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TwistedH
Registered User
Jan 10 2015, 7:17pm
Post #1 of 16
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Different races coming of age
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Did Tolkien actually state when the various races are considered 'adult' in any of his writings, or are the ages I often see in the fandom (such as 33 being of age for Hobbits) simply using the longevity of various races and extrapolating?
I hadn't ever seen a source for coming of age and was wondering. :-)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 10 2015, 7:37pm
Post #2 of 16
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Hobbits come of age at 33 years.
Dwarves usually marry after reaching 100 years.
Elves mature at least a little more slowly than Men. I think that they often aren't in any particular hurry to wed.
Numenoreans and Dunedain probably mature about as quickly as common Men.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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squire
Half-elven
Jan 10 2015, 8:37pm
Post #3 of 16
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Tolkien gives some information, but you have to exercise judgment
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Tolkien gives 33 as the hobbits' age of "legal" maturity in the first chapter of The Lord of the Rings:
At that time [moving in with Bilbo] Frodo was still in his “tweens,” as the hobbits called the irresponsible twenties between childhood and coming of age at thirty-three. ... [Twelve years later] Frodo was going to be “thirty-three,” (33) an important number: the date of his ‘coming of age’. ... [Bilbo:] "For it is, of course, also the birthday of my heir and nephew, Frodo. He comes of age and into his inheritance today.” -LotR I.1.
Now in our world most contemporary societies with legal structures tend to differentiate between "coming of age", that is, becoming a physical adult, and "age of majority" which relates to citizenship and the legal rights of full adulthood. For instance, religious rituals like confirmation or bar/bat mitzvah, or social rituals like Sweet Sixteen or Coming Out, reflect sexual maturity and take place around age 15; full adulthood is not recognized until age 18 in most countries today and traditionally it was 21 for men until quite recently. Tolkien elides all that with hobbits; for whatever reason, he uses the adolescent term "coming of age" to refer to legal age (Frodo gets "his inheritance") and implies that hobbits were physically mature and past childhood, but emotionally irresponsible, during their "tweens".
For the Elves and Dwarves on this question we have the posthumously published notes that appear in the History of Middle-earth (HoME) series.
In the late 1950s while preparing The Silmarillion for possible publication, Tolkien wrote for his own consideration an essay, "Laws and Customs of the Eldar", in which he suggests that Elves come of age in some sense between 50 and 100:
Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.
The Eldar wedded for the most part in their youth and soon after their fiftieth year. - HoME X, 210.
Here the author focuses on physical maturity in discussing the Elves' concept of adulthood. As soon as they can marry, they more or less do marry; whether they must wait an additional time for whatever the Elves might consider "legal" rights is unstated, but frankly seems unlikely given the ages involved (50-100 years old). Certainly the very concept of "inheritance" becomes indeterminate with an immortal race, doesn't it!
Tolkien's one-page memorandum, "Notes on the Chronology of Durin's Line", dating roughly in the early 1950s, says this about the Dwarves who are featured in The Lord of the Rings:
Dwarves remained young -- e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting -- until they were 30 or nearly that... After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age... - HoME XII, 284.
As with the Elves, it's hard to connect our term "coming of age" with this passage. The extreme physical deformation described here for the Dwarves portrays youth as a kind of larval stage!
As for Men in Middle-earth, we generally assume that Tolkien expects us to associate their customs with those nations of mankind that lived in Europe maybe 500-1000 years ago. You can decide when it is that Men "come of age": when they are physically adult and able to conceive and bear children? or when they are mature enough to be regarded as fully adult men and women, welcome in the courts and councils of the tribe or nation?
Well, that's the best I can give you. I'd love to see if anyone can find a note by Tolkien describing the life-stages in years of Ents, not to mention the unfree peoples like Orcs and Trolls!
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EomundDaughter
Lorien
Jan 10 2015, 9:03pm
Post #4 of 16
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Looks like Tolkien had a lot of fun
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with dwarves...wives with beards...rather ugly children and marriage at 100yrs of age....they seemed to be all about work and property (and beards)....amazing
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TwistedH
Registered User
Jan 11 2015, 12:27am
Post #5 of 16
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Thanks everybody! And thanks so much for all the details!
