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Gurtholfin
Bree
Mar 17 2008, 6:09am
Post #1 of 8
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Morgoth Vs Sauron
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Okay here's one I haven't seen. Let's just say that Sauron got the Ring back from Frodo and is preparing his big "Take Over The World" invasion. As he's leaving the keys with the Mouth and telling him to feed the cat, POOF! Morgoth returns from the void as good as new and looking for some revenge. He tells Sauron thanks for keeping the business afloat while he's been away and that he'll take over from here. Sauron says I don't think so and they fight it out on Dagorlad. Morgoth in his prime versus third age Sauron with the Ring. Who ya got?! Assume that it's one on one. No Balrogs, no Nazgul. No benefit to being near Mordor or Mount Doom.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 17 2008, 6:30am
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Would Morgoth be in his prime though?
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He expended a lot of himself into his creations and in maiming the world. Even so, I'd back a well-rested if still diminished evil Vala against a fully empowered but battle-weary Maia.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..." Dwarves: "Pretty rings..." Men: "Pretty rings..." Sauron: "Mine's better." "Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak. Ataahua's stories
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Padster
Bree
Mar 17 2008, 1:49pm
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Much as this will surprise most, it would be Sauron.
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I think the key term that determines this battle is your use of ‘Morgoth’ as opposed to ‘Melkor’. Morgoth was a name attributed to Melkor only after (although not as a result of) Melkor had disseminated his native power into the substance of Arda, and in doing so had been much reduced in personal power. The being Morgoth is simply in no way the same as the being Melkor. Melkor was FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more potent. Sauron was much, much less powerful than Melkor. But there is a key bit of text in “Myths Transformed” from “Morgoth’s Ring” that I think says, without question, who would come out on top in this scenario, given that we are talking about Morgoth, as opposed to Melkor: “Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself. To gain domination over Arda, Morgoth had let most of his being pass into the physical constituents of the Earth – hence all things that were born on Earth and lived on and by it, beasts or plants or incarnate spirits, were liable to be 'stained'. Morgoth at the time of the War of the Jewels had become permanently 'incarnate': for this reason he was afraid, and waged the war almost entirely by means of devices, or of subordinates and dominated creatures. Sauron, however, inherited the 'corruption' of Arda, and only spent his (much more limited) power on the Rings; for it was the creatures of earth, in their minds and wills, that he desired to dominate. In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor-Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things. The time of Melkor's greatest power, therefore, was in the physical beginnings of the World; a vast demiurgic lust for power and the achievement of his own will and designs, on a great scale.” I think it is pretty clear therefore Morgoth was, by the time the First Age ended SO reduced in power that the enhanced Sauron (due to the possession of The One Ring) was greater than him. Think of it as, for example, Melkor starting with 1000 points of GREATNESS and Sauron starting with 80 points of GREATNESS. Melkor becomes Morgoth and squanders(?) 900 points of GREATNESS into the substance of Arda, whilst Sauron makes the One Ring and gains 40 points of GREATNESS. They end on 100 for Morgoth and 120 for Sauron. Hence Sauron is the greater whilst in the possession of the One Ring. Therefore, Sauron wins the day. Which may be a surprise to most people. Cheers Padster
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nudge
Bree
Mar 20 2008, 11:35am
Post #4 of 8
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If we are only talking about a 1on1 battle then yes, you are probably right. However, Morgoth + minions could easily crush Sauron + minions any day. After all, Morgoth had balrogs and dragons and stuff. His real power was never really his own fighting ability, it was the power of his minions.
Check out my sites: Hobbit Central & Journey of the Ring
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Tolkien Forever
Gondor
Mar 31 2008, 4:23am
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I think the key term that determines this battle is your use of ‘Morgoth’ as opposed to ‘Melkor’. Padster stole my thunder! I've been saying this very thing for 2 months now & quoting that verse from 'Myths Transformed' in Morgoth's Ring'........ Of course, the question was, 'New & recharged (whatever the term) Morgoth'. But, Morgoth, even at the beginning of the First Age, was a greatly weakened Vala...... We can see Morgoth's power at the time of the beginning of the First Age: He can no longer change shape, yet Sauron can. Morgoth cannot fight off Ungoliant's advances after they slay the Two Trees & he must call on the Balrogs to save him & the Balrogs are also stated in 'Myths Transformed' to be 'lesser spirits' than Sauron - granted there are 7 of them that aid Morgoth versus Ungoliant. Morgoth cannot assail Arien, Maia that escorts the sun, but neither can Sauron. Morgoth fears to take on a mere Elf, Fingolfin in battle, yet Sauron defeats the mighty Finrod in a battle of songs of power. Luthien puts Morgoth to sleep & helps a Man, Beren, steal a Silmaril from his crown of iron. In fact, Morgoth seems to rule mainly from military power alone in the First Age.... The only act of 'magical power' we see him accomplish is when he holds Hurin to the seat on Thangorodrim for 27 years & makes Hurin see through his eyes. Sauron, meanwhile, in the limited role of one of Morgoth's 3 main Lieutenants, is active magically in the destruction of Barahir & 10 of his companions through the creation of a phantom of one of the men's dead wives, defeating Finrod in a song of power, ruling Tol Sirion in Terror & fighting Huan as a werewolf (albeit in defeat).
(This post was edited by Tolkien Forever on Mar 31 2008, 4:27am)
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Hyarmendacil
The Shire
Sep 12 2008, 1:42am
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Ring does not boost Sauron's personal power
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whilst Sauron makes the One Ring and gains 40 points of GREATNESS. I don't think the Ring increased Sauron's personal power. Where would it come from? I believe the point of the rings was to gain powerful servants who were absolutely loyal. His *effective* power is increased, but not his *personal* power.
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Tim
Tol Eressea
Aug 2 2009, 11:02pm
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Sauron was still Morgoth's servant when Morgoth was cast into the void at the end of the First Age. If Sauron had more power than Morgoth, he could take possession of Morgoth's army and turn it against Morgoth - which he can't and doesn't. Morgoth is also going to come back at the end of creation and have another battle with the Valar or Illuvatar - he's obviously not down for the count. And besides... if Morgoth/Melkor has any brains at all, he's obviously implanted a hypnotic suggestion in all his servants so he can use a trigger word to disable any of them in case they decide to turn on him - he'll come back and use it on Sauron and that will be that.
I have a very sexy learning disability.
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