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The Mirror of Galadriel 1 - "Rock, paper, scissors"

Altaira
Superuser


Mar 17 2008, 3:01am

Post #1 of 16 (1790 views)
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The Mirror of Galadriel 1 - "Rock, paper, scissors" Can't Post

First, a thousand apologies for going MIA! BG and I caught a horrible bug a little over ten days ago that’s been hell to get rid of (we’re *still* both sick, though hopefully on the downhill side) Pirate. To top it off, I was at a new client this week (I *had* to work T-F) with a 100+ mile commute, and they haven't hooked us up to the internet yet. So, I was without internet access all day and at night only had enough energy to flop into bed; a frustrating week to say the least. Frown

Massive, massive thanks to NEB who took the initiative to keep things going, and to everyone who chimed in.Smile

I do have one post I’d love to squeeze in if I may. This is one with many questions that were keeping me up at night (before the killer cold took hold), and jumps off on a.s.’s question of whether the mirror was magic, and other conversations we’ve had on the subject.

**************
“Rock, paper, scissors,” or should I say, “Water, air, fire?”

Fire burns air (or oxygen), water puts out fire, air evaporates water...

On occasion here in the RR, we’ve had conversations about how much magic was woven into the tale of Lord of the Rings. IIRC, “definitely some,” was the consensus. This post assumes that there *was* a degree of magic in Middle-earth; the question posed here is ‘how much,’ and ‘why.’

Take Galadriel’s mirror: it granted visions of the past, present or future to those who looked into it. The Mirrormere also produced a vision of something that wasn’t a mere reflection of the sky above, though little else – making it seemingly less ‘powerful’ than Galadriel’s mirror. The waters of the Bruinen rose to engulf the Black Riders. So, water in Middle-earth definitely had an element of magic. The questions is (of course): how much and why?

But wait! Fire also had an element of magic, in the form of Gandalf’s pyrotechnics during the warg battle, illuminating the way through Moria and the halls of Dwarrowdelf. The hot fire of Mt. Doom was the only fire hot enough to forge the one Ring and, thus, the only fire hot enough to destroy it. And the Balrod, despite being trapped in Middle-earth for eons, was still able to generate fire from its very being.

Finally, there also seems to be an element of magic in air Tolkien’s Middle-earth: winds from the West boded good and winds from the East boded evil; not to mention Amon Hen and Amon Law granted enhanced vision and hearing via the air.

Many questions arise (for me) from the inclusion of such magic in the story:

1. Water, air and fire also correlate to the powers of the three Elven Rings. Was the magic attributable to those elements a result of the Elven Rings remaining in Middle-earth, or was it due to some innate magic that Middle-earth had on its own (being part of Faerie)?

2. From the examples above, water seems a bit more powerful (or at least obvious) a source of magic than air and fire. Do you agree? Could the reason be that the Vala Ulmo was more involved in the affairs of Middle-earth in the First and Second ages than some of the other Valar, Manwe and Aule in particular?

3. Were the magical attributes of water due to the Elven rings, or to Ulmo? What about air to Manwe and fire to Aule?

4. Did the magic of Galadriel’s mirror come from her, from her ring, from Ulmo, from Middle-earth itself or some combination of the above?

5. What about the element of Earth? There was no Elven Ring attributable to the element Earth. Did the Dwarven Rings make up for that? Was there still some magic in the earth itself after Morgoth’s pouring of his power into it and the destruction at the end of the First Age? We’ve discussed some ‘power’ left in the earth centered in Mt. Doom. What about Caradhras and the Giants of the Misty Mountains in The Hobbit?

6. If you believe there was still some magic in water, air and fire in Middle-earth, which was the most powerful and why?


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



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weaver
Half-elven

Mar 17 2008, 1:54pm

Post #2 of 16 (1356 views)
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hmm.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Well, plants and rocks are the two things that acted independently (perhaps) to do in the Fellowship...

Old Man Willow could be tamed by Tom...

No one could tame Caradhras...

I always liked the sense in Tolkien that nature is an independent entity, that does things of its own accord -- that there is a different kind of will and intelligence at work there.

But I think you may be on to something by linking the Elven rings with the three natural forces that seem to be more conciously directed in the books -- air, fire and water.

Hmmm some more....

Glad you're back and doing better!

