members of the family that wished to escape from the crowded life of Brandy Hall for a time.

Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 100). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.




Was life in Brandy Hall a little too communal if people needed a special refuge from it? If life was crowded, why didn't the wealthy and industrious Brandybucks make Brandy Hall more livable? Did the Tooks have a similar escape home from the Great Smials?



Tollers, Lewis said to Tolkien, there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.



Starling
Half-elven


Jan 16 2015, 6:10am

Post #109 of 119 (874 views)
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Just breaking out of RR lurkdom to say [In reply to] Can't Post

how much I have enjoyed the hedge conversation in this thread.
The hedgelaying link was very interesting, and it is good to see there are people dedicated to preserving such an important practice.
And yes, 'through a hedge backwards' is international, at least, it is used in New Zealand. Luckily I never literally experienced this, since the hedges of my farm childhood were mostly gorse.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 16 2015, 10:22am

Post #110 of 119 (867 views)
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Burning down the Hedge [In reply to] Can't Post

(You can imagine this post having a Simple Minds soundtrack if you like.)

I think it's nice to be able to conclude that the hedge is both hobbit-appropriate (working with the land by growing and tending something, rather than trying to dominate it with a macho wall) and potentially a significant obstacle. It might give Generals Bradley, Patton & Montgomery pause for thought. (If anyone reading this hasn't seen the subthread started by Mendelor about hedges as an obstacle to tanks after D-Day, I recommend it: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=826751#826751 )

I would expect that a well-tended hedge would root deeply after a while - this seems to have been a good part of the problem facing Allied armoured forces in Normandy (and on a couple of occasions when I've wanted to dig out privet bushes, I've found it a really tough job). Not only would the deep, tangled roots make it difficult to knock the hedge over or tunnel under it, but it would also keep the hedge green through all but the worst droughts - and therefore hard to set light to. I suppose the hobbits might have to water the hedge at least while it got established -but there are rivers nearby for water, and hobbits like tending growing things. Or, if the lie of the land was right, they might get their land to drain via ditches along the hedge line (a common practice on farms round where I live). That would also provide an automatic irrigation system (as well as a minor water obstacle to add to the defences). Besides, I imagine an English climate for the Shire - with serious drought a rarity.

A substantial fire would of course do serious damage once it took hold: damage that would take some years to regrow. I expect that is why, when we come to Bonfire Glade in the next chapter, we find it is some way off from the hedge - the hobbits had been careful to keep the fire well away from their hedge.

I'm also thinking that the hedge would become a thick woven tangle of wood above ground a well as below, and that would take some time to burn down. That's an important factor both for the chances of putting out an accidental fire, and also if we're imagining some attacker deliberately firing it to get through. I think it would be some time before the gap in the hedge burned down enough to become negotiable for such an attacker - unless you have a dragon or balrog, perhaps, but then I'm not playing! And since the Bucklanders would be bound to notice that the hedge was on fire, it would give them some time to organize an evacuation or a defence. Unless the attackers can set fire to the hedge along a good stretch of it, they would also be giving a fairly clear indication of where the attack would come.

Nor would I think it was all that clever to start a large fire right next to a forest in which I presumably have stationed my own troops (with a little unfortunate behaviour by the wind I could easily set fire to the forest, with my troops in it).

However, I don't think this full-on military invasion scenario is what the hedge is for (though, as you can probably tell, I've had some fun thinking about it for a while). The hobbits, I think, want to keep out various kinds of unspecified creepy weirdness from the forest itself: or something like the wolves who were the last attackers of the Shire (but who didn't need to breach the hedge, as they came over the river after it froze).

So the hobbits are not trying to fortify Buckland or the Sire against, say, Azog and his army. I suppose that such an army would have the option of going around the hedge in any case, if it and the forest are inconvenient to march through. Most of the time, I expect a stout hedge is as much as psychological relief as a practical military defence. But it wouldn't work for psychological relief if any hobbit-child or stray animal could force a way through - as an agricultural people, hobbits know their field boundaries, and have made a reassuringly substantial one rather than a silly one, I think.

~~~~~~

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 16 2015, 1:53pm

Post #111 of 119 (859 views)
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Doors locked - against the nameless eldrich horrors of the outside world [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the line about the Bucklanders locking their doors (and this not being a practice common in the "mainland" Shire) helps us to see that we're moving to the frontier. In Hobbiton the outside world can largely be ignored, or accommodated as "funny folk": it's too real in Buckland.

I don't know whether a Bucklander could tell you against what he or she was locking their doors - maybe its a general and unspecific precaution and psychological relief.

If it was a rational action we'd have to assume that the householders are trying to keep out something that can and would manage an unlocked but closed door.

Or maybe:


Quote
Jane, we've talked about this! You can't keep walking into our flat uninvited this is not an American sitcom!
Steve, Coupling, a British sitcom


