|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Jan 8 2015, 7:26am
Post #1 of 17
(1319 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A different ''Hobbit'' book (Fanfiction)
|
Can't Post
|
|
Like Glaurung from the first age, Smaug should lead an army. The Hobbit is a fun loving book, but it doesn't have the ''the stakes are high'' theme over it. Even though Jackson did what he could to make it more than a children book. So, not to disrespect Tolkien, but this is how I would write the Hobbit:
When Smaug arrives to attak Erebor and Dale, he has an army of Easterlings with him. These are a different tribe than the ones we have seen from Lotr. More primitive and savage, and they worship Smaug. Their leader is a black numenorean chieftain, that in secrecy works with Sauron and Azog.
After Erebor and Dale have been taken, Smaug resides inside Erebor, while the easterlings inhabits Dale, and build a garrison around it. They desecrates Erebor by replacing statues of dwarves with Smaug and Sauron. The same with Dale also. Ravenhill becomes a new fortress for the easterlings. Orcs from the Misty Mountains gathers there. Erebor becomes a foul place and renamed to a foul name.
From there, attacks against the Woodland realms, Laketown, and even the Iron Hills happens frequently. Consequences of this means Laketown must relocated further down the south of the river. The Woodland Realms do also have to move a little south in Mirkwood, but not that much. They and Laketown work together to fend of these attacks from Erebor.Watchtower from the elves and men are set up outside Erebor to warn them of incoming attacks, and stop them from crossing over their border
So what do you guys think? I haven't figure out how Bilbo comes into the big picture yet. But a great battle in the end will be bigger and better than the Battle of the Five armies.
(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Jan 8 2015, 7:26am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 8 2015, 1:57pm
Post #3 of 17
(1100 views)
Shortcut
|
As you say yourself, there is no place for Bilbo in all this. Also, your story would require Smaug to share. Smaug does not share his stuff!
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
|
|
|
Morthoron
Gondor
Jan 9 2015, 2:09am
Post #4 of 17
(1087 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The idea is like 90% of Middle-earth fan-fic I have read...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It is without much merit and without any charm. There is a reason only Tolkien wrote The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. It was his. And we are all better for his efforts.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
|
|
|
Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jan 9 2015, 5:23am
Post #5 of 17
(1075 views)
Shortcut
|
|
My daughter did something like that.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
She wrote a fanfic in high school based on several anime characters. Later she changed the names and the landscape and rewrote the story, and now, ten years later, it's amazingly wonderful. And nothing like the source material anymore. She went on a started a prequel and a sequel, and they're even more wonderful. I really like your suggestion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Jan 9 2015, 5:39pm
Post #6 of 17
(1062 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanx for liking my story\plot idea  I didn't make this up to disrespect Professor Tolkien's work. Just a hypothetical idea about how to make the book more like Lord of The Rings. I wouldn't say these are very big radical changes I come with. Just som addition to the original story.
(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Jan 9 2015, 5:52pm)
|
|
|
Aunt Dora Baggins
Immortal
Jan 9 2015, 6:04pm
Post #7 of 17
(1063 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There's nothing wrong with filling in the corners in the background.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I did some of that myself once upon a time:
A Chance Meeting at Rivendell
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 10 2015, 3:34pm
Post #8 of 17
(1069 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A lot depends on what one likes in fantasy fiction!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
As I understand it, Victariongreyjoy's idea turns the Battle of the Five Armies into the Battle of the Six Armies (because a substantial military force has taken up residence in Erebor and would have to be dislodged). Or into something more like the Battle of the Last Alliance.
I'd agree - go ahead & try to write it, Victariongreyjoy. Either you will make a story you like (which I expect would be very satisfying), or you will find out all kinds of interesting stuff about what makes or breaks a story.
Would I personally like such a story? - That was the question you asked, and I have 2 answers:
Answer 1: if you write the story and you like it, maybe it doesn't matter so much what anyone else thinks.
Answer 2: I'm not sure (but I have been thinking about the kind of things I do and do not like, and have come to some conclusions that might be interesting).
From the short explanation you've given, I see this as the "gamer" side of fantasy writing. I don't mean "gamer" pejoratively: what I'm trying to find a term for is writing where the interest is to give different factions resources and weaknesses, and then have them contend for an objective. So it becomes like the kinds of things that can be played out as games (for example this scenario could literately be played out using the figures and rules set of the Games Workshop company, I think). I think there was plenty of "gamer" to Tolkien - look at how carefully he describes troop movements through his works, for example.
I do think, though, Tolkien has at least two other sides - his Middle-earth books have novel-like qualities and they have mythic qualities.
