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cats16
Half-elven
Jan 2 2015, 8:59am
Post #1 of 39
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**'The Fellowship of the Ring' Discussion, Chapter Three: Three is Company; Part 3: "Hail, Elf Friend!"**
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“Hail, Elf Friend!”
Here we shall conclude our discussion of Chapter Three: Three is Company. Please feel free to keep the analysis coming on each of the three threads I have created!
After the initial encounter with the Black Rider, the hobbits continue onward several meters away from the Road to keep out of sight. As night approaches, they feel as if danger has been left behind and gradually ease their fears.
Frodo begins to sing a song.
1. How does Tolkien use the landscape to ostensibly de-escalate the suspense from the previous scene?
2. What are your thoughts on the song? What new glimpses into Frodo’s character might one find, given that he has sung twice thus far?
Suddenly they hear footsteps again coming from behind. While hiding, Frodo sees another Black Rider. His desire to put on the Ring is greater than before. As the Black Rider slowly approaches him, the sounds of merry voices scare it away into the night.
3. Why do you think Frodo felt a greater urge to put on the Ring? Do different Ringwraiths command a slightly different effect on the Ring, thus influencing how Frodo experiences its own power?
This read-through, I felt as if the sudden appearance of the Elves served a similar role to the Wood-elves in The Hobbit: advancing the plot quickly.
4. Why do you think these ‘chance meetings’ in Middle-earth work so well as plot devices? How does Tolkien strike the balance of a world including both fate and free will in an encounter such as this?
The Elves pass them by, and they begin to speak on friendly terms. Pippin bluntly reveals that there is a Black Rider nearby, and the Elves request that the hobbits follow them to their wood dwelling for the night.
5. In terms of their behavior, do the Elves in this scene appear to be a relic of the ‘Tra-la-la-lally’ Elves found in The Hobbit?
6. Do you see any notable significance in Gildor’s ancestry in the House of Finrod? Readers of The Silmarillion: any further thoughts on Gildor’s place in the greater legendarium, or his admission that they are ‘Exiles’?
They are led to their destination within the forest, and the hobbits eat and succumb to sleepiness. Frodo and Gildor speak of many things, most importantly about how the former might hope to leave the Shire safely despite the danger he faces.
7. What do you make of Frodo, Sam and Pippin’s paragraph-long inner thoughts as they observe the Elves?
8. What do you make of Gildor’s refusal to tell Frodo more about the Black Riders? Is Gildor taking a similar approach toward Frodo’s options Gandalf as was depicted in Chapter 2?
9. Do you have any further thoughts on their conversation?
And, finally:
10. What are your general thoughts on the chapter, as a whole?
11. What is the most important contribution to the story (as well as to Frodo’s character) in the chapter?
12. Are there any qualms you wish to share about the writing?
13. Any other final thoughts?
Thank you so much for enduring my line of questioning for the past two weeks! I have enjoyed it immensely, and hope to continue these conversations in the coming days as we progress onto Chapter 4.
Meanwhile, I hope everyone has been able to enjoy the beginning of the new year, both on TORn and in the real world.
Until next time,
Cats
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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a.s.
Valinor
Jan 2 2015, 1:30pm
Post #2 of 39
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Holy Elves, not just merry elves
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Suddenly they hear footsteps again coming from behind. While hiding, Frodo sees another Black Rider. His desire to put on the Ring is greater than before. As the Black Rider slowly approaches him, the sounds of merry voices scare it away into the night.
3. Why do you think Frodo felt a greater urge to put on the Ring? Do different Ringwraiths command a slightly different effect on the Ring, thus influencing how Frodo experiences its own power?
I don't know about the possible effect of different Nazgul on the Ring; it's an interesting thought.
But the voices of the Elves drive away thoughts of the Ring from Frodo's mind, and this is because High Elves are present, and in LOTR, in ME, High Elves are holy creatures. You have evil drawing close to Frodo and tempting him somehow to use the Ring, and then you have holiness approaching and suddenly he can stop desiring to put the Ring on.
I don't have UT, so can't look up an extensive citation here (maybe someone else can) but in Hammond and Scull's LOTR Reader's Companion there is a reference to the chapter in UT called "The Hunt for the Ring: "After dark, becoming acutely aware of the Ring, [Khamul] goes in pursuit; but is daunted by the sudden appearance of the Elves and the song of Elbereth. While Frodo is surrounded by the Elves, he cannot perceive the Ring clearly".
The High Elves are singing and, in effect, praying here, they are invoking Elbereth and walking in holiness, and this is affecting not only the Ringwraith (who can't withstand it) but also offering some kind of protection to Frodo.
Why do you think these ‘chance meetings’ in Middle-earth work so well as plot devices? How does Tolkien strike the balance of a world including both fate and free will in an encounter such as this?
I'm not sure it's specifically a "plot device" (although I see how it functions that way!). This encounter in the Shire explains much about Frodo (he is already known to the Elves, doesn't just "know about" Elves, he is already named an "Elf-friend", which we'll see in Rivendell puts him in very rarified company) and gives tantalizing but hidden clues to Elves--one of those long vistas of back history we discussed in another thread. These Elves are moving EAST, they aren't leaving ME at this moment, they have important business taking them away from the Havens. They shine in moonlight and starlight. They laugh a lot. They sing hymns to a Queen of the Stars. And we don't actually know what they are up to, these strange High Holy immortal creatures singing in the woods of the Shire.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 2 2015, 8:44pm
Post #3 of 39
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'As soon as the Elves depart Khamul renews his hunt, and reaching the ridge above Woodhall is aware that the Ring has been there. Failing to find the Bearer and feeling that he is drawing away, he summons his companion by cries. He is aware of the general direction that the Ring has taken, but not knowing of Frodo's rest in the wood, and believing him to have made straight eastwards, he and his companion ride over the fields. They visit Maggot while Frodo is still under the trees. Khamul then makes a mistake (probably because he imagines the Ringbearer as some mighty man, strong and swift): he does not look near the farm, but sends his companion down Causeway towards Overbourn, while he goes north along it towards the Bridge. They tryst to return and meet one another at night; but do so just too late. Frodo crosses by ferry just before Khamul arrives. His companion joins him soon after. Khamul is now well aware that the Ring has crossed the river; but the river is a barrier to his sense of its movement.' --Readers Companion
Here is the quote in full, however, as noted in the RC and UT, there were several acute difficulties in finalising the tale.
