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ShireHorse
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 4:58pm
Post #1 of 46
(1509 views)
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The Golden Floor: Have you Changed your Mind?
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This is directed at those who really disliked the scene in the forges at the end of DoS when Thorin & Co try to drown Smaug in gold and thereby create a golden floor.
Actually, I have always liked this sequence: I found it very entertaining to watch and it culminated in some marvellous images such as the melting of the statue and the drowning of the dragon who then rises up as Smaug the Golden, spraying all those gold droplets everywhere in the night sky. Beautiful!
I liked it that, unlike in the book, the dwarves make a concerted stand against the dragon and refuse to die like rats, deciding rather that they will all burn together. I also feel that Smaug needed a really good reason to descend upon Lake Town in his fury and that being prodded by Bilbo just wasn't enough.
Other posters decided that the whole exercise was silly and somewhat pointless. The dwarves now have a useless golden floor. So what?
However, the golden floor makes another appearance in Bot5A and, I believe it plays an important role. It symbolises the futility of Thorin's fight against Smaug and, in its splendiferousness, it also represents the grotesque wealth of Erebor.
IMO, one of the best scenes is when Thorin retreats to the Hall of Kings. As he hallucinates and sees the shadow of Smaug swimming beneath the golden floor, we understand how like Smaug he has become. And, as he sinks into the seemingly molten gold, we realise how he is trapped and wonder if he can shake off the gold and free himself, just as Smaug has done. I think it is quite striking and illustrates the terrific struggle with himself that Thorin is going through.
So, to people who didn't like this episode in DoS, once you saw the Bot5A and how the golden floor tied in with an idea and wasn't just there for a bit of Indiana Jones style silliness, did you suddenly appreciate the relevance of that sequence a bit more?
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jan 10 2015, 5:07pm
Post #2 of 46
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I'm not particularly against the DoS scene
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However, I think the scene showing Thorin in the Hall of Kings, with the hallucination featuring Smaug, is incredible.
Just wanted to say that.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jan 10 2015, 5:12pm
Post #3 of 46
(766 views)
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I liked the scene already so I'll have to say nothing!
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Thrain II
Lorien
Jan 10 2015, 5:18pm
Post #4 of 46
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not that this scene alone was my biggest problem, it was the ridiculous chase that led up to it. It is the low point of this trilogy for me, after the love triangle.
As for the scene with Thorin in Hall of Kings you mentioned, I really liked it. 
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jan 10 2015, 5:25pm
Post #5 of 46
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I'm not a hater of the scene, but from what I've heard...
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I think (although couldn't say for certain) that many people who didn't like the Smaug statue battle sequence stuff also didn't like the weird hallucination either. So I imagine their opinions are unchanged. But who am I to express other people's opinions?
My opinion on the forges battle isn't great, though. I don't hate it, but I would prefer something... different? Somethng that didn't make Smaug look so useless I guess.
I was surprised to see elements from it feature in such an important scene in the third movie. I was confused how such a pivotal part of Thorin's character is based so heavily on something that was invented last-minute to give film 2 a climax. How was this madness going to resolve before that golden statue thing? In a slightly different hallicination sequence or something else entirely? It makes me wonder how much of the film actually changed after they made adjustments.
Would like to have seen a giant golden Thorin statue melting, though. Surprised they missed that visual metaphor. I quite enjoyed the hallucination, though. But I felt like it was a bit of a cop-out when he just threw his crown down and he was conveniently all better. 
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jan 10 2015, 5:27pm)
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Avandel
Half-elven
Jan 10 2015, 5:33pm
Post #6 of 46
(705 views)
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Like even more now seeing the amazing scene in BOFA,
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 5:46pm
Post #7 of 46
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that people seeing DoS and the Bot5A one after the other would say: "Ah, now I understand what PJ was up to! That rather improves the overall concept."
I do feel that many of the complaints about this trilogy will die down a bit when all three EEs can be watched back to back and viewers will be able to see the links that Jackson has made. I'm not one of those people who wants each film to stand on its own: I am quite happy with the concept of a 8/9 hour film that has been divided into parts. and which changes, as Tolkien's book does, from the bright colours and childish silliness of the initial chapters to the more sombre tones of both colour and story-line when we get to the end.