When I say they are novel-like, I mean that we have well-drawn characters that we come to care about as readers. The background situation faces these characters with dilemmas and requires them to make dramatic or painful or thought-provoking choices. There is no reason you can't do this within the frame of a geopolitical struggle - other than Tolkien, George RR Martin is a good example. I find many of his characters memorable and interesting creations as fictional people- they are certainly not just non-entities embedded in key locations so as to give us viewpoints on the political and military situation.
Then there's the mythic (much more in Tolkien than in Martin). Within the context of wider events, Tolkien has characters, or small groups of them on some personal quest - whether it is Feanor, Turin, Beren and Luthien, Bilbo and Thorin, or Frodo and Sam and Gollum. What they are doing can be seen in mythic or psychological terms (if you want). For example, Ursula le Guin has written about seeing Frodo''s journey in psychological terms (as well as a literal journey). It is not just that a small person must trek to a volcano and throw a dangerous item in, she argues: Frodo must defeat, or at least make terms with, his own inner darkness. Gollum, she argues, can be read as Frodo's shadow-self - what will happen if he doesn't win.
So there is something for nearly everyone in Tolkien, whether you like your fiction gamer-ish, novelistic or mythic. But sometimes, of course, people would like the balance skewed in a way they personally prefer.
For example, a question frequently posed on Tolkien boards is "why don't the eagles fly the Ring to Mordor?" There are various answers, but they don't satisfy because I think questioners are sometimes asking "wouldn't it be a better story if the eagles flew the Ring to Mordor?". That's a gamer-ish thought process, I think (again, not meaning the term pejoratively). I think the questioner might be thinking "imagining myself being Gandalf, I wish to get the Ring to Mordor in the quickest and safest manner. Eagles are the obvious solution - does anyone know why I can't use them?". Or, one might think that it would be a more exciting story if there were an airbourne offensive on Mordor, with eagles and nazgul fighting for air supremacy while a small commando party tries to land and destroy the Ring. This makes gamer-ish sense, but if you see the story mythically it doesn't work - one simply has to walk to Mordor....
Back to Erebor, you've given yourself both a gamer-ish and a mythic problem - I don't remember whether the dwarves have a credible plan to get rid of Samug, but as it turns out this doesn't arise. Samug, mythically enough, is destroyed by his own greed, arrogance and fury. He sets off on a punitive raid on Laketown, wrongly sure that he can do so with impunity. This gets Thorin et al. into possession of all the dragon horde, with other mythic consequences. I think I might miss these features in a story where Thorin is just another military leader in an alliance to get rid of Smaug as an aggressive God-King - and I don't see what need there would be for Bilbo. But maybe either those problems could be solved, or maybe these problems would not see important to readers who enjoy that kind of story!
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
|
|
|
Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Jan 10 2015, 3:44pm
Post #9 of 17
(1032 views)
Shortcut
|
Haven't read it all yet, but this is something I already pictured could be used in AUJ film, if PJ wouldn't change the whole Aragorn age and omitt the 17 years gap. Looking forward to read the rest.
(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Jan 10 2015, 3:51pm)
|
|
|
Victariongreyjoy
Lorien
Jan 10 2015, 3:48pm
Post #10 of 17
(1034 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A different ''Hobbit'' book (Fanfiction)
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The reason why I wrote this is because I found the event from the book not that serious. Peter Jackson tried to make the an adaptation based on the style from the original trilogy. In some way he managed to do right in many things. I think if Tolkien had written with some of my ideas like easterlings tribe travelling with Smaug to invade Erebor and Dale, and established a mini Angmar realm there, it would be easier for filmmakers to adapt the book, without adding too much changes as Jackson did with the Hobbit trilogy.
Haven't figured out how to get Bilbo into the story yet. It's a hard one.
(This post was edited by Victariongreyjoy on Jan 10 2015, 3:53pm)
|
|
|
squire
Half-elven
Jan 10 2015, 4:05pm
Post #11 of 17
(1037 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Excellent analysis of Tolkien's multidimensionality
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I agree that "gamer-ish" is not such a great term, compared to novelistic and mythic!
I'd add that, as far as I can see, Tolkien's interest in the "game-like" aspects of his creation is the least prominent of the three you identify. Sure, he mentions the balance of forces, describes the strength of fortifications, and recounts tactical details of fights. But as many of us have noticed, these are the parts of the story that seem to hold together least successfully, or to make the least sense in "real world" terms (which are the terms in which they're given - presumably swords are swords and a stone wall is a stone wall, in Middle-earth and our real Earth). Those interested in pursuing the "vast game" (Tolkien's term!) spot these problems quickly, and may even become frustrated at Tolkien's apparent lack of attention to consistency, cause and effect, and history in this regard.