Before I attempt to enumerate them, here is an attempted summarisation of the Nazgul's movements from UT (Please note these are unfinished tales, and in some cases contradict or omit other portions of text) it may serve to help understand their movement before we talk about their capabilities:
Gollum is captured in Mordor where Sauron learns of 'Baggins' and 'Shire', as well as the discovery of his Ring.
He is later released to be tracked by servants of Mordor, but is captured by Aragorn and locked in the Woodland Realm.
Learning of this, Sauron fears that he might provide intelligence to his enemies, but his normal servants are hindered by Saruman who wishes the Ring for himself.
As a cover, he releases a simultaneous attack on Gondor and The Woodland Realm, to test the strength of Gondor, recapture Gollum, and obscure his objective in releasing the Nine.
Crossing the river invisibly under the Shadow of Fear recounted by Boromir, The Witch-King and five/four of his subordinates cross the Anduin to rendezvous with those posted in Dol Guldur near the Fields of Celebrant.
They are supplied with horses and, after finding no trace of the Ring or Gollum, waste several months working north from Gollum's ancestral home in the Vales of Anduin seeking the 'Shire'.
Late that summer they return from the Northern lands east of the Misty Mountains to find Sauron has learned of the reason for Boromir's departure from Gondor, that Gollum had eluded his servants, and he is very displeased.
From news of the dream of Faramir and Boromir, Sauron discerned that none of the Wise knew exactly where the Ring was, but having begun to daunt Saruman, figured he might know more of its probable location.
In fear, he commands the Nine to abandon secrecy and they hasten towards Isengard.
Once there Saruman tells them something different depending on the draft:
1. That Gandalf had escaped recently, and he might know where the Shire was, so they follow him. They do not find him, but Grima instead, who told them that Gandalf was in Edoras and also the location of the Shire that Saruman had withheld. In this version they are angry at Saruman's duplicity, but cannot do anything now.
2. In the second case, he finds Gandalf gone between the time he sees the Nine at the gate of Isengard and the time he goes to consult with him, seriously considering repentance of Evil. Wavering a bit, his pride re-asserted itself, and he lies to the Nine, saying that he had forced Gandalf to tell him where the Shire was, and gave directions. In this version, the Nine learn of Saruman's lies from the spies they capture on their way to the Shire.
Saruman sends out his own forces to recapture Gandalf, and send messages to Grima, and sent out spies to find the Ring, which he believed was in, or on its way to, Rivendell according to Faramir and Boromir's dream.
Splitting up into pairs, the W-K goes with the swiftest, and overhauls servants of Saruman who are able to provide detailed information and maps of the Shire (In some versions they are scouting for Saruman as he searches for the Ring, hauling 'leaf', or bringing in reports.).
Dispatching them to Bree to serve Sauron's purposes (These are the men in the Pony), He rides on with his two companions until they meet up with the rest, and force their way across the bridge at Sarn Ford, entering the Shire after scattering the Ranger guard.
Splitting forces again, he sends his men into the Shire to se if they can sense the Ring, as well as ordering that some riders guard the east borders of the Shire if they find no sign of the Ring. Khamul, the second most powerful wraith, is sent to Hobbiton to find the 'Baggins' who, according to Saruman's reports, lived there .
The W-K establishes a camp south of Bree and rouses the evil spirits of the Barrrows and Old Forest to help guard the east road out of the Shire.
Thus Khamul is the rider Gaffer Gamgee speaks to in Hobbiton. This is the one the above quote refers to, and from here the RC and LotR allows us to track the movements of the Nine. I won't give any more timeline because it is relatively simple to follow, but there are a few things that might make understanding it much easier.
1. The Nazgul were conceieved to have a fear of water. It was such that they were hesitant to cross any river but for a bridge where they could do so dry-shod.
2. Also, there is present the idea that water impairs their sense of detection, as well as the presence of Elves, and sunlight.
These were difficulties because it causes problems when you consider that the Nazgul had to cross many rivers to get to the Shire, Isengard, and other places. In many cases it would have been hundreds of miles out of their way to find a bridge. In some places it is rationalised that the prescence of their Captain, the Witch-King, steeled their resolve, but he was not present in all cases. So JRR himself admits it as, 'difficult to sustain'.
On the Nine's powers of detection, there are several notes:
1. The W-K was considered to sense the Ring most acutely and be the most terrible.
2. After him, Khamul was ranked second in ability, but also the most to be confused by sunlight.
3. Their powers of detection and terror increased drastically when they were together. When alone, they could sense the Ring to differing extents according to their ability, but generally they could only sense general direction and proximity at undefined range.
4. They could always sense their comrades clearly over great distances, no matter the conditions. It was described that at times of greatest confusion (Due to sunlight, Elves, water, or any other thing that frustrated them), they could sense only their comrades alone in a 'world of mist'.
5. Their unearthly cries were a form of communication over long distance, and often used to summon them to their Captain. While effective, it was hardly covert, so when close, they communicated in Black Speech.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
(This post was edited by Rembrethil on Jan 2 2015, 8:46pm)
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a.s.