~~~~~~

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 16 2015, 10:35pm

Post #112 of 119 (858 views)
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Oooo, more Hedge Talk [In reply to] Can't Post

I think that the type of hedge would make a difference too: the Yew type (Taxus) or the privet (Ligustrum) type. I have had both. Yews bear the bright red berries (toxic to humans) and are needleleaf evergreens: and they really stay green, and hold a lot of fluid even in the winter. They don't take to 'shearing' as well, and will form a ball-like growth of outer thickness with skeletal, defoliated inner structures unless new-growth pruning cuts are made to the center. Theoretically, I think they would burn easier if the center was defoliated by shearing, and shearing would create 'holes' easier as well.


Privet take VERY well to shearing. They would form the thicker hedge that I think JRRT had in mind - I think. In truth, I should love to know which plant he had in mind. From pics like the ones a.s. posted, the high hedges look like Privet to me. They are a small oval-leaf evergreen - but in my experience they get a bit 'drier' in winter and in wind/drought stress. I wonder if they would overall burn easier than Yew (never tried it!).


Root wise, privets and Yew are heck to remove. And they regrow from a root segment, often very fast. I agree with Meneldor's machines, they would be needed to remove an old-growth stand in a hurry.


So with that in mind, that privet-hedge, sheared and thickened, would be an effective barrier. UNTIL the first holes are broken through, or the first hole is burned through. In which case since we know the Nine don't care much, for fire, that threat wouldn't apply. Orcs though - who as Legolas observes, crush the green and growing things just for sport, whether they are in the way or not - might really ENJOY hacking a hedge to bits.


Picture the horticultural devastation wreaked upon the Shire in not very much time: much can be destroyed, centuries worth of growth, in the blink of an eye. But you can replace it. You just need time, and either some nurturing or at the very least the absence of destructive elements. Or a Gardener, preferably with Lorien magic at hand.


I wonder how the Hedge fared during the Shire overrun period? We, like the Fox, never hear any more about it. In my heart, as much as JRRT loved such things, I wonder if it was damaged...but grew back stronger and more lush than ever.








(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 16 2015, 10:36pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 17 2015, 12:34am

Post #113 of 119 (855 views)
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Some thoughts back, Darkstone [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Together with that pale, that white-fac'd shore,
Whose foot spurns back the ocean's roaring tides
And coops from other lands her islanders,
Even till that England, hedg'd in with the main,
That water-walled bulwark, still secure
And confident from foreign purposes

-William Shakespeare, The Life and Death of King John, Act II, scene 1


HEGEMONY! Laugh Clearly. I am surprised no hedges feature in 'Rule Brittania'.



Frodo grew up in Brandy Hall; so it is revisiting a childhood stomping ground for him. What do you think his thoughts may have been, crossing the River?
All things come into being by conflict of opposites, and the sum of things flows like a stream.
-Heraclitus of Ephesus
Plus the fates of his parents.


Perfect quote. And I do think there has to be an element of the bittersweet for him; he's had a good life but that River is not the hallmark of happiness for Frodo. Leave it to Tolkien as having lost parents to make a luminal space the place of parental death.




I like the impression of Merry here: as The Ferryman. Does it build on what we have seen of Merry so far, or present new information?
He is the intelligent, resourceful, ever-ready second-in-command.
As an exercise, consider the phrase Merry the Ferryman and collapse it to Merryman.
Interestiingly enough, among the original Merrymen only four were initially named. Robin Hood was the leader, though most of his Merry Men could and did whup him; Little John was Robins second in command, intelligent and resourceful; Will Scarlet was the youngest and a family relation to Robin; and finally Much the Millers Son, so called because his parents referred to him as "our son, though he's not much", was a capable fighter and strong enough to carry the ironically named Little John on his back.
Hmmm Who all does that group of four remind me of.



Goodness. That's an eye-opener, and no mistake. Shocked I think we chatted a lot on RH influences - the Medieval RH tales - while discussing Turin's band.