Weaver



Dreamdeer
Valinor


Mar 17 2008, 4:36pm

Post #3 of 16 (1388 views)
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Welcome back! [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd venture that, since elves made all of the rings except for the One Ring, they invested into these something of themselves, in the same way that Sauron invested most of himself into his own ring. They were Noldor elves--those elves closest to the earth element, so I guess that they made five rings of earth, which eventually landed into the hands of dwarves. These might, in fact, have been the first rings of power forged--the easiest and most natural for Celebrimbor.

Of the Nine, who can say what their various orientations were, except that possibly none of them were water rings, since the Ringwraiths feared water and avoided crossing it if they could by any stretch. Although I might venture a preponderance of air. The old medieval alchemists regarded air as the cold/dry element, and this certainly applies to them (earth is warm/moist, fire is warm/dry, and water is cold/moist.) The wraiths have grown ethereal over time, and they readily take to flying on fell beasts. This would jibe with their sin being that of pride, by which we attempt to get above ourselves and fall for lack of any foundation. Celebrimbor might have devoted more and better rings to air because of its association with Manwe--far too potent for mere mortals!

The three were the fairest, so one might assume that Celebrimbor made them last, with the most experience. He made another air one, and then branched out to water and fire. He might have made a whole bunch of water and fire rings if Sauron had not forged the One.

Sorry about not answering the more important issues--my energy is flagging.

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


Curious
Half-elven


Mar 17 2008, 7:55pm

Post #4 of 16 (1397 views)
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I would say the One Ring is the Earth ring. [In reply to] Can't Post

Not because Earth, per se, is evil, but because Morgoth has tainted the earth with his evil, so that all of Arda is Morgoth's Ring. Sauron's Ring taps into that infinitely more powerful source of evil.

Quote
This post assumes that there *was* a degree of magic in Middle-earth; the question posed here is ‘how much,’ and ‘why.’


Lots, but Tolkien blurs the line between magic and spiritual power. But the world of LotR is the world of the War of Wrath and Akallabeth, and the mighty magical destruction that brought the First and Second Ages each to a close. The difference is that in the Third Age the Higher Powers do not want to repeat such destruction. They do not want to destroy the good with the bad. And they want the free peoples of middle-earth to make good choices, rather than having all their choices made for them, like puppets on a string.

Quote

So, water in Middle-earth definitely had an element of magic. The questions is (of course): how much and why?


Lots, and because of all the elements water remains the most pure, as Tolkien explains in The Sil. The forces of evil can poison or pollute the water, as in Moria or Morgul Vale, but the clear flowing rivers and streams of Middle-earth are not under the control of evil, and the Ocean remains free from evil.


Quote

1. Water, air and fire also correlate to the powers of the three Elven Rings. Was the magic attributable to those elements a result of the Elven Rings remaining in Middle-earth, or was it due to some innate magic that Middle-earth had on its own (being part of Faerie)?


Tolkien associates these elements with the Valar in The Sil. I don't think anything has changes. Ulmo is still associated with water and Manwë with air.

Fire is more complicated. The Balrogs are former fire spirits, but so is the Maia pulling the Sun, and Gandalf seems to have his own affinity with fire, including the "Secret Fire" of "Flame Imperishable," which may be another name for the Holy Spirit, or the Power to Give Life. In LotR, the Balrog is a creature of fire, but the Nazgul fear fire. The Ring is created with the fires of Mount Doom, but is destroyed by those same fires (of course lava may be as much earth as fire). And Gandalf's association with fire also seems to be wrapped up with his ability to kindle courage in the spirits of the free peoples of Middle-earth; thus fire and spirit seems related in more than just a metaphorical sense.

The powers of the Rings are mysterious. They seem to amplify powers that already exist, though, rather than bestowing powers on the powerless. Or perhaps what they do is retard the decay of powers that already exist. At any rate, it seems to me as if Gandalf would have been associated with fire with or without his ring, for example, and similarly the powers of Elrond and Galadriel would have been great even absent their rings, while the hobbits could never have matched those powers even if they had held all four of the Great Rings.


Quote

2. From the examples above, water seems a bit more powerful (or at least obvious) a source of magic than air and fire. Do you agree? Could the reason be that the Vala Ulmo was more involved in the affairs of Middle-earth in the First and Second ages than some of the other Valar, Manwe and Aule in particular?


It's true that Ulmo never retired to Valinor, but I think Manwë and Aulë and the other Valar in Valinor are more involved in the affairs of Middle-earth than people realize. Furthermore Ulmo did not retire to Valinor in part because he already had a refuge in the Ocean and waters of Middle-earth -- in Tuor's story Ulmo confesses that he has been forced to retire from many of the streams and rivers of Middle-earth as Morgoth poisons them. In The Sil Tolkien said that Melkor/Morgoth always had the least affinity for water. That doesn't mean the magic associated with water is more powerful than other magic, but that it is relatively free from Morgoth's influence.