Valinor
Jan 2 2015, 8:53pm
Post #4 of 39
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I get quite confused by the "movements" in LOTR (who goes where when, etc., including the Ringwraiths). It all sort of blurs in my head, beyond East and West movements.
Actually, though--and I suppose it wasn't very clear, re-reading my own post--I was acknowledging the brevity of the citation I can give for the fact that Frodo cannot clearly perceive the Ring when surrounded by the Elves, since I was trying to point out the contrast here between the Elvish influence on Frodo's perception of the Ring, and the Ringwraith's influence on same.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Jan 3 2015, 6:59am
Post #5 of 39
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When I think about the songs (sometimes I skip them entirely), I'm usually wondering, how do you sing these? At some point, I wrote in the margins of my book that the song to Elbereth goes well with the tune of "Greensleeves", but I had nothing for "Upon the hearth the fire is red". Since I have a Christmas carol theme going, I ran through a few and found that "Hark the Herald Angels Sing" will work for that one, so hooray!
Both "The road goes ever on" and "Upon the hearth" were written by Bilbo/inspired by Bilbo, and since hobbits typically do sing while walking, the songs don't reveal much about Frodo's character particularly. Leading the singing and choosing songs that keep up the energy and spirits of the group might show Frodo's leadership. But in "The road goes ever on", he's not even singing -- just reciting or chanting -- and the others don't join in. It's Frodo's reflective side showing there.
Where's Frodo?
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a.s.
Valinor
Jan 3 2015, 8:36am
Post #6 of 39
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NOT! when the hobbits are singing, of course, but when the Elves are singing, I hear choirs singing hymns in processional.
The Elvish song to Elbereth strongly resembles traditional Catholic hymns to Mary, especially those invoking her as "Star of the Sea" or Maris Stella. For example, here is Ave Maris Stella in Latin. Or the Salve Regina, the prayer of the exile to the Queen of Heaven. Or the traditional hymn in English, Hail Queen of Heaven, the Ocean Star.
Of course, you'd have to pretend you can't hear the organ in the Ave Maria above.  I'm sure there's a vocal only version on Youtube somewhere.....
As usual, I always feel compelled to point out that Tolkien wasn't attempting to equate the two in direct ways. There isn't a direct connection between Mary and Elbereth. There is, however, a direct influence of the hymns to Mary Star of the Ocean, on the hymns sung to Elbereth.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 3 2015, 12:12pm
Post #7 of 39
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Two Rider encounters - on by day, one by night
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I thin the timing of the 2 Rider encounters is crucial - I imagine the first one as being a chance contact: Khamul (the Black Rider encountered both these times) is presumably acting on information received from the Gaffer, that the Ring is a day's march away. So I imagine he's moving along the road in pursuit, and wasn't expecting t catch up so soon. The first contact happens late afternoon, putting the Rider at a disadvantage - perhaps both in terms of whether he's sure he's contacted the Ring, and in terms of doing whatever he plans to do when he does contact it.
I think the end of that first encounter, in which Frodo thinks the Rider turns aside into the trees suggests that the Rider has decided to follow this potential contact along slowly and wait for dark when his Ring-detector works better.
In the event, of course, the elves seem to spoil any chance of an attack the second time. One can imagine that the elves or their activities might jam any chance of detecting the ring; or that an attack on a company of elves might be more than one solitary Rider can manage.
It might be interesting to point out that Gildor &Co are the first of a series of Book 1 rescuers who bale the hapless hobbits out when they are in too deep: the sequence runs Gildor, Farmer Maggott, Tom Bombadill (twice), then Aragorn, and finally Glorfindel.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 3 2015, 12:24pm
Post #8 of 39
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"Elf-friend" and elf encounters
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What DO we think of this "elf-friend" business?
Gildor first uses the term in response to Frodo managing a bit of elvish - it seems a bit joking, acknowledging a courtesy. Perhaps it is as if Frodo had encountered a group of French people, greets them in French, and is rewarded by (a bit teasingly) being called a 'francophile'.
Later, after some explanation of Frodo's troubles. Gildor use the 'elf-friend' term again. It seems more serious now, and I wonder whether he is conferring some form of blessing, rather than making an observation. Whether this protects or armours or changes Frodo in any way is not explicit - left for the reader to decide, probably.
Later still, Elrond will make the most formal and elaborate declaration that Frodo is an elf friend (extending the 'francophile' idea, this would be like an award of the Legion d'honour.) 
I think this is a rare occasion in which we see elves outside their very established residences (unless Woodhall is very established...). We see the encounter from Sam and Pippin's POV briefly and this gives us the feeling of enchantment that the elves bring - faerie feelings of wonder and delight, which are as much dreamlike as they are like waking thought... These other two perspectives help, because there is plenty of business between Frodo and Gildor to report.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Jan 3 2015, 12:28pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 3 2015, 12:36pm
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Some of us had a good discussion before trying to work out why Gildor & Co don't realise that the fate of Middle-earth is at stake and break off their own activities to escort the Ring directly to Rivendell
http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=692971#692971
We didn't (of course) come to any settled conclusion. I think I can summarise the alternative theories as:
1) The elves don't care sufficiently
2) Gildor fails to understand enough of what is happening (and/or that he is reluctant to intervene in what seems to be some hush-hush wizardly project, in case he messes things up).
3) That Frodo is not to be directed, being a Chosen One of some sort - maybe the elves would go with him only if he asked.
4) It's a plot hole! (Clearly the rest of Book 1 must be very different if Frodo is chaperoned to Rivendell by somebody who is powerful & knows what is going on, whether that is Gandalf or Gildor...)
