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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jan 13 2015, 7:39am
Post #26 of 35
(128 views)
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What really balances the scales for me...
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...is the 85% cure rate with treatment vs. virtually nil without. With those cure rates, declining treatment is morally equivalent to suicide. The "bright line" of an 18th birthday is appallingly artificial, but I truly pray that in her case she will be on the path to health and looking forward to many good years.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 13 2015, 4:25pm
Post #27 of 35
(103 views)
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I have heard that somewhere...
fortunately, they have a much higher percent of success than young hawks (high percentage die in first year migration).
Never thought about the soldier thing before... hmmmmmmmmmmmm. yes.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 13 2015, 4:39pm
Post #28 of 35
(101 views)
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who can truly tell the story
is the one living it
the rest of us are just guessing
Discussing and educating can change things.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Jan 13 2015, 5:11pm
Post #29 of 35
(100 views)
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Just because someone is resentful doesn't mean its the wrong thing to do
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I have to seriously question whether this was the right thing for the state to do. Think of the resentment - think how miserable she must feel. She might be cussing out the hospital staff everyday, and THEY are just as much being compelled by the state as she is! Just a bad situation all around.
As a parent, I often have to do things that make my kids very resentful. I don't do it to be mean, I don't do it Just Because I Can, I do it because I love them and in my best judgement, it's much better than the alternative. Loving someone and caring for someone doesn't mean always making them happy - it can mean quite the opposite in fact.
I honestly couldn't care less if a teen is resentful about life-saving medical procedures. Keeping them happy is not my job. Keeping them alive? Yeah, that's more my job.
As has been said, 18 is a solid, bright line. If the girl was 18 and one day, then I wouldn't raise a finger - but what tragedy. But at 17 years and 364 days, we still get to keep her safe. It's just the law - it ain't perfect, but it's what we've got.
Notta
 Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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Kelly of Water's Edge
Rohan
Jan 14 2015, 12:09am
Post #30 of 35
(94 views)
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is probably because a pregnant girl can have a very real chance of being beaten within an inch of her life if her parents found out she had sex if she's unfortunate enough to have a certain home situation. That's not an issue with cancer.
At any rate, I'm glad I don't have to make the decision involving this case. I have a problem with the visual of her literally being strapped down and forced chemo, but I also find the idea of her not having the chemo - terrible as I understand that experience can be - with such a high chance of survival if she does have it hard to swallow as well. No good answer to this one.
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EomundDaughter
Lorien
Jan 14 2015, 12:38pm
Post #31 of 35
(85 views)
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Here is something not to forget....
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and this happened to a friend of mine...this is a disagreement between the teen and the MD...she wants to stop, he wants to continue.
My friend simply found a DIFFERENT MD with a SECOND opinion and all the controversy was over......the state will enforce the second opinion MD because all they care about is "MD".......
Remember Steve Jobs.....he did not choose the cancer chemo treatment.....he went alternative....his right....no questions...
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Tintallė
Gondor
Jan 14 2015, 7:09pm
Post #32 of 35
(77 views)
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There's no right or wrong answer to this.
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From the article, referring to the chemotherapy:
"it's an effective poison, and the benefits far outweigh the risks in cases like this."
What they don't tell you is that the chemo doesn't just cure the Hodgkins. It affects the rest of your body as well, sometimes with disastrous long-term consequences, such as organ failure. The statistics are all about survival, but those numbers tell you nothing about the patient's quality of life after surviving both the cancer and the chemo.
I am not saying either position is right or wrong; I am simply saying that there is more to the picture than chemo cure vs. no cure.
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Jan 14 2015, 7:28pm
Post #33 of 35
(78 views)
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This was what I was going to bring up
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85% cure means only that - the cancer is gone 85% of the time for good. That does not address the long term effects and many families talk about the "new normal" after chemotherapy. Side effects can be anything from changes in cognition and learn disabilities to sterility or even other cancers.
My friend's son beat lymphoma but the child that came out the other side was not the same child who went in. Would she make the same choice for him? Yes, but she is very honest in saying that she was completely unprepared for the consequences and what his life would be "after".
It's not black and white and it's definitely not something anyone can judge a young woman or a parent on even if they have been through it with their own.
Hopefully, they can come to an arrangement that gives the young woman some sense of control back in her life. Cancer already took that away from her, it's my hope the people around her will help her get through this as best as possible for her.
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ITLs don't get enough FAS. :)
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Annael
Immortal
Jan 14 2015, 8:14pm
Post #34 of 35
(74 views)
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the big lesson of cancer for most people is "you are not in control." Perhaps harder for an adolescent to accept?
Yes, her life will be changed forever, but not necessarily all to the negative. Most people who survive cancer come through with a greater appreciation for their remaining life. Many learn what really matters to them.
One of my favorite books is "Legacy of the Heart" by Wayne Muller, a therapist and minister. Muller argues that people who face harsh trials in childhood often end up more empathetic, more spiritual, and more creative as a result. So while her physical state may not ever return to what it was (although I know several people who survived Hodgkins in their teens and are just fine), her emotional/spiritual/creative states may gain something she otherwise wouldn't have achieved.
Since evidence can be adduced and interpreted to corroborate a virtually limitless array of world views, the human challenge is to engage that world view or set of perspectives which brings forth the most valuable, life-enhancing consequences.
- Richard Tarnas, The Passion of the Western Mind
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Jan 14 2015, 8:59pm
Post #35 of 35
(71 views)
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She is not in control and even more so because she is a minor. At that age, that kind of lack of control can seemed magnified in ways we adults do not understand. There may even be very good reasons that we can understand. And while most people do come through life-threatening events with a better appreciation of life (although as I have witnessed recently it doesn't necessarily make them better people), I don't know if an adolescent girl will think that way or that a promise of a more appreciative life will sway her.
My hope is that this bit of rebellion alerts those involved in her care that there is something else going on that still needs to be addressed. The grown-ups have the upper hand now and can compel her to undergo treatment. How they approach it now will make a big difference in how she views herself and interactions with not only the medical community but also adults in authority. Her life has already been changed.
The endpoint should not be her 5 or 10 year results. There is more at stake than that. It's up to those taking care of her to help her make the change and the endpoint positive for more than just surviving her cancer.
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ITLs don't get enough FAS. :)
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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