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HeadingSouth
Bree
Jan 8 2015, 6:41am
Post #1 of 37
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Re-watched FOTR the other day, and I forgot how rushed it feels
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I re-watched The Fellowship Of The Ring Theatrical cut the other day, after not having seen it in a while, and I was amazed as to how rushed it feels. It sometimes feels a little too much like the film-makers are trying to get the characters to the next location in a rush in terms of what we are shown.
I still think it's the best of the films, but it does annoy me how Jackson has a clear preference of action over dialogue.
Also, some of the lines being spoken by different characters than in the source material begs the question as to why?
'tis a real shame that Ian Holm never played Frodo in film form after his brilliant performance in the radio adaption.
Sean Bean really steals the show, bringing a dimension to the character that wasn't in the script.
I was wondering if any other people, have a similar or the opposite opinion of the pacing of this film.
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Kim
Valinor
Jan 8 2015, 8:00am
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I just watched the FOTR EE the other day and felt it was quite leisurely, and that a lot of time was spent on the journey and with the characters. I only saw the TE a couple of times in the theater, so I don't remember how much was added for the EE, but I guess it does really make a difference.
#OneLastTime
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 8 2015, 2:15pm
Post #3 of 37
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Perhaps HeadingSouth is comparing the pace of the movie with that of the book. It does tend to rush from event to event: Eliminating much of the time between Bilbo's birthday and Gandalf's return; dropping Fatty Bolger, the conspiracy of Frodo's friends, and Frodo's plan to feign a move to Crickhollow. And that is just from what happens before Frodo leaves the Shire. The trend continues with skipping the Old Forest, Tom Bombadil and the Barrow-downs.
Since so much is already altered, I might have introduced Aragorn by having Strider same the hobbits from the Barrow-wight. Or not. An alternate way of showing how Aragorn had spare weapons to give to teh hobbits might have been to have the Rangers keep a secret supply cache in or near Bree. The blades from Westernesse could have come from there.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 8 2015, 2:24pm)
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Starglass
Rivendell
Jan 8 2015, 2:29pm
Post #4 of 37
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I also just watched the FotR EE...
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And I personally agree with Kim. I was quite surprised when the first disc ended and everybody was only at Rivendell. I guess a lot of stuff happens in the second half, though, so maybe that will feel more rushed (haven't gotten to it yet).
If anything, FotR felt the least rushed out of the trilogy to me with RotK being the most rushed (esp. Frodo and Sam's storyline).
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Nuradar
Rohan
Jan 8 2015, 3:14pm
Post #5 of 37
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only compared with the book, IMO
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I think a lot of folks felt the movie was rushed, but I think that's in comparison to the book. The book drags on quite a bit, actually, and I remember PJ saying that he had to cut out portions of the book that did not directly contribute to pushing the plot along.
That was his main reason for excluding Tom Bombadil. He's fascinating, of course, and it would have been a pleasure to see him realized on screen, but he does nothing to the plot, so PJ had to make the decision to leave him and Goldberry out.
I can understand how FOTR feels rushed. The really do go a long distance in that book, but it just simply had to be condensed for the movie.
And I respectfully disagree with your thoughts on the dialogue. I don't think PJ, Fran, and Phillipa neglected dialogue for action. I think the dialogue in all 3 movies is among the best cinematic writing to come along in a very long time. So it may be a bit short on quantity, but very high in quality.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 8 2015, 3:44pm
Post #6 of 37
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In the commentaries New Line producers Barrie Osborne and Mark Ordesky noted how they had to keep pushing Jackson & Co. to keep the story moving along.
Even then, some reviews opined that too much time in the Shire, Rivendell, and Lothorien slowed the film down terribly. (I remember one critic saying something about having more than enough of happy dancing hobbits.) Then again, other critics said there was too much time spent on the road fighting monsters. Shows you can't please everyone.
Frankly, when I watch I prefer the TE except I would have liked to have the Gift Giving scene. Which by the way, Jackson only agreed to the studio's pressure to cut it in return for permission and resources to do an Extended Edition.
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The tremendous landscape of Middle-earth, the psychological and moral universe of The Lord of the Rings, is built up by repetition, semi-repetition, suggestion, foreshadowing, recollection, echo, and reversal. Through it the story goes forward at its steady, human gait. There, and back again.