BTW - Gildor seems to know or guess what the Riders are, for all that he will not tell Frodo (or us the readership). I'm not sure how he knows that? Have the Nazgul appeared as Riders before? Or has Gildor got other information?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 3 2015, 1:21pm
Post #10 of 39
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...various words are used to describe the text that appears in verse (and performances of it by the characters). Sometimes it's clear there is a tune (e.g. one is mentioned for Frodo's song at the Prancing Pony), sometimes not (e.g. is Gimli singing a song in Moria, or chanting verses?).
"Chant" of course can suggest either pitched singing (e.g. plainchant, like this version of "Salve Regina" http://open.spotify.com/...WvF7SBcDCfrf2DdfXcPu) or speaking rhythmically.
I too imagine that thousand-year lifespans available and a culture that emphasises the arts would result in the elves singing something pretty polished.
Interesting, FindingFrodo, to try fitting the words to known tunes ( a sort of Midle-earth One Song To The Tune Of Another - sounds like a good game! * ). As per Frodo's song in the Inn, it also would seem to be a Middle-earth practice!
Back to the elven song in our current chapter - "Iampierremenard" hasalso tried to set this - in this case setting the song to Fleet Foxes' Mykonos https://iampierremenard.wordpress.com/2011/09/page/2/ (the song with comments & a link to a recording on SoundCloud is lower down the page). What he's doing - as I understand it - is not an uber-polished, 500-years-in-rehersal elven version: he's more, in line with his particular self-imposed rules, making a version of the song. Not Noldor grade perhaps, but I like the idea behind it!
And, it's perfectly in the tradition of JRR Tolkein singing the Troll Song http://youtu.be/K9WmxwgW2J0 - to a traditional tune called (if I remember correctly , never a sure thing - Fox and Hens).
---
* One Song to the Tune of Another is already a game played during the spoof Radio Panel Show, "I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue" (BBC Radio 4 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qnwb). It became a joke in that show to preface that round with an over-explanation of the rules: these over-explanations could become quite amusing in themselves http://www.isihac.co.uk/...toae/ostttoae-d.html. If those confuse you as completely as intended, it might be better to listen (for example) to the words of "Anarchy in the UK" sung to the tune of "Singing in the Rain" http://youtu.be/iF40OA-tb_A
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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a.s.
Valinor
Jan 3 2015, 3:04pm
Post #11 of 39
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Gildor first uses the term in response to Frodo managing a bit of elvish - it seems a bit joking, acknowledging a courtesy. Perhaps it is as if Frodo had encountered a group of French people, greets them in French, and is rewarded by (a bit teasingly) being called a 'francophile'.
Later, after some explanation of Frodo's troubles. Gildor use the 'elf-friend' term again. It seems more serious now, and I wonder whether he is conferring some form of blessing, rather than making an observation. Whether this protects or armours or changes Frodo in any way is not explicit - left for the reader to decide, probably.
Later still, Elrond will make the most formal and elaborate declaration that Frodo is an elf friend (extending the 'francophile' idea, this would be like an award of the Legion d'honour.)
You're right: Gildor's first use of "elf-friend" seems just a courtesy title, and although I think it's apparent that Frodo knows High Elves and is known to them, this company appears to know him only as "with Bilbo". And Gildor acknowledges Bilbo in his first use of the epithet: "Here is a scholar of the Ancient Tongue! Bilbo was a good master. Hail, Elf-friend!" he says, bowing to Frodo.
His second use of Elf-friend appears to be a blessing and an invocation of something, and seems at that point to confer some special kind of recognition as a specific type of mortal, something called an "Elf-friend". Gildor says, "I name you Elf-friend" and from this point on in the story, others besides this company of Elves can see or know or intuit that Frodo has a special status. Goldberry sees it, as does Faramir.
Elrond's declaration is the second one bestowed on Frodo by a High Elven Lord.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 3 2015, 6:05pm
Post #12 of 39
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I've been off on a happy tangent, trying to find most incongruous tune to which I can set the words of Gildor's song...
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"Jailhouse Rock" (Elivis Presley)http://open.spotify.com/...yex9B1kBoRIuabBAc4m8 goes pretty well down to the chorus, but then it's difficult to sing "Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!" quickly enough. *
The French Punk Classic "Ca Plane Pour Moi" (Plastic Bertrand) http://open.spotify.com/...x4zW72qdZKBb8p6g80jb works fairly well too - with the bonus that "Gilthoniel! O Elbereth!" fits the well-known yodely bit of the song where the original lyrics are "Oo-oo-oo-oo/ Ca Plane Pour Moi" . I kinda like that. Anyway it does seem likely that "Queen of the Divan" is one of Lady Varda's titles...
* Specifically, the temptation is to sing "Gil - thon- i - el" to "Come - on - let's - rock!", which means you run out of music...
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Terazed
Bree
Jan 3 2015, 8:41pm
Post #13 of 39
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Tolkien sets all the songs in the chapter including the elven one in a meter designed to fit into a traditional folk song format. You could go over to www.contempator.com and try the lyrics out with the midi files over there and find a bunch of good fits. Tom's meanderings a little down the road look a bit more difficult to set at first glance but not impossible. Here are a couple folksy poems set to art songs in the mid twentieth century that you might think would be difficult to set:
The Monk and his Cat : http://youtu.be/EI8Fwgifeus
The Little Old Table: http://youtu.be/fq5nNwUUWPM
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 4 2015, 3:16am
Post #14 of 39
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After the initial encounter with the Black Rider, the hobbits continue onward several meters away from the Road to keep out of sight. As night approaches, they feel as if danger has been left behind and gradually ease their fears. Frodo begins to sing a song.