Quote

3. Were the magical attributes of water due to the Elven rings, or to Ulmo? What about air to Manwe and fire to Aule?


In LotR Tolkien never explicitly links up water with Ulmo or air with Manwë, but I think the hints are there, and The Sil provides the key to the puzzle. I think the Elven rings amplified what was already there.

Is Aulë associate with the element of Fire, or Earth, or both, or neither? That's not clear to me. It does seem clear, though, that Aulë had the hardest time competing with Morgoth's taint, which directly affected Aulë's realm. Sauron was associated with Aulë before Melkor corrupted him, and so was Saruman before Sauron corrupted him. Aulë was less powerful than Manwë or Ulmo, but he also had less refuge in his battle with Melkor/Morgoth.

Gandalf, on the other hand, was associated with Fire, but was not a follower of Aulë and was very different from Saruman or Sauron and hard for them to understand. That leads me to believe that Aulë is more associated with earth than with fire, and that fire in its pure and spiritual sense may not be strictly associated with any of the Valar, but instead with Eru or Iluvatar Himself.


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4. Did the magic of Galadriel’s mirror come from her, from her ring, from Ulmo, from Middle-earth itself or some combination of the above?


Tolkien did not answer that question. I would say that it was a combination, but Tolkien left the answer ambiguous.


Quote
5. What about the element of Earth? There was no Elven Ring attributable to the element Earth. Did the Dwarven Rings make up for that? Was there still some magic in the earth itself after Morgoth’s pouring of his power into it and the destruction at the end of the First Age? We’ve discussed some ‘power’ left in the earth centered in Mt. Doom. What about Caradhras and the Giants of the Misty Mountains in The Hobbit?



I've addressed this question above. I think the One Ring was associated with the element of Earth. The Dwarven Rings were originally meant to be elven rings as well, so I don't think they had a particular affinity with earth. I also think Aulë was associated with the element of Earth, not Fire. But the Earth was also Morgoth's element, and most corrupted by him.

Still, there was magic in the earth, as we see on Amon Sul, Cerin Amroth, Amon Hen, and Mount Mindolluin. Tom Bombadil is also compared to the magic of the earth. "'Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself.'" But the earth is under direct attack from the Enemy, and "'we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills.'"


Quote

6. If you believe there was still some magic in water, air and fire in Middle-earth, which was the most powerful and why?


After answering your questions I've concluded that the magic of fire was most powerful, because of its association with the Secret Fire and the Flame Imperishable, i.e. the Holy Spirit and Eru Himself. The power of air and water were great because they were not as tainted by evil as the earth. But the earth still had power in it, despite Morgoth's taint.



sador
Half-elven

Mar 17 2008, 9:26pm

Post #5 of 16 (1328 views)
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A lot to think about [In reply to] Can't Post

And if I'll find something worth writing (after Curious' insights), I'll try to do so in a couple of days from now.

But the most important thing is that you're starting to feel better (I can empathise with you; for the last month, at least one of my kids or wife was down with something) - recover completely soon, and carry on the good work! Blush

"lesser men with spades might have served you better" - Boromir

(This post was edited by sador on Mar 17 2008, 9:27pm)


Beren IV
Gondor


Mar 17 2008, 11:28pm

Post #6 of 16 (1359 views)
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The Rings do not invoke the Valar [In reply to] Can't Post

The craft of the Elven Rings was given to them by Annatar (i.e. Sauron). Because the Elves made the craft their own, it is not evil, but I don't think Sauron told them to invoke the Valar, and I don't think that the Valar would have been fooled by Sauron's disguise. So, no, if they are invocations, then they are admirations, not blessed.

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


a.s.
Valinor


Mar 18 2008, 1:37am

Post #7 of 16 (1357 views)
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beings made of water [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
2. From the examples above, water seems a bit more powerful (or at least obvious) a source of magic than air and fire. Do you agree? Could the reason be that the Vala Ulmo was more involved in the affairs of Middle-earth in the First and Second ages than some of the other Valar, Manwe and Aule in particular?




I'm not sure, but it occurs to me that the mortals and immortals of ME (elves, men, and hobbits) are made of water, primarily. We require air to extract oxygen and can't live without it, but air is not part of our physical selves. We require fire for protection from freezing. We can't live without air, fire, or water.