-Ursula K. LeGuin, Rhythmic Patterning in The Lord of the Rings
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jan 8 2015, 5:40pm
Post #7 of 37
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On the contrary, I find the pace to be spectacular...
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But I suppose I'm thinking in cinematic terms. Compared to the pacing of the book, yeah, it rushes things. But in terms of adapting the work into a 3 hour film, I'm not sure what else could be done. As a film, it's adventurous, bold and thrilling. I think Ian McKellen said, back in the day, that it was the cinematic equivalent of a page-turner (I'm paraphrasing there). And I don't believe that it sacrifices character for action. I've seldom been ever so moved by a film than I was in December of 2001 watching The Fellowship of the Ring (throughout multiple viewings, I don't think I was ever not reduced to tears by the time the end credits rolled).
I think both the Theatrical Cut and the Extended Edition of Fellowship are virtually perfect, but in some ways I'll always treasure the Theatrical just a little bit more, because the experience of watching it so many times in the theater is imprinted on my brain.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jan 8 2015, 5:42pm)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jan 8 2015, 6:46pm
Post #8 of 37
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"I re-watched The Fellowship Of The Ring Theatrical cut the other day..."
Well there's your problem right there.
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Name
Rohan
Jan 8 2015, 9:39pm
Post #9 of 37
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I just watched the Theatrical Cut as well (for the first time ever actually)
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And while it is rushed in parts, I actually think the pacing is somewhat better than that of the Extended Edition, which really slogs along at certain times. (The EE is still pretty great though  )
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 9 2015, 2:53am
Post #10 of 37
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Yes, all the theatrical versions seemed rushed to me including TH but
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I don't fault Peter Jackson for that, at least not anymore(or at least not at the moment...) The EE's pretty much work for me and that's all I've seen outside of the theatre.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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HeadingSouth
Bree
Jan 10 2015, 7:45pm
Post #11 of 37
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Expanding on my initial comment
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This film is certainly rushed compared to the book (which is a shame), but on this watch all the dialogue scenes felt a but quick for my taste, while the action scenes were too extended for my tastes (this was always the case).
While Jackson's films do have character, I think that as soon as there is an opportunity for action, Peter Jackson chooses action rather than dialogue. I think the films are quite Hollywood-ified. Also, I can understand why some feel that the films 'hammer' the emotion a bit. I do wish there was a bit more subtlety in the films.
Changing characters and their motivations are the worst changes, I find. That is done far too much and always for the worst.
This film is a rather simplified and fun telling of the story, but it could've been so much more, in my eyes.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 12 2015, 6:33pm
Post #12 of 37
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... as if the book wandered in a way that journeys actually happen. A sidetrack here, a stop there, a moment of terror, a moment of rest...
...a lovely, dithery, wandery book, exactly how a journey is. The hobbits fall in and out of danger and with each experience grow in wisdom, until by the time events are moving at a galloping pace, the Hobbits are much more grown up, much more experienced.
My one friend said of Tolkien "that man needed an editor"... I disagree.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 12 2015, 6:35pm
Post #13 of 37
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wile I truly love the books, and read them first, I find the films pace reasonable.
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 12 2015, 6:58pm
Post #14 of 37
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My one friend said of Tolkien "that man needed an editor"... I disagree.
I have said of Peter Jackson that he needs someone with a rolled-up newspaper to wrap him on the nose and say, "Bad, Peter! A good writer (or director) knows when to kill his children!"
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jan 12 2015, 7:01pm)
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 12 2015, 8:10pm
Post #15 of 37
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whenever I listen to the film commentaries
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I am struck by how carefully thought out and justified are the decisions they make about why to do things a certain way. I still disagree vehemently with some of the decisions but I don't think they are the result of sloppiness or laziness or lack of attention to detail.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 12 2015, 8:20pm
Post #16 of 37
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I am struck by how carefully thought out and justified are the decisions they make about why to do things a certain way. I still disagree vehemently with some of the decisions but I don't think they are the result of sloppiness or laziness or lack of attention to detail.
