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balbo biggins
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 1:31am
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Legolas and the glittering caves
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In the Two Towers , Legolas (I cant remember exactly the conversation) is apprehensive about the glittering caves like gimli is apprehensive about fangorn,, ive always found this an anomaly considering legolas was brought up in a cave? was legolas' history not set when Tolkien wrote this?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 10 2015, 3:49am
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I would have to read the exact exchange to comment specifically (and referesh my memory on the draft history here), but without doing those things (!) I'll say that the construction of Thranduil's halls seems to have come about due to the Shadow falling on Greenwood. And about Thranduil's folk in general: "In a great cave some miles within the edge of Mirkwood on its eastern side there lived at this time their greatest king. (. . .) In fact the subjects of the king mostly lived and hunted in the open woods, and had houses or huts on the ground and in the branches (. . .) The king's cave was his palace, and the strong place of his treasure, and the fortress of his people against their enemies." The Hobbit Tolkien explained that the Eldar, '... though they might at need, in their bitter wars with the Dark Powers and his servants, contrive fortresses underground, were not dwellers in such places of choice. They were lovers of the green earth and the lights of heaven...' I know that's not Legolas specific, but it's not nothing
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 10 2015, 4:04am)
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 4:39pm
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I've wondered about that too, thanks for clarifying
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I also seem to recall Legolas' apprehension about the caverns was far less than Gimli's about Fangorn, and the idea of visiting both together was something Legolas came up with. Just because you came from somewhere doesn't mean you would want to go to a similar place. The most depressing ouija board predication I got as a kid was that I would spend the rest of my life living in my home town!(didn't come true, fortunately)
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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Awië
The Shire
Jan 10 2015, 6:56pm
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There are caves and then caves
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I take it that the Caves inhabited by Thranduil's people were not underground (for the most part - maybe the dungeons) but above ground. Caves can be formed by rocks or trees, dense trees. In my imagination (and I think that the books are all about using your imagination) the caves of Thranduil are made of dense trees, and maybe going into the hillside. I do not see them in my mind, as underground caves.
'Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,' --JRR Tolkien--
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squire
Half-elven
Jan 10 2015, 8:52pm
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A cave is a cave is a cave, when Tolkien chooses to use the word at all. He loves real caves.
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I appreciate your desire to use your imagination when reading Tolkien, but "courtesy to a certain author" might suggest that we take him at his word when he tells us the Elvenking's halls in The Hobbit were in fact underground caverns. Because they were carved out of a hill in the forest, the gate and front passage were on a level with the forest outside, but once inside one was undeniably underground, and quite deep underground the further into the hill one ventured. But of course you are right to imagine the Wood-elves living in trees - they did. The king's underground hall was like the castle of a manor; it wasn't a "city" in the way that Moria or Lothlorien was.
This great cave, from which countless smaller ones opened out on every side, wound far underground and had many passages and wide halls; but it was lighter and more wholesome than any goblin-dwelling, and neither so deep nor so dangerous. In fact the subjects of the king mostly lived and hunted in the open woods, and had houses or huts on the ground and in the branches. The beeches were their favourite trees. The king’s cave was his palace, and the strong place of his treasure, and the fortress of his people against their enemies. - The Hobbit, VIII. ...at the far end were gates before the mouth of a huge cave that ran into the side of a steep slope covered with trees. ... Inside the passages were lit with red torch-light, and the elf-guards sang as they marched along the twisting, crossing, and echoing paths. These were not like those of the goblin-cities: they were smaller, less deep underground, and filled with a cleaner air. In a great hall with pillars hewn out of the living stone sat the Elvenking. - The Hobbit, IX.
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Awië
The Shire
Jan 10 2015, 9:06pm
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Thank you for such a detailed reply. I guess I must have selective reading, or a desire not to think of Elves underground. Maybe its my own claustrophobia making it so. I dare say my own imagination will continue to visualize my own little Elven kingdom world. HA!
'Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,' --JRR Tolkien--
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PhantomS
Rohan
Jan 11 2015, 4:09pm
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Legolas doesn't like caves, but he isn't scared of them- he goes right into the Paths of the Dead, although he says Aragorn is what spurred him on. He also doesn't mind Moria that much. He tells Gimli he would give gold to be let out of the Glittering Caves, but in the context of their discussion he is rolling his eyes at Gimli's simmering monologue, rather than not liking the place itself. It is more likely that the Mirkwood elves made their home more 'Elvish' as the movies tended to depict it- with light all over the place, beautiful architecture, tree roots everywhere and of course singing. Let's also remember that the Mirkwood Elves get their peace by walking in the woods, and they patrol and hunt (per the Hobbit) a lot hence the trauma of living in a cave is perhaps lessened.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 13 2015, 6:38pm
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this is one of my favorite bits in the books
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I always read it as the essence of the oppositeness, the differences between the Elves and Dwarves, the kind of differences that were bridged in the friendship, and eventually bridged the two races as well. Those are differences that remain... Legolas really would rather pay to be let out of the (bleargh) caves, can't see the sky, can't smell the breeze, can't talk to the trees, nope, nope, nope, getting on the Nopeville Train... while Gimli (last seen sharpening his battleaxe on the eaves of Fangorn while Legolas stared longingly into the woods hearing the trees speak) can't bear the thought of returning to the darkest, scariest, treeiest place he's ever had the misfortune of encountering. But they have stood by each other in battle at the end of the world, and that is a bond that even the wives of returning soldiers can never understand. We have faced Death together... So they make those little adjustments, and yeah, I really don't want to go to the caves but, OK, if it makes you happy, and maybe I can get you to understand the trees... It rings true. I grew up with folk, who, like Dwarves, would rather go someplace I didn't.. and who wouldn't go someplace I wanted to. I remember when my dad finally took me and a few friends to Chincoteague Island for the wild pony roundup. We had to drag him out to the beach, where he Dwarvishly stomped along, as far from the water as possible, in his work boots, long pants, and long sleeved shirt rolled just to the elbows while the rest of us Elves ran into the surf and embraced the sea.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 13 2015, 6:43pm
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yerp... hadn't thought of that, but, Legolas' humor tends to be understated......... accurate post is accurate.... Not so much dislike of caves but being opposite of Gimli... As in having a discussion with a friend about which film to see again and they really liked Night at the Museum 2 but (eyeroll) nooooo, we really need to go see BOFA again. Ultimate compromise, go see both.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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