But we are made of water. We carry the properties of water inside ourselves, inside our very cells. Maybe Ulmo is more involved because his special realm of sanctity is always with each and every one of us.

Not sure if it's apropos, but it certainly struck me as not entirely coincidental.

a.s. (and I'm glad you're feeling better and didn't mind my stepping in to pinch-hit without prior approval!! You're the best!)

"an seileachan"

"Good night, little girls, thank the Lord you are well!
Now go to sleep" said Miss Clavel.
And she turned out the light and shut the door,
And that's all there is. There isn't any more.


(This post was edited by a.s. on Mar 18 2008, 1:38am)


Altaira
Superuser


Mar 18 2008, 3:39am

Post #8 of 16 (1322 views)
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Nice answers! [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for all the great ideas. As the fog of sniffles and cold medicine lifts (finally!), you've given me lots of fun and intriguing things to think about. Smile I especially like the notion that the most 'powerful' or 'magical' element in Middle-earth might not necessarily be the most obvious or 'visible' one.

Thanks for all the well wishes, everyone! Smile


Koru: Maori symbol representing a fern frond as it opens. The koru reaches towards the light, striving for perfection, encouraging new, positive beginnings.



"Life can't be all work and no TORn" -- jflower

"I take a moment to fervently hope that the camaradarie and just plain old fun I found at TORn will never end" -- LOTR_nutcase



TORn Calendar


sador
Half-elven

Mar 18 2008, 9:05am

Post #9 of 16 (1341 views)
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Additional scattered thoughts about Narya [In reply to] Can't Post

  1. Melkor clearly is the spirit of fire; consider the Balrogs, and the flame of Udun. Not having read 'Morgoth's Ring', I'm not sure how to connect that to the scattering of his power in Arda itself, but we are actually sitting on a slim crust which covers megatons of molten lava.
  2. I would guess the curess of 'the Flame Imperishable' would be Varda. After all, in UT, it is she who says Olorin will go 'not as the third', the Exiles always turn to her for a sign of hope, and invoking her holds back even the Witchking. A Ring which refers to her would complete the dedication of the Three to the three most powerful of the Valar.
  3. In one of my very first posts here, I guessed that Narya was originally intended to remain Celebrimbor's. That would give one Ring to each of the houses of the Noldor (assuming Gil-Galad to be the son of Fingon, or at least his heir and representative).
  4. In the Silmarillion, Celebrimbor was very upset with the Oath of Feanor and its consequences. I would guess he tried to make the Three as an atonement for the crimes involved there, and the Three should paralell the Silmarils.
  5. The Silmarils did belong to Earth, Water and the Heavens (perhaps the fire element in them was Feanor himself?). But Maedhros and his Silmaril perished in a firey chasm - once again combining Earth and Fire.
  6. Celebrimbor is described in UT as having 'an almost "dwarvish" obsession with crafts' - which might connect him to Earth in a different way.
  7. Cirdan's words to Gandalf were that Narya was a symbol of hope; once again, strengthening the idea of a penitent Celebrimbor.
  8. On the other hand, Celebrimbor's desire to atone for his family's crimes, made him vulnerable to Sauron (I think Tolkien wrote somewhere that at the beginning of the Second Age, Sauron really rejected his Morgoth-serving past, only later slipping back to his old path. This would help him understand how to approach Celebrimbor, but not the still-proud Galadriel). There is nothing to be surprised about that; misguided zealots are often reformed sinners, who look for a way to atone for their past and chose the wrong one.
  9. And a last, quite comic thought: Narya's two bearers had a typical non-Elvish trait: both were bearded. Could my speculations above, and Celebrimbor's history with dwarves, suggest that he was bearded himself?


"lesser men with spades might have served you better" - Boromir


Darkstone
Immortal


Mar 18 2008, 3:29pm

Post #10 of 16 (1328 views)
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The Three Elements [In reply to] Can't Post

Fire burns air (or oxygen), water puts out fire, air evaporates water...

Fire transforms oxygen, transforms water, and transforms earth.


1. Water, air and fire also correlate to the powers of the three Elven Rings. Was the magic attributable to those elements a result of the Elven Rings remaining in Middle-earth, or was it due to some innate magic that Middle-earth had on its own (being part of Faerie)?

The magic is inherent in the three elements themselves. Fire is the Father (Being), Water is the Mother (Knowledge), and Air is the Daughter (Bliss).