As to PJ having to adjust to a new story-line when he added the sequence with the forges, I can imagine that, before that, Thorin just went down to the treasure hall and began sinking in the hoard. Personally, I really like the concept of that fabulous golden floor.
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QuackingTroll
Valinor
Jan 10 2015, 5:46pm
Post #8 of 46
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Anyone else got the feeling the hallucination will be different in the EE?
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When he hears all the voices from previous conversations, I feel like there will be some extra extended edition stuff put into the hallucination, which they couldn't include because they were cut. I also think it might play out a little better.
One example, say if Gandalf says "your father loved you Thorin" or whatever words he has to say about Thrain (if any). These will likely be included in the extended hallucination and give it a little more impact.
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Jan 10 2015, 5:54pm
Post #9 of 46
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I really still very much dislike the OTT chase scene and gold boogie boarding, Thorin swinging around, standing on Smaug snout scene. I did think the scene with Thorin and the image of Smaug in the gold floor was fabulous
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you, Gandalf the Grey
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 10 2015, 6:08pm
Post #10 of 46
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I'm hoping for the final piece of the Thrain plot too. There needs to be some extra dialogue where Gandalf tells Thorin that Thrain loved him or something along those lines. I want to see how Thorin reacts. I assume he would just call Gandalf a liar for saying he even saw Thrain. If they do add extra dialogue, I wonder how much Gandalf will actually say about the whole Dol Guldur encounter.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 10 2015, 6:11pm
Post #11 of 46
(687 views)
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It was cool to see the floor in a new context
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But personally I didn't like how the scene played out. To me it typifies Jackson's inability to craft an emotional scene with characters who actually feel things in this new trilogy. For example, how does Jackson show Thorin's gold sickness? He has Thorin LITERALLY falling into a vortex of gold. It's just so ham fisted. What I wanted was Thorin, the "great king", falling to his knees and weeping at his realization of how far he'd gone. But what we get is an over visualized, over sound designed telegraphed character 180.
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Jan 10 2015, 6:23pm
Post #12 of 46
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I can still very much enjoy the entire trilogy even though there were parts that I did not care for. I really like the Thorin on the gold floor scene and the image of Smaug in the gold. That doesn't for me though negate the OTT chase through Erebor, surfing down the gold, doing the whole gold statue thing. It really does take me out of the film a bit when I see that set of scenes. I could have seen it done just as effectively with gold coins on the floor and/or Smaug having flown out of erebor and melting the gold coins on the floor to get the same affect without the over the top Erebor chase.
I do agree there had to be some kind of chase seen in Erebor and driving Smaug out. I just didn't like how it was done on the screen. Nonetheless I like the movies overall. I will likely when I get the EE's not watch DoS as much but I have to say having seen all 3 at the same time it suffers less for me when it is viewed immediately inbetween AUJ and BoT5A. I still likely will not watch it as much as the others.
Still having said that the gold floor scene was fabulous to me. I loved it. I may not have liked how they got there, and I don't. But I loved the scene itself.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you, Gandalf the Grey
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ShireHorse
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 6:25pm
Post #13 of 46
(687 views)
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Falling to his knees and weeping
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involves a bit of scenery chewing and would be ham-fisted, IMO. This is not how RA acts. You might have noticed in other Thorin scenes that it's all in the eyes or the stance or the voice. Before the golden floor scene, we see the struggle going on inside him, even when he's far gone. When he comes back to his company at the end of the scene, you can see how traumatised he is, how much emotion he is feeling when he touches foreheads with Kili and how humble he is when he asks them to follow him one last time.
Crying on one's knees is how second-rate actors would give us Thorin.
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea
Jan 10 2015, 6:28pm
Post #14 of 46
(674 views)
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I thought the vortex part was done well and I thought his casting the crown and It skittering across the gold floor was so effective along with his hearing the voices. I agree.
All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you, Gandalf the Grey
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marillaraina
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 6:39pm
Post #15 of 46
(646 views)
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I thought the vortex part was done well and I thought his casting the crown and It skittering across the gold floor was so effective along with his hearing the voices. I agree.
I think the idea was good and there wasn't the slightest issue at all with the acting but I don't think the "vortex of gold" was well done. You know how those 60's films tried to portray a bad trip? It reminded me of that, you start wondering when the spirals are going to appear.