A note of interest: in the original drafts, the Brandywine Bridge was twenty miles from the Ferry; in the revised 50th Anniversary Editions, the distance is shortened to ten due to JRRT changing the size of Buckland. Does the original twenty miles make more sense in terms of delay, or does ten still work?
A horse can travel around 5 miles per hour. (Of course basic equestrian trained 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien would know that.) So we have the Black Rider getting from one ferry landing to the other side via the Brandywine Bridge in four rather than eight hours.


I found this doubly interesting as CT mentions JRRT never noted the distance change when he revised the size of Buckland. I think had he realized it, he may have stayed with 20, and made sure the Hobbits had time to have their quiet evening, Frodo to sleep and dream and the Hedge choice be made by the knowledge of imminent yet conveniently (and calculably) delayed pursuit.



Or something else?
There are many types of hobbits. The next type of hobbit well meet is a Stoor. And of course in the Appendices Sam will miraculously metamorphisize from a Harfoot into a Fallohide! (Ah, historical revisionism!)

Indeed that metamorphosis pays for the lot! (I INVENTED 'em, I'm gonna USE 'em. Wink )




What are your thoughts on that Buckland safety feature, the Hedge?
Aka, the High Hay.
Well, theres The Romance of the Rose:

That it was May, thus dreamed me,
In time of love and jollity
That all things ginneth waxen gay
For there is neither busk nor hay
In May, that it nil shrouded been
And it with new leves wreen.
Guillaume de Lorris and Jean de Meun, Le Roman de la Rose, translation by Geoffrey Chaucer .
I dreamed that it was May, the season of love and joy, when everything rejoices, for one sees neither bush nor hedge that would not deck itself for May in a covering of new leaves.
-Translation by Frances Horgan

Of course The Hedge is every bit as much a safety barrier for the Shire as The Channel is for England.

(You think the "tunnel that dived deep under the Hedge and came out in the hollow on the other side" was known as "The Hunnel"?)


And on the other side they have a wee bit of a carnival, serving Hunnel cake. Cool






And yet, that the Brandybucks cross into the Old Forest 'when the fit takes them'?

In Bush-life in Queensland : or, John West's Colonial Experiences (1881), A.C. Grant uses this rather patronizing phrase to describe inscrutable (by Europeans) behavior by the natives.
What with Sams thoughts while crossing the river, following The Red Book conceit, one might take this condescending phrase as something added by the provincial Samwise.



I like this interpretation. The Brandybucks have that country-gentry feel, from the provincial point if view. Scotch Gentry, or maybe Welsh, in a way, rather on-the-fly and motives a bit inscrutable by the Hobbiton salt o' the earth; and a bit on the wild side as well. Those Brandybucks are a bit hard to trammel, after all. Unless you are a hedge.




Frodo's feelings upon learning about The Conspiracy: "Sam!" cried Frodo, feeling that amazement could go no further, and quite unable to decide whether he felt angry, amused, relieved or merely foolish.
Does the advice of Gildor bear fruit here, and maybe give more weight and purpose (authorial or character) to the conversation Frodo has with Gildor by the fire?


...I also advise this: do not go alone. Take such friends as are trusty and willing.
One wonders if advice from Elves is wisdom or prophecy? Then again:
Well maybe the *real* God uses tricks, you know? Maybe he's not omnipotent. He's just been around so long he knows everything.
-Groundhog Day (1993)
Maybe Elves have been around so long that wisdom=prophecy. No wonder theyre loathe to dispense it!


Very true. That bit about the Witch-king that Glorfindel shared, certainly had its share of use and misinterpretation.



The house at Crickhollow sounds quite adorable to us, the reader; it seems quite as comforting as a home should be.
I seem to remember carrock/corrog as being the same as crick, but probably not.
BTW, crick is from the Norse kriki, which means that Tolkien deliberately modeled hobbits on those lousy stinking, yellow, horrible, despicable, animalistic, warmongering, slimy, black hearted, atrocity-filled, spam-loving Vikings! Shame!



Oh, I forgot to reference that Letter, where JRRT says 'the mortar in Crickhollow was of the blood of innocents'. Arrrr!!!!!!...oh, those naughty Vikings.Unsure CLEAR evidence of influence, I dare say.
We know how influential the Vikings were on the English: as Dave Barry says, due to high thatch concentration and general roof flammability, that influence was to be seen in the English becoming very damp. As well as oppressed.