As you say, the "Eagles" question comes up comically often; and the Balrog wings question is of the same order, really, since it relates to the powers or capabilities of the Balrog or balrogs in their various fights with good guys. I can't think how many sincere but hopeless questions I've seen over the years about why this "Maia" can or can't defeat that "Maia" in some kind of showdown - unanswerable questions because Tolkien really had no interest in the specific "powers" of a Maia or even a Vala, any more than he did in the genetic biology of the Half-elven (Got a problem about mortals breeding with immortals? "I do not care" - JRRT, Letter 153)
I think that with Tolkien, the mythic element trumps all others. Sure, he enjoys description, and conflicting forces, and the entire atmosphere of the epic battle in an epic world (which is what gaming is all about, as far as I can see), but his heart is in the origins and inner meanings of old tales, and the importance of retelling those tales today for today's audiences: to him the only battle of importance is the battle of the soul, not the battle of the sword.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
 = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 10 2015, 4:24pm
Post #12 of 17
(1022 views)
Shortcut
|
When you say "the original trilogy": you realise that The Hobbit (Book) was published as a children's story many years before Tolkien had even started on Lord of the Rings?
Tolkien did a bit of retrofitting: he persuaded his publisher to allow him to rewrite a bit of the hobbit to fit in with his new ideas, and there's an Unfinished Tale "the Quest for Erebor" in which he tries to tie the Hobbit adventures into a wider context. But maybe The Hobbit lacks elements you like in LOTR because of its original market (children) and because it was written before Tolkien had invented/discovered a lit that appears in LOTR.
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 10 2015, 9:57pm
Post #13 of 17
(1008 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Gamish? Gamey? (No, sounds like iffy meat), gamoid? Gamic?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think it's certainly something some folks like: for example it's what was chosen as a selling feature in Advertising copy about this book:
Bestselling author Brandon Sanderson brings his unique brand of epic storytelling to this engrossing tale of danger and suspense. With his trademark skills in worldbuilding, Sanderson has created a magic system that is so inventive and detailed that listeners who appreciate games of strategy and tactics just may want to bring Rithmatics to life in our world.
Marketing Copy about The Rithmatist By Brandon Sanderson, in marketing material from www.audible.co.uk I've not read / heard this book: I just noted this blurb and was interested in it as an example of a "gamic" approach. So maybe it's the kind of story where you could work out what would happen in this or that showdown, because the author has carefully worked out all the necessary details, as part of what makes the story good.
You could be reading a review of Tolkien in that quote: until you get to the detailed magic system bit. Tolkien goes for masterly vagueness in that regard! But so skillful is it that it looks as if there ought to be an answer to all the gamic questions...
Thanks for the words of appreciation!
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
|
|
|
Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jan 11 2015, 12:53am
Post #14 of 17
(1023 views)
Shortcut
|
squire, you remind us of all the threads about whether X could defeat Y (and TORn has a whole board devoted to this topic), but it seems to me that Tolkien actually goes out of his way to avoid resolving most of these. Yes, Gandalf and the Balrog fight it out memorably (though off stage), and yes the Five Armies do battle even though the reader (observing through Bilbo's eyes) misses most of the action. But think of all the showdowns that Tolkien goes out of his way to avoid:
* Dwarves v. Smaug: Smaug dies of is own hubris, assaulting Laketown until dispatched by a minor walk-on character.
* Aragorn v. the Nine: he brandishes a torch, and they flee.
* Frodo v. the Nine: Frodo flees across the river, while Aragorn watches and the river (inspired by Elrond, whom we haven't even met yet) sweeps them away.
* The Fellowship v. Orcs: the orcs aren't interested in the Fellowship, they just want to carry Hobbits to Saruman, and end up being wiped out by a new element, the Rohirrim, though not before leaving one casualty.
* Gandalf v. the Witch King: wow, everyone's looking forward to that one, but after a great buildup a cock crows and WK goes off to do something else.
* The Dead v. the Corsairs: everyone flees the Dead, and it's never clear whether they could actually damage anyone; the point is they showed up when commanded.
* Frodo v. Gollum in Mt. Doom: Gollum falls into the fire, a victim of Frodo's curse but no real fight.