1. How does Tolkien use the landscape to ostensibly de-escalate the suspense from the previous scene?
Like many of JRRT's landscape descriptions it is rich with both meaning and language. Thick young trees, thickets, hazel - all bring to mind I think natural bounty and peace. The use of 'thicker' to describe the trees and shortly after 'brakes' and 'thickets' strike me as very rich - to the aural tongue, as it were - language to use which give such a lushness to the night landscape. (Squire, this bit reminds me of that highly enjoyable TAS piece you wrote about Ithilen, here is the TAS post with the link):
The First TAS
Even the layout of the Elven camp, with the shoulders of earth that open to a soft swell ahead - both feel and sound comforting and appeal psychologically.
2. What are your thoughts on the song? What new glimpses into Frodo's character might one find, given that he has sung twice thus far?
Much of Frodo's song seems to link him to Bilbo, and following in Bilbo's footsteps. Both literally and figuratively!
3. Why do you think Frodo felt a greater urge to put on the Ring? Do different Ringwraiths command a slightly different effect on the Ring, thus influencing how Frodo experiences its own power?
I think it relates directly to what Gandalf said in Shadows of the Past: a Ring of power looks after itself. In this case, looking after itself means calling to like spirits and thus coming closer to Sauron and (for it) to home. It ceratinly to me possesses that much agency, and likely a terrible pining for what it perceives and the comfort of Sauron so it has more than adequate motivation to attempt to make its bearer help it along its way. *IF* we grant it that sort of intelligence; if not, it may be the former, a mere blind desire and sense of 'likeness' (family?) in the Black Rider. In both cases, some sort of agency I think is indicated.
4. Why do you think these 'chance meetings' in Middle-earth work so well as plot devices? How does Tolkien strike the balance of a world including both fate and free will in an encounter such as this?
Excellent points Cats. He is doing exactly that: balancing the sense of Fate in the larger and unseen spiritual world surrounding Middle-earth with the free will and free choice of the creatures who dwell under and removed from those spiritual realms. I think the balance lies in the 'chance meetings' having open-ended options. The Elves for example, do not force Frodo to surrender the Ring, nor do they conclusively advise him. The choice remains Frodo's. In another chance meeting, Gandalf and Thorin work out an unlikely alliance...which is takes all of Gandalf's skill and perseverance to carry off.
The Elves pass them by, and they begin to speak on friendly terms. Pippin bluntly reveals that there is a Black Rider nearby, and the Elves request that the hobbits follow them to their wood dwelling for the night.
5. In terms of their behavior, do the Elves in this scene appear to be a relic of the 'tra-la-lally' Elves found in 'The Hobbit'?
Another excellent point; a suitably muted relic. They have evening festivities in their woodland halls beneath the stars, and they sing and have a merriness to them. But the silliness of the 'dripping beard' jokes in not quite present; though they laugh freely with Frodo at his use of the language. I think its a very skilled techinical merge of the two faces of Elvendom, since the journey with the Firstborn here must begin on a similar footing as not to strike a disharmonious chord; but the ancient-ness and the wisdom must come through. Even a touch of the fear of the Enemy comes through in Gildor's speech to Frodo at the end of the night. Also referring to the unknown, even to Elves, elements swirling around Frodo's trip, in Gildor's stating 'there may be more than chance'.
6. Do you see any notable significance in Gildor's ancestry in the House of Finrod? Readers of 'The Silmarillion': any further thoughts on Gildor's place in the greater legendarium, or his admission that they are 'Exiles'?
That's tricky. Once Finrod Felagund has no wife because Amarie will not leave the Blessed Realm, a son becomes problematic. Does 'house of Finrod' refer perhaps to an Elf who served Felagund in Nargothrond instead? 'House' then becoming more of a feudal honorific versus familial link?
Fascinating to me if that becomes the link; as Gildor might have known Turin, and would have likely seen a Dragon's attack with his own eyes. His sense of evil would be significant as he had seen massive destruction by Glaurung.
7. What do you make of Frodo, Sam and Pippin's paragraph-long inner thoughts as they observe the Elves?
Fantastic character insights. I love with the flowery complexity of Elvendom, Sam thinks if he could grow apples like that, he'd call himself a gardener. Both a homespun thought and high praise from Sam.
8. What do you make of Gildor's refusal to tell Frodo more about the Black Riders? Is Gildor taking a similar approach toward Frodo's options Gandalf as was depicted in Chapter 2?
I think here the Elf knows he cannot fully explain to Frodo the agelong story behind the Riders; for a mortal to hear of so many years of evil and dark deeds, and the import of it all, might break that mortals' spirit maybe. Maybe they simply lack a common language, common reference points, for Gildor to wade into the full explanation?
11. What is the most important contribution to the story (as well as to Frodo's character) in the chapter?
For me, that would be the introduction of the Elves. As I did nor read The Hobbit first, this was simply a new thing to me while reading LOTR. Only later did I appreciate the changed characterization and how it flowed together (almost seamlessly, if not quite) between the books. I say 'not quite' because the more mischievious behind-the-hedge 'fearie' Elves of TH will never quite match with the more sad and timeless Elves of LOTR. A more mythic and legendary 'faerie' there.
Thank you Cats, for a wonderful set of chapter discussions.
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 4 2015, 3:20am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 4 2015, 11:40am
Post #15 of 39
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I was thinking - this meeting with Gildor &Co is significant in that it's the first time we see and hear "outsiders" (except Gandalf) in any detail. That's one of the things this chapter is about, perhaps - if Ch1 establishes the Shire and hands over from Bilbo to Frodo, & Ch2 establishes The Peril, This Chapter is where the outside world starts breaking into the Shire: or perhaps it is more accurate to say this is where the barriers between the Shire and the outside world start to blur. This exposes our heroes to another culture - a bit like dwarves in kilts...
