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moraj
Registered User
Dec 29 2014, 10:59am
Post #1 of 27
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LOTR movie plot holes
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I'm making videos out of plot holes in the movies. For example, why didn't Sauron protect Mt. Doom better?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4XvSTj91yQ&index=2&list=PLDuOowc7jrFyyjnSOwEjxkFIzkhYIPayX
What other plot holes have you noticed?
There's the classic "Why didn't they just fly eagles to Mt. Doom?"
And then "Why didn't Elrond just take the ring from Isildur and throw it in himself?"
More?
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micha84
Rivendell
Dec 29 2014, 1:36pm
Post #2 of 27
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I don't think these are plot holes at all. First of all, the points you make are not movie-specific, these are the same in the books, so what you criticize is not some movie plot hole, but Tolkien's quality as a story teller. Which is always worth talking about, I think.
So let's get to it.
There weren't many ways into Mordor. You can't come through the Black Gate unnoticed, and how could anyone expect to get past Minas Morgul, Shelob and the Tower of Cirith Ungol without being at least noticed, let alone captured? Gollum didn't lie when he said Sauron didn't expect attack that way. Still, that way was guarded like all other ways were. You don't need a host around the mountain if all ways to the mountain are watched.
And then the land was also emptied as Sauron drew all remaining forces to the Black Gate. That was Aragorn's plan, to free the way for Frodo by risking the lives of the Gondorian army along with his own and that of his friends.
But anyway, Sauron did NOT think anyone would ever want to destroy the ring, that was Gandalf's main assumption and the foundation of the quest. Sauron knew the ring's power of seduction and his enemies' need for power to guard against Sauron's forces. How could anyone ever refuse the One Ring?
Also, Mount Doom is indeed an active volcano. You can't just "drain" it or divert the lava to some other caverns. Even if that was logistically possible to the orcs and with the technology available to them, which I doubt, you still forget that this volcano and its activity is what drew Sauron to Mordor! That volcano provides him with the most powerful source of energy for all kinds of Black Magic or what have you that he thinks he needs. It's his big powerhouse. Why should he want its power drained and the volcano cold?
And regarding Elrond and the Eagles... you have to acknowledge the rules of this Secondary World to appreciate it. If you come with "why didn't he just..." questions to it, at least consider what actions lay in the nature of each character. Elrond would never just rob Isildur of the ring! Or throw Isildur into the fire with it.
The Eagles are a Deus-ex-machina device that Tolkien needs in his storytelling like ancient Greek storytellers needed them. They are not available to hire for anyone, they don't do any dirty work for you. "Hey, can you hitch us a ride to Mount Doom? It's such a serious matter, really, you gotta help!" That's not their nature. They observe what's going on, and if you get into deep trouble, they might help, but they will not carry out your quest for you.
Tolkien is a pretty good story teller if you accept the rules of the world he created. You won't be able to enjoy any fairy tale if you always go "oh but they could never survive inside the wolf!!!" ;)
(This post was edited by micha84 on Dec 29 2014, 1:48pm)
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Dec 29 2014, 7:33pm
Post #3 of 27
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...I still belief the eagles could never ever reach the mountain. Sauron would easily knock them out of the air with his magical powers.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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moraj
Registered User
Dec 30 2014, 8:04am
Post #4 of 27
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You're making a lot of sense, micha84.
I had considered the impossibility of the journey as a reason Sauron didn't guard Mt. Doom, and my response was still "but why not just a couple guards at the entrance, just in case? Even if the rest of the land was emptied??" But that Sauron hadn't considered that they'd try to destroy the ring at all--that hadn't crossed my mind. Good call!
I would consider draining an active volcano about as logistically impossible as Saruman digging the network of caverns depicted under his tower. Draining a volcano is certainly ridiculous though, and that's actually why I chose that scenario over the many other possible ways I could have had Sauron protect Mt. Doom--the sheer audacity of draining an active volcano seemed to match Sauron's indomitable will. That, and I could make the lava disappear fairly easily in photoshop--not so with some of my other possible scenarios. :)
I'm completely with you on the Eagles. I just tossed that one in there hoping to get people thinking about plot holes (considering it may be the oldest and most debated plot hole ever). I've actually got another script for a video where Eagles will be brought up at the Council of Elrond and then struck down in favor of a better idea.