That was exactly what I was trying to find out. And yeah, i'd be very curious about orcs, too. Hmmm...or Eagles or dragons, come to think of it!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 11 2015, 2:20am
Post #7 of 16
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Thank you for your clarifications, Squire! I think it is fair to say that Hobbits reached their sexual maturity during their 'tweens' (20s) and were formally recognized as full adults at age 33.
I recall Tolkien's notes about Elves, but I had not seen the passage that you cite for the Dwarves until now. Again, thanks.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Gianna
Rohan
Jan 11 2015, 3:20am
Post #8 of 16
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Tolkien talks about Elves coming of age in part of Morgoth's Ring. I may be wrong, it's a while since I read it, but I know there was quite a long thing about Elves and Elvish marriage and stuff like that. Fascinating read in any case!
~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 11 2015, 1:08pm
Post #9 of 16
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Dwarves remained young -- e.g. regarded as too tender for really hard work or for fighting -- until they were 30 or nearly that... After that they hardened and took on the appearance of age (by human standards) very quickly. By forty all Dwarves looked much alike in age... - HoME XII, 284.
So we can't really argue that Gimli, in his sixty-second year, was physically too young to accompany Gloin on the Quest of Erebor. I suppose that we have to conclude that he was too emotionally immature to bring along. Or that he had over-protective parents.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 11 2015, 4:35pm
Post #10 of 16
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in addition to "Laws And Customs" (more about Elves)...
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The idea in Laws And Customs Of The Eldar (50, or for some 100 years) has already been cited, but I'm not sure it was Tolkien's only idea, nor his last. Or in any case, it seems it can get complicated (see beyond the 'line of peril' below). Anyway here is, as far as I know today, Tolkien's latest statement about Elvish growth to maturity
Note 1: "C.E. ? netthi. C.E. tth > Q., T. (...) nette meant 'girl approaching the adult' (in her 'teens': the growth of Elvish children after birth was little if at all slower than that of the children of Men). The Common Eldarin stem (wen-ed) (...) 'maiden' applied to all stages up to the fully adult (until marriage).' JRRT Vinyar Tengwar 47, from texts generally dated 1967-70
Compare to ('they' are the Númenóreans):
"Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly." Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales
And read below the line at your own peril 
___________________________
"On Earth while an elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change, while birds and flowers innumerable would be born and die in loar upon loar under the wheeling Sun." JRRT Morgoth's Ring Text XI
I took this quote (Text XI is also called Aman in Morgoth's Ring) as a variant of the much shorter maturity rate of 50 (for some 100) given in Laws and Customs (also MR), and already noted here.
Recently however, someone pointed out that the far longer rate might reflect an earlier maturity rate for Elves, and that in Middle-earth, the rate became swifter. Before the section I quoted, in the same text, it is also said: 'Nonetheless the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth'
I hadn't put very much emphasis on the part 'in their beginning', since later on in Aman and Mortal Men it was said that the Valar could not alter the speed of growth of the Children (relative to the whole life of Arda). However Christopher Tolkien noted in his commentary on Text XI: 'I realized that it stands in fact in very close relationship to the manuscript of Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth,...' and in that text Finrod notes:
"This I can well believe,' said Finrod: 'That your bodies suffer in some measure the malice of Melkor. For you live in Arda Marred, as do we, and all the matter of Arda is tainted by him, before ye or we came forth and drew our hroar and their sustenance therefrom: all save only Aman before he came there. For know it is not otherwise with the Quendi themselves: their health and stature is diminished. Already those of us who dwell in Middle-earth, and even we who have returned to it, find that the change* [*the word change was an emendation to the typescript B (only); the manuscript has growth -- footnote by CJRT] of their bodies is swifter than in the beginning. And that, I judge, must forebode that they will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be, though this may not be clearly revealed for many long years." Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth (and see Author's note 7 on the Commentary)
This work is generally dated to about the same time (late 1950s) as Laws And Customs too -- noting that the manuscript of the debate is said to be: 'very similar in style and appearance to that of Laws and Customs among the Eldar.'