It must have been a temptation then, to want to stay ... Frodo certainly has that thought. Is this homely little place like a last temptation (or maybe the first of many?) before trekking into the danger of the World, for all the Hobbits?
One would think of this as the first temptation of Samwise, followed a second at The Doors of Durin and a third at the Mirror of Galadriel. A rather interesting progression.
But maybe not that much a temptation, as Samwise might be a bit uncomfortable with all the relative opulence.



Yes, in truth the 'first of many' was my take; on Frodo as well as Sam. But one must follow the other: the only temptation to hold Sam would likely be a temptation that held Frodo, and only that (so temptation by proxy). Sam's own temptation sent by the Ring (and thus a powerful one it was) Sam overcame on his own, quite alone. But if Frodo fell to safe and cozy Crickhollow, then Sam will never go forth again. So if it is over-opulent for Sam, it is thankfully not so for Frodo. In which - as you point out as well - the reminders of familial obligation may have served well here. The pity of Bilbo may well affect the fates of many, as does his taste in knickknaks, my boy Gandalf may well have said.



I would like to discuss that symbolic dream of Frodo's at Crickhollow:
What do you make of this dream?


Seems to be two visions, one from the Tower of Isengard, and the other from the one of the three towers of Emyn Beraid. (Im guessing the tallest, Elostirion.)
Which seems to mean Frodo is somehow able to access the Orthanc-stone and the Elostirion-stone. Given that he is able to access the visions of The Seat of Seeing while Aragorn is not, the only thing in common would seem to be the possession (and in the latter case, the wearing) of the One Ring. In which case, who knows who else may be dreaming?


I think for myself it is Elostirion. Thus I included the info on Gildor's pilgrimage. It seems an uncanny overlap to me.


Great to see you Darkstone, as always. Cool









(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 17 2015, 12:41am)


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 17 2015, 12:50am

Post #114 of 119 (851 views)
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Brandy Hall thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Crickhollow is described as:


Quote
It had been built a long while before by the Brandybucks, for the use of guests, or members of the family that wished to escape from the crowded life of Brandy Hall for a time.

Tolkien, J.R.R. (2012-02-15). The Lord of the Rings: One Volume (p. 100). Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Kindle Edition.

Was life in Brandy Hall a little too communal if people needed a special refuge from it? If life was crowded, why didn't the wealthy and industrious Brandybucks make Brandy Hall more livable? Did the Tooks have a similar escape home from the Great Smials?





Well that 'independent kingdom' bit of Brandy hall, with its endless CONNECTED tunnels may be the thing. I think Hobbits are generally as happy as sparrows to roost and twitter about each other in a party sense, but that having one's own little Hole at the end of the night is a blessing. The Brandybuck's seem to have made the Hobbit equivalent of a family compound and that may grate upon nerves I presume, especially in a bunch so independent minded as the Brandybucks.
So that 'lodge' is almost like a cultural reversion maybe?: an instinctive need for quiet and some solitude, replacing the 'to each his own' living in a small segment within the larger Palatial setup of Brandy Hall?
Makes me wonder how Smagol's folk lived: his grandmother was a fine Matriarch: did they all room together, or have separate burrows?








noWizardme
Half-elven


Jan 17 2015, 9:20am

Post #115 of 119 (844 views)
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privet investigations [In reply to] Can't Post

Which gives us a Dire Straits soundtrack (unless I've goofed again: "Burning Down The Hedge" ought to have been Talking Heads: "Don't Yew Forget About Me" is Simple Minds. Elementary mistake. Apologies for the confusion).

Really, I ought to remember Talking Heads, after an incident in 1986 when I asked a girl out just as the DJ started to play "We're On The Road To Nowhere". Thanks for the help guys.....

Anyway- it's fun to see how different readers imagine this hedge. I'm not sure whether to think of it as something very monocultural (privet, or yew or some other single species all the way): the kind of thing you'd find in a formal garden. The alternative is to think of it more like a well-established country hedge. Those start with a base of whatever is planted, of course, but tend to acquire an extra species every few years, as creatures drop seeds etc. A lot of old hedges were ripped out (presumably with difficulty) in the middle part of the twentieth century, as farmers wanted larger fields for a more mechanized kind of farming. That became a conservation concern: not only were the old hedges bio-diverse long thin woodlands, but they functioned as wildlife corridors, allowing woodlands species to move between larger chunks of woodland. I'm not sure whether any of those issues would have been in Tolkiens mind as he wrote this hedge. So I think I'll just hedge my bets for now.