As for the gold floor or the scene in DOS that led to it, I actually loved the scene in DOS, it was so clever and that look in Smaug's eyes as he's seeing the statue - perfect and I liked that we got to see the aftermath of the golden floor. While both were testaments, in a way to the depth of Thror's madness, to me the actual floor symbolized the ingenuity and bravery of the dwarves trying to defeat Smaug.
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balbo biggins
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 6:42pm
Post #16 of 46
(637 views)
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I liked how the golden statue was actually a bell that they used to announce the arrival at the battle. but I still dislike the whole idea/setup. smaug descends on laketown for no other reason than the dwarves and Bilbo wake him up and antagonise him, in the book the dwarves hide so there is no way smaug can reach them so he traps them, essentially putting them to a slow death which is far more dragon like and evil.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jan 10 2015, 6:45pm
Post #17 of 46
(664 views)
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I'm certainly not suggesting that weeping is the only way to convey an emotion. But for me something more simple driven by performance would have been far more effective. As it is the scene is driven by a special effect of him slipping into a vortex.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jan 10 2015, 6:53pm
Post #18 of 46
(648 views)
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I can't claim to have changed my mind...
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..because I really appreciated that whole scene in DoS, but I was pleased and surprised to see it lead to what is for me one of the most powerful scenes in the new film
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Thrain II
Lorien
Jan 10 2015, 6:57pm
Post #19 of 46
(634 views)
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too, but can't see any other place to put it other than one where Thorin almost throws Bilbo over the wall, and Gandalf stops him. It's the only place they interact in the movie, but I can't really figure out how would it work there.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 10 2015, 7:01pm
Post #20 of 46
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Once Thorin releases Bilbo and he departs, Gandalf adresses him, telling him he is not cuting a very fine figure as King Under the Mountain. In the TE, he makes a point of addresing him as not just Thorin, but also Son of Thrain - I could see right there inserting some sort of dialogue. Maybe Gandalfcould share that the Nacromancer's army is coming, for example, and that Thrain warned of the Necromancer's interest in the Mountain.
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
Jan 10 2015, 7:05pm
Post #22 of 46
(617 views)
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I do want that scene, but I am dreading it.
My own suspicion, though, is that these particular filmmakers would want Thorin to hear those words, somehow.
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Thrain II
Lorien
Jan 10 2015, 7:11pm
Post #23 of 46
(608 views)
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it could maybe work, here's to hoping what to see in the EE!
As for QuackingTroll's suggestion, well, that would make the saddest scene in whole trilogy even more painful 
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 7:15pm
Post #24 of 46
(642 views)
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I change my mind when I saw the DOS EE
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but I'm always changing my mind from one viewing to the next. Each time I see one of the films its like peeling another layer of the onion. The first viewing of any of either trilogy leaves me in a state of joy over the wonder and privelege of getting to be in Middle-earth again. The second viewing I start to feel uncomfortable with changes to my most beloved story. I was so uncomfortable with the elaborate battle between Smaug and the dwarves that I felt sick to my stomach and didn't even see it again until the EE came out--and then I just fell in love with it.
So, although I love expressing my own opinions, I have to take them with a grain of salt.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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Arveldis
Rivendell
Jan 10 2015, 7:22pm
Post #25 of 46
(615 views)
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I'm not a fan of the forges scene in DoS as I find it drawn out and rather ridiculous-looking. I'm happy that the dwarves in the movie tried to fight back in some way (unlike their book counterparts), but I wish their fight against Smaug could have been done some other way (though I'm no director, so I don't know how). That said, I love the scene where Smaug stares at the golden statue, enraptured by the sheer amount of gold before him, and all that follows, especially Smaug flicking off his golden covering into the night sky.
In BotFA, I loved Thorin's pacing over the floor. You could tell by the way he moved slowly, almost druggedly, over the floor that he's caught between two forces (his rational, normal side and the dragon sickness), neither of which will release their hold on him. I thought that this was a tragic, haunting depiction of how alone he was in his suffering. But I'm not that enthusiastic about the floor of gold swallowing him. The idea was good; the execution...not so much. It's a striking representation of what could happen to him should he not shake off the dragon sickness, but I was a little jolted out of the movie when I saw it, simply because it looked fake to me. But it's Thorin, so I really can't complain.
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