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acuppajo
Registered User
Jan 7 2015, 9:08am
Post #1 of 22
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How do I learn Elvish script?
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Does anyone know a Tolkien scholar who would know how to write the word "always" in Elvish script?
I found this link, but when I tried to write it from the Elvish alphabet and a guide, it seemed like it was incorrect:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/da/16/31/da1631fbbcee1c574567503ce9de4114.jpg
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 7 2015, 11:17am
Post #2 of 22
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The Tengwar Transcriber: http://www.tengwar.art.pl/...r/ott/start.php?l=en
Is this what you're looking for, a transcriber only, not a translator (that is, translating the word into the Quenya or Sindarin equivalent before writing it in the script)?
Oh - and welcome to TORn! 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 7 2015, 3:15pm
Post #3 of 22
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If the Quenya word oio might do then you could just copy Tolkien writing this in the tengwar...
... reproduced in the following link at the start of the word Oiolosseo "from Mount Everwhite", shown here in Vincente Velasco's reproduction at:
http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/namteng.pdf
Mr. Velasco notes (in the notes below the illustration): "Oiolosseo: The diphthong oi is written with the omatehta for o above the semivowel tengwa yanta."
So that gives you oi in the Elvish letters (shown in red in one of the pictures in the link)... and as you can see Tolkien follows that with a short carrier with another o-tehta above it, for oio... before the losseo part.
oio could mean "endless period" or "ever" as in Oiolaire "Ever-summer" or Oiolosse "Everwhite"
So that suggested, I'm guessing you still want English "always" written with the Elvish letters 
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 7 2015, 3:28pm)
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acuppajo
Registered User
Jan 7 2015, 9:42pm
Post #4 of 22
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thanks for your reply and welcome!! :)
actually, yes, i am looking for a translator to translate the word into quenya/sindarin before writing it in script. do you know where i could find that?
i really want a tattoo, but i've seen a bunch of sites where people have gotten elvish tattoos that are incorrect. i really do not want to do that haha
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acuppajo
Registered User
Jan 7 2015, 9:51pm
Post #5 of 22
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thanks for your reply :)
okay, so if i understand this correctly, that one red character in the link you provided is the translation for oio? that is so much shorter than i thought it would be haha, so i guess i do still want the english written with elvish letters.
do you know what kind of script/what this is called?:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/da/16/31/da1631fbbcee1c574567503ce9de4114.jpg
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 8 2015, 1:56pm
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To be clearer maybe, in the linked illustration the word Oiolosseo is found in the seventh line from the top, meaning the seventh line of the 'main section' (in other words, not counting the large green line [the word Namįrie] nor the line of smaller writing beneath that).
In the seventh line there are three words with parts in red, and oi is in the third word with red in it. But that's just to help you find this part of the word...
... the Quenya word oio is this red part plus another vowel -- another o-tehta (looks like a 'curl') that sits atop a short carrier (a short carrier looks like an i without a dot).
So you've got: yanta with an o-tehta above it (again that much is in red in the word Oiolosseo, sort of like if I did this in my Roman transcription: Oiolosseo) and a short carrier with an o-tehta above it.
Still I agree it's not very long... but it will hurt less then, if tattoos hurt
And you will have an Elvish word written in the Elvish characters, as written by JRRT himself!
If you want the English word always written in the Elvish letters then you are looking for a transcription but I cannot 'show' you how to write that in the same sense as I can with oio... or at least I don't know if it is written correctly (in a way I might agree with) anywhere on the world wide web!
Maybe someone else can help you with the English. Tolkien himself wrote some English texts using the Elvish letters, but I don't recall if this word is in any of the examples.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 8 2015, 2:08pm)
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acuppajo
Registered User
Jan 8 2015, 7:39pm
Post #7 of 22
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I found a Quenya word list at http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/quenya.htm#Heading5
According to this list, which cites a journal publishing edited Tolkien material, the Quenya word for ALWAYS is illumė!
Elvish script is called Tengwar, correct? I apologize for the very basic questions, I am new at this!
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 9 2015, 2:26pm
Post #8 of 22
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Yes illume appears to be part of Tolkien's Catholic prayers in Quenya. Oio "ever" came to mind easier at it was published by Tolkien himself and it attested in his stories, but if you would rather illume (published in Vinyar Tengwar 44) all I can do here is describe how to write it, instead of show you.