BTW: I think it's going ok with the girl in the disco, Talking Heads notwithstanding: we had our silver wedding anniversary this year.

~~~~~~

"nowim I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


sador
Half-elven


Jan 18 2015, 3:08pm

Post #116 of 119 (814 views)
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Late answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo grew up in Brandy Hall; so it is revisiting a childhood stomping ground for him. What do you think his thoughts may have been, crossing the River?
Well, if Tolkien wanted us to know, he would have told us, hadn't he?
As a matter of fact, this is one of the very few cases in FotR in which Tolkien deliberately gives us another characters' thoughts rather than Frodo's.

But Frodo is not going to Buckland; just passing through. Thoughts of Bilbo are more likely at the moment - or even of his parents.

Why might that be, and what do you think about Sam's musings as they cross?

Often, Tolkien provides us with the POV of the weakest member of the group - see the otherwise inexplicable chosing of Pippin for The Uruk-hai and Treebeard and Gimli for The Passing of the Grey Company. It increases the reader's sense of awe and wonder.

I like the impression of Merry here: as The Ferryman. Does it build on what we have seen of Merry so far, or present new information?

Whoa! The Ferryman? Well, it does fit with Sam's impressions. Nice observation!

Merry is on his home turf, and naturally taking charge. But I agree that he is the most competent of the hobbits.
According to my profile page, he is also my favourite hobbit.

The idea of the Riders not being able to cross running water; not an idea that JRRT ultimately found sustainable due to geographical issues. Would you like that idea or is it too overused?

Sunlight, water, fire... what do these Nazgul like?

Does the original twenty miles make more sense in terms of delay, or does ten still work?

As far as I understand, the twenty miles is a simple mistake of JRRT, in the sense that it contradicts the map. The discrepancy was pointed out, and at last corrected.
See the fifth catergory in NEB's post.

morphing Baranduin to Brandywine; don't; you love how JRRT can sketch the evolution of names through cultures and across time?
It was the other way round, of course: he began with the rather silly joke of Brandywine, and then created the elvish 'source'.
This worked very well - but then he had to spoil it all in appendix F.
See questions N to_P.

Do you think JRRT wanted to represent Hobbits in stages of worldliness, to advance the level of peril or is it related to characterization of Merry? Or something else?
I'm not quite sure. It clearly means a stepping up of the tension and peril.

What are your thoughts on that Buckland safety feature, the Hedge?
It seems quite effective against the Forest itself - which in its turn is a defense against other threats.

And yet, that the Brandybucks cross into the Old Forest 'when the fit takes them'?
Lobelia was perfectly out them.
I'm sure if the Gaffer knew all this, he would never agree to Sam's going. A year later, Rosie will say there were rumours that Sam got lost in the Old Forest.

Does Merry's years of silence and watchfulness, listening and planning change your view of Hobbits; or is it just more of a surprise that Merry was up to all this?
No; it just shows how resourceful Merry is.
But also that Bilbo couldn't really keep a secret. It's a good thing nobody suspected he had the Arkenstone.

Does the advice of Gildor bear fruit here, and maybe give more weight and purpose (authorial or character) to the conversation Frodo has with Gildor by the fire?
It shows that he can't trust Sam, of course.
And I never got it clear - what information id Sam actually collect? Especially if he dried up immediately after being caught?

Is this homely little place like a last temptation (or maybe the first of many?) before trekking into the danger of the World, for all the Hobbits?
For Pippin, especially.

And you never asked about his bath-song. It nearly beats Ernie's classic:

Quote

Rubber duckie, you're the one
You make bath-time so much fun.



Sam is revealed as the Chief Conspirator: how do you see this piece of surprising (to Frodo, and likely the reader) news?
Not chief conspirator! Chief investigator.

And what do you think of Sam's actions and decisions during the time before the trip began; first sharing info and then 'drying up'?
As noted above, I never understood just how that worked.

What do you make of this dream?
It is Elostirion for sure.
In the section about the kingdom of Arnor in appendix A, there is a footnote about the palantir in Elostirion; and Tolkien gives in parentheses two references; one of them is to this dream.
So clearly, that's how JRRT understood this dream at the time he compiled the appendices, and there is no reason to think he changed his mind afterwards (of course, when he wrote this chapter he had no idea of the existence of the palantiri or the Tower Hills).

Thank you, Brethil, for this week's discussion!


sador
Half-elven


Jan 18 2015, 5:52pm

Post #117 of 119 (807 views)