(Art by dwalinroxxx - larger version here)
(OK, probably not much like dwarves with RR kilts in a mist - that was really just to say "Hi" to Brethil  )
...but as Brethil says "the journey with the Firstborn here must begin on a similar footing as not to strike a disharmonious chord; but the ancient-ness and the wisdom must come through. "
I think it's worth pausing to admire Tolkien's control of dialogue: the elves do not speak like the hobbits (avoiding the fault in writing where all characters speak just the same - like the author does, presumably). Instead, Gildor's syntax and choices of words are slightly more archaic than the hobbits, except where, natually enough, Frodo quotes Gildor back at him ("The meaning of it is..."). But nor does Tolkien fall into the "forsooth poltroon, a pox on thy tushery * " trap of over-doing it. I recall reading an essay by Ursula Le Guin in which she points out how difficult this is to do - with reviews of fantasy authors who overdo it in one way or another. (She also points out that there seems to be soem rule in potboiler fantasy writing that wizards must use the subjunctive: would that I could oblige there).
As it is, I think the dialogue language does help set the mood.
--
* "tushery", I learned from a footnote in the Oxford World Classics version of Ivanhoe, is a term coined for psuedo- archaic language: of whcih Sir Walter Scott is certainly guilty sometimes, & his followers & imitators more so. It comes from the over-use of "tush" as a dismissive exclamation. Isn't that fun? It's nothing to do with ...er... the ZZ Top meaning.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Ethel Duath
Half-elven
Jan 4 2015, 4:42pm
Post #16 of 39
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In this section and also in many others it's so seamless I don't even notice it.
I do find it very jarring when shows and also historical fiction stories use inauthentic language. Sometimes, I can't put my finger on what is wrong. But my ears tell me somehow, and I find it takes me right out of the story. This is one way Tolkien keeps us in it.
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 5 2015, 12:46am
Post #17 of 39
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You are on a roll NoWiz!
I never before gave thought tot he fact that this is the first Elf we do meet within LotR. What might Tolkien's established audience from the Hobbit have expected? He had to at once show the continuity of the immortal beings, yet develop a distinct difference. No tra-la-la-la-lally-ing to Mordor would do.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jan 5 2015, 2:47am
Post #18 of 39
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I'm loving your use of graphics, Furincurunir!
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Very inspired, dear Wizard!
I take your point in strong agreement (violent agreement? maybe even Viking agreement? ) that the skill of writing with different syntax, intonation and 'accent' is not always done. Yet when it is, for me as a reader I can hear the difference in voice. Gildor always had a more high-Anglicized sound to my reading ears, because of the way his dialogue is written. Contrasting with Frodo's more soft and hesitant accent. It definitely allows for a conversation to be heard.
So 'get thee to a tushery' *isn't* Shakespeare? I'd swear I've read it somewhere.
BONUS graphic:
-Viking agreement-
(This post was edited by Brethil on Jan 5 2015, 2:55am)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jan 5 2015, 9:57am
Post #19 of 39
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Sam says later that he is impressed with the apples which the Elves have. I wonder how the Elves did manage to get such nice apples. Personally, I liken the apples in the Shire to those English ones like coxes, whilst the Elven ones were like the French or other varietes, looking very nice but lacking a bit in flavour in my opinion. Or maybe some of those mass-produced supermarket ones. But then how did the Elves manage to produce them in such a different way to those that Sam knew? Or did they simply get them from Farmer Maggot and Sam had only eaten local Hobbiton apples!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jan 5 2015, 3:36pm
Post #20 of 39
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"Everything you can do elves can do better..."
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"Everything you can do elves can do better.." (Terry Pratchett, Lords and Ladies)
I expect that includes apples.
My assumption as a reader is that Sam & Pippin are under the enchantments of faerie - so everything seems lovely, even if, under other circumstances it would be 'same as normal'.
I was wondering a little about the bread myself - apples one could feasibly forage, but you'd have to stop awhile somewhere with an oven to make bread.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Rembrethil
Tol Eressea
Jan 5 2015, 5:57pm
Post #21 of 39
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It sounds like the beginning of a an Irving Berlin parody: 
Elf: Anything you can do I can do better
... I can do anything better than you
Man: No, you can't
E: Yes, I can
M: No, you can't
E: Yes, I can
M: No, you can't
E: Yes, I can, yes, I can
M: Anything you can be I can be greater
... Sooner or later I'm greater than you
E: No, you're not
M: Yes, I am
E: No, you're not
M: Yes, I am
E: No, you're not
M: Yes, I am, yes I am
M: I can shape my fate beyond the Great Music
E: I can live forever and pass into the West
M: I will come to dominate Middle-Earth
E: You really want to?
M: Yes
E: Melkor tried too
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Jan 5 2015, 6:42pm
Post #22 of 39
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as my brain seems to have stopped working lately. Loving what everyone is saying though!
But I would like to point out that we never did get that tartan designed for the kilts we were all going to wear to the One Party.
Here's mine (designed on Scotweb Tartan design ):
Black and green field with the colors of the 3 elven rings and the One Ring running through it.
Sorry for highjacking the thread cats, and sorry for the hours you all may spend designing tartans. I really was addicting.
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
(This post was edited by dernwyn on Jan 6 2015, 12:21am)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jan 5 2015, 7:32pm
Post #23 of 39
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"Frodo Baggins, you have a lot to learn, and I hope you never learn it. "
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It is always a silly thing to give advice, but to give good advice is absolutely fatal.
-Oscar Wilde, The Portrait of Mr W.H.
1. How does Tolkien use the landscape to ostensibly de-escalate the suspense from the previous scene?
A lot of the features and the words to describe them are particularly English, thus friendly and familiar, at least to Englishpersons reading this.