The most interesting conflicts are the ones that look really one-sided: Fingolfin v. Morgoth; Éowyn v. Witch King; Sam v. Shelob. The conflicts that Tolkien cares about are the ones that pit weak against strong, and he loads the dice for the weak all he can. Ok, Fingolfin loses, but only after inflicting serious damage on Satan himself. In other words, the interesting aspect isn't relative power or even guile, but moral courage -- which, after all, is what Tolkien's books are about, not battles of any kind. That is the whole point of Bilbo in The Hobbit, and that tale without Bilbo and his quest for moral courage is nothing but a game.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Jan 11 2015, 12:55am)
|
|
|
noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 11 2015, 12:21pm
Post #16 of 17
(1001 views)
Shortcut
|
|
well yes, but also "Tastes great... less filling?"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think that's a good point - without the emphasis on moral courage , fate versus free will and other Tolkien themes, Tolkien would become... a lot more like a good many of his imitators in the fantasy genre. Personally I'd like the result less, I think: I tend not to enjoy stories that are "gamic" and little else, though of course other people do and are welcome to. (I'm aware of the danger of appearing to 'NARF' people who like something other than what like, and I don't mean to Mr Frodo, I don't).
As regards Tolkien himself, I think we are in the lucky position of "Tastes great... less filling" as it says in one of this site's profile questions (I remember I had to look that up, so for anyone else who is confused, I can explain that it is a slogan from a television commercial for beer. Patrons would be shown getting into comical fights -verbal or physical -over which statement about the product was correct, the implication being that they both were.) What I mean is that "gamic" discussions are fun to a point - I'm thinking for example of one about how Gollum managed to get out of Moria after Gandalf destroys the bridge to the exit http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=568598#568598 (Our suggested answer: Up the ventilation shafts, tropically enough http://tvtropes.org/...m=Main.AirVentEscape)
Similarly, I can enjoy stories such as Aunt Dora's Chance Meeting at Rivendell (and indeed, I did enjoy that particular story) - its a way of enjoying examining and solving these problems in fan fiction, rather than in forum discussion.
But personally I don't mind if there is no likely gamic solution. I'm recalling, for example, Bracegirdle's thread about estimating the size & weight of the Stone of Erech (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=725982#725982 ) It rapidly becomes clear that such an object is not something you could all that feasibly store on a ship prepped for ready escape as a persecuted Numenorean religious minority, let alone lug it somehow or another up to the site in which it appears in LOTR. One would be forced to resort to phlebotinium. But I suggest this doesn't matter - as I see it (others might disagree), the point of the Strone of Erech is to set the Numenoreans up to be a fading culture that was once mighty to an almost incomprehensible degree. We're invited to be like Dark Ages Britons , admiring and sometimes adapting the works of the departed Romans, whose engineering solutions and resources are long gone and forgotten.
Moreover, I think that sometimes mentally or in writing trying to mess with the story is a good way of understanding it better. For example, we had a good and interesting discussion (with splendid observations by Squire) of the article " Cory Doctorow: "Genderswitched Bilbo makes The Hobbit a better read"http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=695984#695984
Some people did find that offensive I recall though (one post no longer appears in the thread, after intervention by an admin)
Phew, my posts are getting long - but I'm trying to study & explain what appeals to me, and at the same time I'm eager not 'NARF' anyone to whom different things appeal.
To visualise that a bit:
[Others were there at the time & I was not - but I believe there was once upon a time few users who used to dismiss anybody who didn't agree with them as "Not A Real Fan". So ridiculous was it as a debating tactic that people took to badging themselves 'NARF' . ]
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
|
|
|
swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 13 2015, 6:59pm
Post #17 of 17
(1017 views)
Shortcut
|
You've pointed out something I never really thought of: the various elements to Tolkien's tales.
I tend to approach them from character first, then the mythic elements. I have gamed, but in the ancient way of sitting around a table full of soda and chips and dice and paper and friends and shouting and rolling dice and shouting. And that usually involved small fellowships wandering on quests, not vast armies.
For our author:
Character development is key to a good tale. Of course, I like character driven plots, not plot driven characters.
Understanding the mythic elements deepens a story beyond the kind of thing you might find in the news headlines. Mythic elements go below the surface, to the deep dark places we all share, we all know instinctively. The illogical, non-scientific places, where eagles don't fly the ring to Mordor, but a Hobbit can walk there unseen, where a dragon's greed is his downfall, and the wisdom of bowmen and Elvenkings is an adjunct to the uncertain bravery of one small Hobbit.
Do write your tale. it may begin as a fanfiction, and that is as good a training ground as any. You may rewrite it and discover your own world (I hear you can publish for free on Amazon). Either way, write, get beta readers if you can, get feedback and advice, but don't listen to all of it. Write your tale, don't worry if everyone doesn't like it (some will, some won't), but if you keep pouring words into your keyboard, eventually you will be awesome.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
|
|
|
|
|