2. From the examples above, water seems a bit more powerful (or at least obvious) a source of magic than air and fire. Do you agree?

Fire is active, water is passive. Given that in Tolkien’s world magic is mostly passive, then yes.


ld the reason be that the Vala Ulmo was more involved in the affairs of Middle-earth in the First and Second ages than some of the other Valar, Manwe and Aule in particular?

Remember, the Ring of Water is not just about the substance of water, but rather about the ideal, the virtue of water. For example, plants and the future might be considered “watery”, so would be under the control of Nenya and Galadriel. Inspiration and wisdom might be considered “fiery” and thus under the control of Narya and Gandalf. Healing and spirit might be considered “airy” and so would be under the control of Vilya and Elrond.


3. Were the magical attributes of water due to the Elven rings, or to Ulmo? What about air to Manwe and fire to Aule?

Well, if you take the Grecian idea of specific patrons to the elements then you have Zeus-Fire, Hera-Water, Persephone-Air, and Hades-Earth. (Note though Poseidon is god of the waters, he is not the patron of the element of water. There’s a difference.) Aule is hardly the chief of the Valar, and Manwe is hardly a mother figure. If I have to I’ll go Manwë-Fire, Varda-Water, Estë-Air, and Mandos-Earth.


4. Did the magic of Galadriel’s mirror come from her, from her ring, from Ulmo, from Middle-earth itself or some combination of the above?

The nature of a seer’s mirror is feminine, which lets Ulmo out, and since Galadriel was a female before she was a Ringbearer I think it lets Nenya out. The power comes from her own feminine power. I’d say the ring and Ulmo act as aids and intensifiers, but aren’t the source.


5. What about the element of Earth?

Fire (pure), Water (pure), and Air (not so pure) crystallize together to make Earth, which is the least pure of the four elements.


There was no Elven Ring attributable to the element Earth.

There’s also no Elven Ring attributable to the fifth element, quintessence, the element that surrounds us and penetrates us and binds the galaxy together. But in several alchemist and Kabbalist schools of thought, only the first three elements are considered to be the building blocks. The others are derivatory.


Did the Dwarven Rings make up for that?

The Dwarven Rings were a bust.


Was there still some magic in the earth itself after Morgoth’s pouring of his power into it and the destruction at the end of the First Age?

I would think the power itself would be magic. But as noted above, Earth is considered the least pure of the elements, so the cosmology fits. Note also that Earth is considered the Son, and Jesus hasn't come yet to Middle-earth.


We’ve discussed some ‘power’ left in the earth centered in Mt. Doom. What about Caradhras and the Giants of the Misty Mountains in The Hobbit?

They still possess the fire of consciousness.


6. If you believe there was still some magic in water, air and fire in Middle-earth, which was the most powerful and why?

Fire, because it is the most pure and most alive. It is transforming. It is creation. It is Logos. It extinguishes all things. It is eternal.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



White Gull
Lorien


Mar 18 2008, 7:28pm

Post #11 of 16 (1362 views)
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Enlightening. Thanks// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Writing poetry without rhyme is like playing tennis with the nets down.
- Robert Frost


White Gull's Fanfic


mae govannen
Tol Eressea

Mar 20 2008, 4:16pm

Post #12 of 16 (1389 views)
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(Sauron's Ring = the Earth Ring) I came to the same conclusion too, [In reply to] Can't Post

and for the very same reasons, based on what Tolkien explains, that is found in 'Morgoth's Ring'. That conclusion always made perfect sense for me, as it made the picture complete in a quite satisfactory way, also as far as the symbolic meaning of all this is concerned.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 8:10am

Post #13 of 16 (1275 views)
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Thanks, Altaira! [In reply to] Can't Post

One thought: Darkstone notes that fire “transforms” the other three. So it occurs to me that fire isn’t an object but a process.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 8:10am

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“Amon Sul, Cerin Amroth, Amon Hen, and Mount Mindolluin” [In reply to] Can't Post

…are all elevated – there seems to be more earth magic in hills and mountains.

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N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 8:11am

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“Ugly Bags of Mostly Water” [In reply to] Can't Post

A description of humans from Star Trek: The Next Generation.

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Curious
Half-elven


Mar 22 2009, 9:41am

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For better or for worse. [In reply to] Can't Post

Consider Caradhras and Mount Doom.

But is there earth magic in tunnels and caves, from hobbit holes to deepest Moria?

 
 

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