2. What are your thoughts on the song?
Again, the song describes things in distinctly English words and phrasings.
What new glimpses into Frodo’s character might one find, given that he has sung twice thus far?
He’s already getting homesick.
Suddenly they hear footsteps again coming from behind. While hiding, Frodo sees another Black Rider. His desire to put on the Ring is greater than before. As the Black Rider slowly approaches him, the sounds of merry voices scare it away into the night.
3. Why do you think Frodo felt a greater urge to put on the Ring?
The more you think about committing a sin the easier it is to eventually do it. Indeed, such sins “sometimes more grievously wound the soul and are more dangerous than sins which are openly committed.” (Council of Trent’s 1551 Notes on Penance)
Do different Ringwraiths command a slightly different effect on the Ring, thus influencing how Frodo experiences its own power?
It seems the higher numbered tend to get distracted and wander off more than WiKi and Khamûl. Probably why there are only nine. Numbers ten onward would have the ultimate in Attention Deficit Nazgul Disorder : “Have… Squirrel!.. you …Shiny!...seen…Birdy!...Baggins? … Donuts!!”
This read-through, I felt as if the sudden appearance of the Elves served a similar role to the Wood-elves in The Hobbit: advancing the plot quickly.
4. Why do you think these ‘chance meetings’ in Middle-earth work so well as plot devices?
Middle-earth is the main character and all these encounters are character development.
How does Tolkien strike the balance of a world including both fate and free will in an encounter such as this?
Well, according to 14th century theologian Luis de Molina, God, or in this case Eru, can manipulate circumstances and then let free will take its course. For example, if you know two people would be perfect for each other you can manipulate the circumstances, like invite them both to a party, and let them hit it off on their own. Similarly, Eru knows the characters of Frodo, Sam, Merry, Gildor, and the rest of the elves so he can pretty well predict what they’ll do when they get together. That’s the difference: predict, not predicate.
The Elves pass them by, and they begin to speak on friendly terms. Pippin bluntly reveals that there is a Black Rider nearby, and the Elves request that the hobbits follow them to their wood dwelling for the night.
5. In terms of their behavior, do the Elves in this scene appear to be a relic of the ‘Tra-la-la-lally’ Elves found in The Hobbit?
Nor do they appear to be precursors of the dangerous manic-depressive elves of the Sil. So it’s extremely lucky the elves the hobbits met were on their meds.
6. Do you see any notable significance in Gildor’s ancestry in the House of Finrod?
Finrod tended to travel around a lot. Also, unlike a lot of elves, he made friends with a lot of other non-elven people. Apparently Gildor shares that wanderlust and the ability to network friends: Gildor seems to have informed Bombadil, Aragorn, Elrond, and Glorfindel that “the Nine were abroad, and that [Frodo was] astray bearing a great burden without guidance, for Gandalf had not returned." (Flight to the Ford)
BTW, I note in the musical version of The Lord of the Rings Gildor is changed into a female. The same thing happens to Glorfindel. (And some people complain about Tauriel!)
Readers of The Silmarillion: any further thoughts on Gildor’s place in the greater legendarium, or his admission that they are ‘Exiles’?
Apparently Finrod and Amarië got busy. Though that means Gildor was born post-Kinslaying in Eldarmar, which means he was banished for some other reason. Probably for tra-lal-lallying and other activities that disturbed the peace of the stuffy old Valar. He and Gandalf, they’d be mates.
(BTW, I bet the reason he visits Emyn Beraid is to use the Elostirion palantir to phone home for money. Kids!)
Also it makes sense Gildor’s song drove off the Ringwraith. It runs in the family:
[Sauron] chanted a song of wizardry,
Of piercing, opening, of treachery,
Revealing, uncovering, betraying.
Then sudden Felagund there swaying
Sang in answer a song of staying,
Resisting, battling against power,
Of secrets kept, strength like a tower,
And trust unbroken, freedom, escape;
Of changing and of shifting shape,
Of snares eluded, broken traps,
The prison opening, the chain that snaps.
Backwards and forwards swayed their song.
Reeling and foundering, as ever more strong
The chanting swelled, Felagund fought,
And all the magic and might he brought
Of Elvenesse into his words.
-The Sil, Of Beren and Luthien
(Of course Finrod eventually lost, but hey, this was Sauron, not "just" a Ringwraith!)
Also Finrod gave Beren the Ring of Barahir and swore to help him and his kin. Of course all this will help Aragorn become king and…
Hey, wait a minute! Hobbits are of the race of Men! Do you think the Bagginses are descended from Beren?
They are led to their destination within the forest, and the hobbits eat and succumb to sleepiness. Frodo and Gildor speak of many things, most importantly about how the former might hope to leave the Shire safely despite the danger he faces.
7. What do you make of Frodo, Sam and Pippin’s paragraph-long inner thoughts as they observe the Elves?
Frodo is involved in the words and customs:
'I thank you indeed, Gildor Inglorion,' said Frodo bowing. 'Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo, a star shines on the hour of our meeting,' he added in the high-elven speech.
'Be careful, friends!' cried Gildor laughing. 'Speak no secrets! Here is a scholar in the Ancient Tongue. Bilbo was a good master. Hail, Elf-friend!' he said, bowing to Frodo.
Later:
Now and again he spoke to those that served him and thanked them in their own language. They smiled at him and said laughing: 'Here is a jewel among hobbits!'
Indeed, Frodo seems well-versed in the etiquette of the peoples of Middle-earth:
'Welcome and well met!' said the dwarf, turning towards him. Then he actually rose from his seat and bowed. `Glóin at your service,' he said, and bowed still lower.
'Frodo Baggins at your service and your family's,' said Frodo correctly, rising in surprise and scattering his cushions.