In my opinion, begin with...
a short carrier with a dot over it (the i-tehta looks like a dot)
then the letter called lambe (27) with a bar* inside the curl for LL, with a u-tehta over this letter (a u-tehta looks like a 'curl' open to the left)
then malta (18) with an e-tehta over it (an e-tehta looks like an acute accent)
And that's it. You still only have two letters in this mode apart from the vowel marks, as the bar in this example denotes a doubled L (*for an illustration of this see my earlier link and the seventh line again, and the word tintalle -- the first word in this line with red in it).
To find out what Elvish letter 'number 18' and 'number 27' look like, you can match the numbers to the numbers in the tengwar chart in the Appendices to The Return of The King. In other words find number 27 in the chart, and the basic form of the letter is next to it. I don't know if there are any charts on line, due to copyright concerns perhaps.
Plus, in the word Oiolosseo, you have already seen letter number 27 (L). The words malta and lambe are just the Quenya names of these letters.
And once you know the basic shapes of the Elvish letters, then you can choose a style that you like. Many seem to like the style as seen on the One Ring, although the language there is the Black Speech!
Still I admit, the style on the One is nice.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 9 2015, 2:50pm
Post #9 of 22
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... and I don't mean to cast doubt upon my suggestion, but if you are concerned with a tattoo being correct, I'll still note the distinctions here between oio (A) and illume (B):
A) a Quenya word attested in a Quenya context and published by Tolkien himself, and written by Tolkien himself in the Elvish letters -- or at least a 'word' as part of a longer word, I guess I should say
versus
B) a Quenya word written by Tolkien as part of a Catholic prayer (in a text never published by JRRT himself), and a suggestion about how to write this word in Elvish letters from some guy on the web...
... that guy being me (so far)
Again, I think I'm correct about how to write illume in the tengwar, and it's arguably not a difficult example, but you can hardly beat A when it comes to having a good source for being correct (unless JRRT himself made a mistake. Well he is human).
Of course the choice is yours!
Or maybe someone will add something here. And this said I think Tolkien himself would smile upon a choice made for artistic reasons as well.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 9 2015, 3:05pm
Post #10 of 22
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by the way "a short carrier with a dot over it"... to denote the first sound in illume...
... looks something like this i... a Roman i
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acuppajo
Registered User
Jan 10 2015, 2:12am
Post #11 of 22
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Wow that's a really clear explanation! You're so helpful :))
It sounds like this is correct then, based on your explanation and my consultation of the ROTK appendices!:
https://quenya101.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/illumc3ab-e1416660559713.png?w=500
I really like the top middle font as well as the top left font. But I totally forgot that that's the font on the Ring until you mentioned it!! Strange that it is so artistically appealing...
I feel I can guess which between oio and illume you consider more accurate.. ;D
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 10 2015, 3:25am
Post #12 of 22
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For some reason I can't see the pages you are linking to...
... but in any event I have to admit, the word illume looks more interesting to me (in the tengwar) than oio.
Found a couple examples, if this link works...
https://www.flickr.com/...9090@N02/8352656359/
So someone out there agrees with my spelling!
Why didn't I check the web first? I dunno
Hmm, first my link worked... now it's not! Drat.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 10 2015, 3:36am)
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Ostadan
Rivendell
Jan 10 2015, 4:49am
Post #13 of 22
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In 'Namariė', the word 'oialė' is translated in the text as 'for ever' and in the literal translation in the 'Road Goes Ever On' songbook as 'everlastingly'. It is an adverb, like 'always'; I think 'oio' is a stem, used in combining form, but I am not at all sure it appears (nor can appear) as an independent word. If the sense of 'for ever' and 'everlastingly' is close to what you want, this might be useful.
Note that 'The Road Goes Ever On' songbook includes JRRT's tengwar transcription of 'Namariė' (and 'A Elbereth Gilthoniel' as well). Before the posthumous publications began to appear, the songbook provided a huge chunk of what was 'known' about Elvish (and modes of writing it in with the tengwar) to those studying such matters. Come to think of it, I do not think any Quenya appears in tengwar anywhere else in Tolkien's writings published in his lifetime (Sindarin appears on the West-gate of Moria, of course). Or am I forgetting something?
For basic information on Tolkien's writing, you might want to look at my 2001 article:
http://greenbooks.theonering.net/...an/files/020201.html
(This post was edited by Ostadan on Jan 10 2015, 4:51am)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 10 2015, 1:27pm
Post #14 of 22
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Yes I began to wonder about...
[In reply to]
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... oio as a word in itself, which is why I added in an earlier post: '... or at least a 'word' as part of a longer word, I guess I should say.'