I wonder then, despite the rather notable (!) change from a general 3000 years to 50, if these texts were not actually supposed to meld together on this point, and that the Elvish growth to maturity was (at least according to these examples) supposed to have become swifter over time, due to Arda Marred.
Or something.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 11 2015, 4:38pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 11 2015, 4:54pm
Post #11 of 16
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Changing Maturity Rates in Elves?
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If we dismiss the 3000 year figure from Morgoth's Ring as an idea that Tolkien tossed aside then we can speculate that perhaps the figure from Laws and Customs of the Eldar applied principally to Elves of the First Age and that by the end of the Third Age, Elves in Arda were maturing at nearly the same rate as Men. This could have been a sign of their diminishment.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 11 2015, 5:23pm
Post #12 of 16
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... but should we dismiss 3000, given the seeming, if general, connectedness of these texts in the external chronology?
I wonder if Tolkien thought the whole idea as possibly getting 'too' complicated, as he might have to think about these matters when giving (if giving) birth dates for certain Elves in certain times, and maybe he rejected it all for the notion expressed in the late text (Vinyar Tengwar).
Interestingly, by the time Arwen (although Half-elven in any case) married Aragorn she was not yet even 20 yéni old.
To see how close that is to 3,000 years (math alert)...
... note Appendix D, where the Quenya word yén often translated 'year' really means 144 sun years. Also interesting (to some perhaps): in a draft for The Tale of Years Arwen was born in 2349 for example, but Tolkien pushed back the wedding of her parents and etc. of course.
Of course what does that reall mean with respect to the question? Don't ask me
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 12 2015, 5:22am
Post #13 of 16
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with everyone's incredibly awesome geeky knowledge...
(sigh)
(wanders off to reread the HoME series...)
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 12 2015, 12:34pm
Post #14 of 16
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I should add that it's not as complicated as it sounds with respect to one aspect, as, in the text in which Elves initially take 3,000 years to 'grow up' Tolkien is using the system of 1 Valian Year = 144 Sun Years -- so then he can still fairly easily judge when his Elves should be grown up in Aman (roughly three thousand years later) by noting the Valian Years as if they were Sun Years.
That is, say "so and so" is born in Valinor, and roughly 20 Valian Years later (or even a bit earlier) he or she can be doing 'adult' things, just like mortals in Middle-earth can be, roughly 20 years after they are born. The actual time in Aman is far longer, but going by Valian dating the general thinking is the same-ish.
Yet Tolkien would really have to mind such a notion -- an internally changing maturity rate -- for Elves in Middle-earth. But of course that's also if Tolkien went with the idea of 1 Valian Year = 144 Sun Years, which is a far greater rate than he used when the Annals of Aman were actually written!
The other factor is that Laws And Customs (50 or 100 years for some) seems to have been written by a Man, possibly Elfwine of England. I think The Children of Hurin reflects the idea of Elves maturing slowlier (or some actual word), but if I'm not mistaken this too (this section of this tale) was written in about the same period as Aman, Laws And Customs, and the Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth.
Unfortunately the late linguistic reference from Vinyar Tengwar is relatively brief.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 12 2015, 12:41pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 12 2015, 2:42pm
Post #15 of 16
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The time of the Awakening of the Elves
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I should add that it's not as complicated as it sounds with respect to one aspect, as, in the text in which Elves initially take 3,000 years to 'grow up' Tolkien is using the system of 1 Valian Year = 144 Sun Years -- so then he can still fairly easily judge when his Elves should be grown up in Aman (roughly three thousand years later) by noting the Valian Years as if they were Sun Years.
Should we assume the same, slow rate-of-growth from when the Elves first awoke in the East of Arda through the long years before the Three Kindreds came to Aman?
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 12 2015, 7:17pm
Post #16 of 16
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In my opinion simply plugging 144 Sun Years into the Annals of Aman does not work well with respect to certain things (when this text was written the ratio was 1 Valian Year = 9.582 Sun Years rather)...
... on the other hand it vastly extends the actual time of these very early years. But that said I'm not sure when the slow rate began to quicken, or quicken by how much. The 3,000 years seems to have held for Elves in Aman in any case.
Whatever that might mean
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