-Many Meetings
And later:
"Farewell!" said Frodo, bowing low. "Think what you will, I am a friend of all enemies of the One Enemy. We would go with you, if we halfling folk could hope to serve you, such doughty men and strong as you seem, and if my errand permitted it. May the light shine on your swords!"
"The Halflings are courteous folk, whatever else they be," said Faramir.
-Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbits
Sam’s thoughts are reminiscent of those of Rat and Mole in the chapter “The Piper at the Gates of Dawn” in Kenneth Grahame’s The Wind in the Willows:
As they stared blankly in dumb misery deepening as they slowly realised all they had seen and all they had lost, a capricious little breeze, dancing up from the surface of the water, tossed the aspens, shook the dewy roses and blew lightly and caressingly in their faces; and with its soft touch came instant oblivion. For this is the last best gift that the kindly demi-god is careful to bestow on those to whom he has revealed himself in their helping: the gift of forgetfulness. Lest the awful remembrance should remain and grow, and overshadow mirth and pleasure, and the great haunting memory should spoil all the after-lives of little animals helped out of difficulties, in order that they should be happy and lighthearted as before.
Mole rubbed his eyes and stared at Rat, who was looking about him in a puzzled sort of way. 'I beg your pardon; what did you say, Rat?' he asked.
'I think I was only remarking,' said Rat slowly, 'that this was the right sort of place, and that here, if anywhere, we should find him. And look! Why, there he is, the little fellow!' And with a cry of delight he ran towards the slumbering Portly.
But Mole stood still a moment, held in thought. As one wakened suddenly from a beautiful dream, who struggles to recall it, and can re-capture nothing but a dim sense of the beauty of it, the beauty! Till that, too, fades away in its turn, and the dreamer bitterly accepts the hard, cold waking and all its penalties; so Mole, after struggling with his memory for a brief space, shook his head sadly and followed the Rat.
As for Pippin, he says he “recalled little of either food or drink”, but then he does a fine job of describing “bread, surpassing the savour of a fair white loaf to one who is starving; and fruits sweet as wildberries and richer than the tended fruits of gardens” and “a fragrant draught, cool as a clear fountain, golden as a summer afternoon”. A bit of sly Tolkien humor there.
So basically you have intellect (Frodo), spirit (Sam), and body (Pippin).
8. What do you make of Gildor’s refusal to tell Frodo more about the Black Riders?
Sometimes ignorance is bliss, or at least not as paralyzing as the truth. For example, it is said in World War II the green 29th US Division was chosen to land on Omaha Beach on D-Day because a more experienced unit would have been all too aware of the massive casualties it would incur.
Is Gildor taking a similar approach toward Frodo’s options Gandalf as was depicted in Chapter 2?
Yes. One of Tolkien’s major themes is the importance of free will. In cases of ignorance the given counsel can become the only conceivable option, thus predetermining the choice.
Note Galadriel is much the same:
"Do you advise me to look?" asked Frodo.
"No," she said. "I do not counsel you one way or the other. I am not a counsellor."
-The Mirror of Galadriel
Note her addendum:
Seeing is both good and perilous. Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here.
-ibid
It may be Gildor was less forthcoming because he didn’t really know the extent of Frodo’s “courage and wisdom”.
Indeed, as Frodo himself asks:
'But where shall I find courage?' asked Frodo. 'That is what I chiefly need.'
'Courage is found in unlikely places,' said Gildor.
Moreover, one might be careful of certain counsel depending on the source:
Suddenly Boromir came and sat beside him. `Are you sure that you do not suffer needlessly? ' he said. `I wish to help you. You need counsel in your hard choice. Will you not take mine?’
-The Breaking of the Fellowship
9. Do you have any further thoughts on their conversation?
'I cannot imagine what information could be more terrifying than your hints and warnings,' exclaimed Frodo. 'I knew that danger lay ahead, of course; but I did not expect to meet it in our own Shire. Can't a hobbit walk from the Water to the River in peace?'
'But it is not your own Shire,' said Gildor. 'Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.'
Which sadly predicts that King Elessar's edict of 1427 to protect the Shire will not stand.
And, finally:
10. What are your general thoughts on the chapter, as a whole?
Nice.
11. What is the most important contribution to the story (as well as to Frodo’s character) in the chapter?
The introduction of Elves, despite anything Hugo Dyson might say. As for Frodo, I’m reminded of Elwood P. Dowd in the film Harvey (1950):
Years ago my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be" – she always called me Elwood – "In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me.
Wisdom, intellect, strength, skill at arms, are all well and good, but it was Frodo’s inherent niceness that impressed Bilbo, Sam, Merry, Pippin, Gandalf, Gildor, Farmer Maggot, Bombadil, Strider, Elrond, the Fellowship, Galadriel, Faramir, and yes, for a time Gollum and allowed him to succeed at the quest.
12. Are there any qualms you wish to share about the writing?
Too short.
13. Any other final thoughts?
Needs more pie.
Thank you so much for enduring my line of questioning for the past two weeks! I have enjoyed it immensely, and hope to continue these conversations in the coming days as we progress onto Chapter 4.
Meanwhile, I hope everyone has been able to enjoy the beginning of the new year, both on TORn and in the real world.
Until next time,
Cats
Thank you for a great job leading!!
******************************************
The tremendous landscape of Middle-earth, the psychological and moral universe of The Lord of the Rings, is built up by repetition, semi-repetition, suggestion, foreshadowing, recollection, echo, and reversal. Through it the story goes forward at its steady, human gait. There, and back again.
-Ursula K. LeGuin, Rhythmic Patterning in The Lord of the Rings
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cats16
Half-elven
Jan 5 2015, 11:20pm
Post #25 of 39
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Catching up on everything tonight--great thoughts so far! //
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Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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