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Same old scene. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 19 2015, 2:38am

Post #118 of 119 (801 views)
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Thoughts back [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I like the impression of Merry here: as The Ferryman. Does it build on what we have seen of Merry so far, or present new information?
Whoa! The Ferryman? Well, it does fit with Sam's impressions. Nice observation! Thank you!
Merry is on his home turf, and naturally taking charge. But I agree that he is the most competent of the hobbits.
According to my profile page, he is also my favourite hobbit.
In truth, as much as I can say I love Frodo dearly, Merry is my favorite too.





The idea of the Riders not being able to cross running water; not an idea that JRRT ultimately found sustainable due to geographical issues. Would you like that idea or is it too overused?

Sunlight, water, fire... what do these Nazgul like?
Hmm, dark and ... dark. With some dark mixed in. But if you add a touch of damp too, well then they clearly like the same things mushrooms do. Hark. I sense another conspiracy.








Does the original twenty miles make more sense in terms of delay, or does ten still work?

As far as I understand, the twenty miles is a simple mistake of JRRT, in the sense that it contradicts the map. The discrepancy was pointed out, and at last corrected.
See the fifth catergory in NEB's post.

What I found interesting in the 'error' is wondering that if JRRT found out about it himself, would he have changed the cardinal length of the hedge and thus the length of Buckland or would he have changed the mileage?
I found where Christopher Tolkien discusses it in 'The Return of the Shadow': (obviously discussing many writes and rewrites, as we begin with 'Bingo':)
The great hedge is still something over forty miles from end to end. In answer to Bingos question Can horses cross the river? Merry answers: They can go fifteen miles to Brandywine Bridge, with 20? pencilled over fifteen. In FR the High Hay is well over twenty miles from end to end, yet Merry still says: They can go twenty miles north to Brandywine Bridge. Barbara Strachey (Journeys of Frodo, Map 6) points out this difficulty, and assumes that Merry meant 20 miles in all - 10 miles north to the Bridge and 10 miles south on the other side; but this is to strain the language: Merry did not mean that. It is in fact an error which my father never observed: when the length of Buckland from north to south was reduced, Merrys estimate of the distance from the Bridge to the Ferry should have been changed commensurately. -- VI (p. 298) (bold by me)

So an editing repair, not an authorial one, if JRRT never observed it (if I understand correctly - which is always debatable.Wink) I'm being geekily persnickety here, but I wonder, if he took all that trouble to set up the pursuit time in a certain way and in a manner that has impact on the choices Frodo makes, if he would want to change the timing of the impending threat (to allow for the Crickhollow evening, and the press of time deciding the Old Forest) or if he WOULD have changed Buckland's dimensions; which seem to me to be the more malleable of the two, as it plays no significant part in the tale one way or the other.




Does the advice of Gildor bear fruit here, and maybe give more weight and purpose (authorial or character) to the conversation Frodo has with Gildor by the fire?
It shows that he can't trust Sam, of course.
And I never got it clear - what information id Sam actually collect? Especially if he dried up immediately after being caught?

I assume it relates to Merry's statement (making all those heartfelt angsty goodbyes a bit lamely humorous) that they were all in the know about Frodo's contemplation of leaving home. In truth by the time Sam dried up, they thought they knew it all: Frodo was leaving, Merry had the knowledge all these years about the Ring being something special and magical. The 'drying up' allows Merry and Pippin to learn things themselves perhaps? Maybe it also lends them the air of trust in Frodo, and moving forward with him from pure friendship versus having - as Frodo does - a Quest, and all the internal and spiritual things that implies? It certainly allows Sam more credit as staunchly following Mr. Frodo WITH the deadly knowledge that he overheard.



Thank you, Brethil, for this week's discussion! Most welcome!









Brethil
Half-elven


Jan 19 2015, 2:46am

Post #119 of 119 (845 views)
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Can we call all this shrub-debate a Hedgerow? [In reply to] Can't Post

I jest. No rows here. Just making a hedgy pun. Cool


Getting past my geeky gardener ways, I agree that it likely was not a formal, monoculture sort of item. Privet, yew, holly, vines, small tress that sprout up: they all create a formidable stand of growth. They thrill birds, I will say that.


Congrats on your Silver, BTW! Angelic Its early for Istari marriage yet, but yes I think you're doing well.Laugh







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