One site I saw listed oio as a word, but the references were all as part of a longer form.
Oiale would be better then. Thanks Ostadan! LOL! I didn't even check the whole lament.
And this word is written by JRRT in the tenth line (in the link I provided above)!
Plus it has lambe in it
I still like the look of illume in the tengwar, but oiale looks nice too.
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 10 2015, 1:32pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 10 2015, 1:50pm
Post #15 of 22
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... I missed oiale in the same lament, which is more surely a word in its own right as noted by Ostadan.
Hope you're not out getting oio needled into your arm!
Also, I just checked Tolkien's Words, Phrases and Passages, which notes (going by the editor's appendix for quick reference)...
oi- 'ever (everlastingly)'
oia 'everlasting'
oiala 'unceasing, without end, for ever'
oiale 'eternally, in eternity, everlastingly, forever'
oialea 'eternal'
The Silmarillion Appendix does note oio 'ever' but the Appendix is titled: Elements In Quenya And Sindarin Names
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 10 2015, 2:01pm)
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acuppajo
Registered User
Jan 12 2015, 6:35am
Post #16 of 22
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This is great, very helpful, thanks!
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acuppajo
Registered User
Jan 12 2015, 6:41am
Post #17 of 22
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that you provided is the same image as what I tried to link you to! I just tried my own link and it worked again so I'm not sure why it doesn't work for you :(
But this is great, I'm really excited about this now, I hope it doesn't hurt too much!
If you didn't check the web first, I'm curious, how do you know so much about Elvish without consulting the interwebs?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 12 2015, 12:03pm
Post #18 of 22
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... that if I had checked the web first, I could have shown you how I would write illume in the tengwar, without having to describe it all, since the picture I found by 'Morelen' is exactly what I described (using two different fonts).
But I'm curious too, have you decided on illume or oiale?
As Ostadan notes, and I myself began to wonder, oio as a word by itself became a question, and it could be an element, given the title to the Silmarillion Appendix. I should have suggested oiale from the first, as it is attested as is, instead of part of another word...
... and in fact checking The Road Goes Ever On (which I should have done earlier) Tolkien actually notes: "The element oi, oio meant 'ever, everlastingly. Cf oiale."
I mean, I guess one could have a Quenya 'element' for a tattoo, but I would go with a word like illume or oiale.
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acuppajo
Registered User
Jan 13 2015, 12:11am
Post #19 of 22
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on illume! Both look nice, but illume looks more artistically appealing to me :)
So oio is correct as well!
Isn't Quenya Elvish? Wouldn't all of these words have Quenya element?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 13 2015, 7:21pm
Post #20 of 22
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As for oio I would say it's correct as an element, but not necessarily correct as a word in itself. In addition to Tolkien's statement in The Road Goes Ever On, so far I can't find oio attested as a word by itself -- oiale is attested as a word in Galadriel's lament though, as Ostadan pointed out.
Quenya is one of the Elvish languages, yes, and Sindarin is another Elvish language. In theory there are not only a number of Elvish tongues or dialects (Vanyarin Quenya for instance), but there are also older forms of certain Elvish languages, kind of like Old English compared to Middle English or Modern English.
Languages change over time, and even an ancient tongue such as 'Exilic Quenya' (basically the form of Quenya the Noldorin Exiles brought to Middle-earth in the First Age) has an internal history, and sounded different in earlier times.
That said, generally speaking Tolkien worked mostly on Quenya and Sindarin (or earlier versions or languages that would 'become' Quenya and Sindarin).
Not to further complicate the matter, but the two 'main' Elvish tongues have an external history. Note, for example, the FAQ at...
http://www.elvish.org/FAQ.html
(This post was edited by Elthir on Jan 13 2015, 7:32pm)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
Jan 13 2015, 9:33pm
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I do agree with Carl Hostetter, yes...
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... I even go so far as to characterize anything not attested by Tolkien as Neo-elvish, to try and keep the distinction between Tolkien's actual examples and even well argued (or arguably well argued, if that makes sense) or well attested sentences written by others... that is, someone employing well attested words inflected in well attested ways and so on, so to speak.
I'm no expert in linguistics myself. Nor in the proper usagistics of English even!
Plus even 'simple' greetings ("Hello, my name is...") can be idiomatic. Until Words, Phrases and Passage was published (relatively later than a lot of texts) someone using namįrie in greeting would have likely been corrected.
Or still corrected today... possibly
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