Even so, some of Jackson's changes and additions are not thought out in the context of creating an internally consistent universe. In this regard, I would call that a lack of attention to detail.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 13 2015, 6:24am
Post #17 of 37
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I just watched the bonus feature from DOS on all the detail that went into the design of Smaug
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and I can't bring myself to call this creative team "sloppy." I can grant that there are some areas that weren't done as thoroughly and as well as others, some which felt chaotic and some which were inconsistent. But... when I think of all the things that were done so amazingly well--when I listen to all the thought that went in to so much of the films, I can't bring myself to attribute the flaws to anything that sounds like carelessness. It makes me feel a bit shabby about some of the complaints I've made in the past.
I'm definitely not saying everyone should feel that way about it. I'm not even promising that I won't say something really cranky about the films next week. And I will still find it interesting to engage in critical discussion. I'm just saying at this moment I'm so much in awe of all the things that were done well and even magnificently that I would feel shabby and not particularly accurate to suggest that the things I'm disappointed in were due to lack of care or effort.
Oop, we were talking about FOTR and now I'm talking about TH. Okay, so now I'm being sloppin you can whack me on the nose with a metaphorical newpaper if you wish!
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
(This post was edited by Gwytha on Jan 13 2015, 6:29am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 13 2015, 1:24pm
Post #18 of 37
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I don't disagree with your main point.
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I won't argue with you about dragon contruction and the amount of detail that went into designing and building creatures, sets and props. But, that still leaves issues of inconsistent writing, missing time, etc.; Peter Jackson has made himself a bit famous in these movies for his tendency to play fast and loose with time and distance.
I give you the example of Durin's Day. In Bard's house, while Bard is retreaving his improvised weapons for the Dwarves, Balin remarks that Durin's Day begins "the morn after next." In other words, in two days. That evening the Company attempts to raid the Lake-town armory and is caught and brought before the Master, who decides to offer them aid. When they leave Lake-town the next morning (minus Fili, Kili, Oin and Bofur) it is somehow already the morning of Durin's Day--an entire day has vanished with no explanation (and this is the extended edition that I am looking at). In addition, the Company manages to reach the Lonely Mountain and locate the Secret Door all in one single day. The journey from Esgaroth to the Mountain, alone, takes three days in the book; it took another week to find the Secret Door (with Durin's Day still days or weeks away).
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 13 2015, 4:30pm
Post #19 of 37
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"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 14 2015, 4:22am
Post #20 of 37
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I didn't notice that inconsistency but I've noticed others.
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I just wouldn't describe the cause as sloppiness. I agree the product contains flaws. But I don't see them as due to lazy or sloppy behavior on the part of its makers.
I'm not sure what to attribute the flaws to but I suspect having too much to do in the amount of time available. Perhaps an excess of attention was paid to getting Smaug right, but then Smaug (or other wonderful parts of any of the films)would have been diminished had those other details been better handled(although I was a little chagrined that Smaug wasn't a nice red or orange shade like in Tolkien's illustration).
I'm all in favor of criticism, not least because I hope whoever does the next remake in say another 20 years or so, is paying attention to it.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 14 2015, 12:20pm
Post #21 of 37
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You are very generous, Gwytha.
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You are also perhaps nonjudgemental to a fault. However, I haven't accused Jackson or any of his crew of laziness.
"The Great Scaly One protects us from alien invaders and ourselves with his fiery atomic love. It can be a tough love - the “folly of man” and all that - but Godzilla is a fair god.
"Godzilla is totally accepting of all people and faiths. For it is written that liberal or conservative, Christian or Muslim or Jew, straight or gay, all people sound pretty much the identical as they are crushed beneath his mighty feet." - Tony Isabella, The First Church of Godzilla (Reform)
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 14 2015, 5:23pm
Post #22 of 37
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I have to restrain my nonjudgmentalness at work sometimes to keep myself out of trouble. And I apologize if I seemed to be saying you called anyone lazy, though I think that was in someone's post--I think I was responding to the thread in a more general way there.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 15 2015, 9:04pm
Post #23 of 37
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There was an extra day of travel from Lake-town to the Mountain, thus the travel montage. Or did Thorin say that Durin's Day was the same as the one they left Lake-town?
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Jan 15 2015, 9:11pm
Post #24 of 37
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Bilbo: "You do know we're one short; where's Bofur?"
Thorin: "If he's not here, we leave him behind."
Balin: "We have to, if we're to find the door before nightfall. We can risk no more delays."
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 15 2015, 9:15pm
Post #25 of 37
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Your memory of the script amazes me, yet again! 
Out of curiosity... Just how many times did you see the film? 100? 
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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