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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jan 5 2015, 1:07am
Post #1 of 11
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The History of Arnor vs. Gondor
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I was always fascinated by Arnor when reading the Lord of the Rings trilogy. However, it gets such short shrift. Although it was home to the main capital of the Dunedain, its greatness is sometimes ignored or overshadowed so much by Gondor. For those of us who know the tale, we are familiar with why Arnor fell. It divided into three kingdoms and its population dwindled and was eventually overrun. However, what about its heyday? I wonder what splendors were there. Would Arnor at its zenith be greater than Gondor? I believe it would be, but there is little description of Annuminas. I think it would have been far greater than Minis Tirith or Osgiliath. How would life in Arnor differ from Gondor. How did the Dunedain of the North see themselves compared to the Dunedain of the South? Gondor eventually looked down on their Northern cousins. But as Aragorn proved, the stronger lineage remained in the North. With the little we know of Arnor, what do you think it was like? Similar to Gondor in many ways, yet different in many others? Any thoughts?
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jan 5 2015, 1:13am
Post #2 of 11
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My post got me to thinking of a second question. Would Arnor regain its ancient glory under Aragorn? Aragorn was fond of the North given he was from there, and he re-established Annuminas. So would he eventually move his royal seat there, or would it remain just a provincial capital? I would think that there was so much more going on in the South of Middle Earth than the North, he would have to give most of his attention to Gondor. After the Third Age, what would have been the great threats to the North to make Aragorn spend most of his time there? Dragons were gone and Orcs were on the wane. There weren't as many hostile nations in the North as in the South of ME? Would there be a reason for Aragorn to stay in the North more than in South? I'm sure the weather in Minas TIrith was much better to in the Winter :)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 5 2015, 2:27pm
Post #4 of 11
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I think that throughout the Third Age Gondor would have been considered greaater than Arnor due to the fact that Gondor continued to prosper through most of the Age, while Arnor suffered division and strife. At Arnor's height the kingdoms might have been comparable; although, I'm not sure that Arnor ever had any features quite as magnificent as the city of Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith) or the Argonath.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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PhantomS
Rohan
Jan 7 2015, 3:41pm
Post #5 of 11
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The Holy Kingdom versus the Holy Empire
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Arnor and Gondor seem to have one major difference- the number of humans who live in its territory. When Isildur and Anarion landed in the south they were greeted by many people at Pelargir ,while there were others like the land of Dol Amroth, the Northmen and the men of Rhovannion, all whose blood mixed into Gondor and made it powerful and strong. Arnor, on the other hand was always closer to external elements- the Elves, particularly Gilgalad and Elrond and Cirdan were their best allies, also with Hollin and the western gate of Khazad-dum nearby. Unfortunately Rhuadur also ended up being cosy with Angmar, helping end Arnor's existence. The real answer is perhaps Gondor has always relied on its own strength and power, but also strongly held unifying laws which is how it survived its own civil war intact; the Stewards were strict about inheritance and kept pretenders in check. It seemed like there was no equal position in Arnor, where a lot of princes seemed to do this job, which probably led to the splintering of the kingdom into 3. Aragorn seems to ride to the Shire's borders to meet with Mayor Sam, so his northern capital would be at Fornost rather than Annuminas, since the road to Fornost meets up with the road to the Shire at Bree.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 7 2015, 4:07pm
Post #6 of 11
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Annuminas, Northern Capitol of the Reunited Kingdom
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I don't know if Fornost remained abandoned, but Annuminas was the capitol of Arnor in the Fourth Age.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jan 7 2015, 7:43pm
Post #7 of 11
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I like the "Holy Empire" anology...
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In some ways, Arnor and Gondor are like the Holy Roman Empire... remember, it split into halves. The western half of the Roman Empire (Rome) eventually declined and came to an end, while the Eastern Empire (Byzantium) thrived for centuries after. In fact, the seat of the Empire was in Rome until it was moved to Constantinople... So Arnor is more like Rome (the western half of the empire) and Gondor is like Byzantine (the eastern half)... The two halves in history (and ME mythology) grew so far apart that few people even know that Byzantine was the eastern half of the Holy Roman Empire, and succeeded Rome. The same fate happened to Arnor in Middle Earth.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jan 7 2015, 7:52pm
Post #8 of 11
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Yeah, that's my pet peeve. Western historians invented "Byzantine" for the surviving, eastern Roman Empire, which no longer was based on the city of Rome, of course, and spoke Greek instead of Latin, but culturally and legally was Roman, and its people called themselves Romans until they were at last conquered in 1453. It's one of those big distortions that I wish were cleared up in textbooks. Anyway, you make a nice comparison: Arnor/West Rome splintered and succumbed to barbarians, while Gondor/East Rome endured many centuries longer to carry the banner of imperial dignity, even reaching new heights for awhile.
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squire
Half-elven
Jan 7 2015, 8:24pm
Post #9 of 11
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Remember that after Charlemagne died, his Holy Roman Empire was soon split into three competing kingdoms, which weakened it fatally. The designers of the New Line films had fun with this, while distorting the connection: they based the throne room in Minas Tirith on Charlemagne's in Rheims, I believe. (The distortion is that, being in Minas Tirith, the architecture should have been more eastern/Byzantine, not Romanesque as at Rheims!) Tolkien always associate Gondor not just with the South, but with the East: his analogy was Byzantium (he added Venice with its Eastern influences after visiting that city). The ancestral culture, Numenor, was in his mind more Egyptian than anything else. But he hated literalism in this regard, of course, and freely mixed this stuff up to his own taste.
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Bladerunner
Gondor
Jan 8 2015, 2:31am
Post #10 of 11
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...was a a distinct nation that came into existence after the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, and as they say, was neither holy, nor Roman nor an empire. The Western and Eastern Roman Empires existed prior to the Holy Roman Empire.
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HeWhoArisesinMight
Rivendell
Jan 8 2015, 4:03am
Post #11 of 11
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Actually, it was more Germanic than anything....
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