I agree it's not in Elronds character to force Isildur to destroy the ring, which is why he didn't, but you've got to imagine that when things were at their worst Elrond himself would look back at that moment and say "What if...?". If Elrond fully comprehended right then all the misery Isildur's selfish actions would cause Middle Earth, I doubt he would have lost any sleep from taking the ring or just tossing Isildur over the edge.
I also enjoy talking about Tolkien's quality as a story teller, and considering the breadth and depth of the world he created (on a typewriter, no less!) I am personally amazed there aren't more inconsistencies and plot holes. But I don't see bringing these points up as criticism of the quality of his work--I think they are just the byproduct of the act of telling a story and are equally enjoyable to talk about.
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Kristin Thompson
Rohan
Dec 30 2014, 10:53pm
Post #5 of 27
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If Elfond had taken the Ring from Isildur
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you'd be asking, "Why didn't Isildur just push him into the lava?"
Kristin
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moraj
Registered User
Dec 31 2014, 12:08am
Post #6 of 27
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Absolutely!
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Elf_Maven
Bree
Jan 6 2015, 7:59pm
Post #7 of 27
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Well, I would suggest that an additional reason the eagles are a deus-ex-machina is precisely because they are exactly that: messengers of "God." In Tolkien's fictional universe the Eagles are the special emissaries of Manwë, who rules the airs and winds of the World.
"Go where you must go, and hope!"
- Gandalf, TTT The White Rider
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 7 2015, 5:04pm
Post #8 of 27
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I recently watched ‘The Fellowship of the Ring’
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for the first time in several years and made note of a few discrepancies from the book that I noticed. Not necessarily plots holes but more trivial in nature.
No ‘flash’ from Gandalf when Bilbo disappears in the Long-expected Party.
Bilbo leaves with no Dwarves.
Frodo and Sam leave alone (no Pippin) with Gandalf.
No Farmer Maggot.
No Tom Bombadil/Barrow Downs.
No Glorfindel.
Arwen is taken completely out of character; portrayed as somewhat of a ‘shieldmaiden’ able to sneak up on Aragorn 'the greatest traveller and huntsman in this age of the world’.
She challenges the Nine nazgul and takes Frodo across Ford.
At the end of the Council of Elrond everyone is jumping up and down and screaming and arguing with one another. Should be total silence: “Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him.”
Frodo decides to take the Moria route (incorrect).
Frodo solves the password to open the Westgate (incorrect).
Gollum had been following for three days. (Incorrect. He was already inside Moria).
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jan 7 2015, 5:32pm
Post #9 of 27
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The Bakshi version of The Lord of the Rings reinforces the idea that Frodo made the final decision to enter Moria, so I had to check Tolkien's text. The Company was going to take a final vote in the morning, but the interruption of the Wargs (Were-wolves?) decided for them.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 7 2015, 8:27pm
Post #10 of 27
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Therefore I advise that we should go neither over the mountains, nor around them, but under them. -Gandalf As Gandalf had already explained that the southward trek would be folly because of Saruman’s control over the Gap of Rohan, and they had already been defeated by Caradhras he reasoned that Moria was their final hope. It seemed at this point that this IS the way they would go, as other choices had been taken from them, but yes, some arguing continued until (as you say) the Wargs made appearance. It seems their choices were limited to one (if one can be a choice) and Frodo’s asking for a vote in the morning is somewhat pointless.
So, Frodo didn’t make the decision to enter Moria, though he seemed adamant about continuing the quest.
”But how can I return without shame—unless there is indeed no other way, and we are already defeated?”
“Then we must go on, if there is a way,” said Frodo with a sigh. Yes, we could we say the Wargs made the final decision?
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moraj
Registered User
Jan 9 2015, 10:59am
Post #11 of 27
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There are quite a few discrepancies between the books and the movies. One thing I found interesting was listening to the PJ and Philippa Boyens commentary on the movies. They actually address many of the differences (Tom Bombadil, Arwen's role, the Westgate password, amongst others...) and give their reasons for the changes. You may not always agree with the changes, but you do understand why they made them.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Jan 9 2015, 10:53pm
Post #12 of 27
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...''Gollum had been following for three days. (Incorrect. He was already inside Moria)''
Nowhere in the movies it is said they have not spend the last three days in Moria when that was said. So it makes sense and Gollum could be both already inside Moria AND been following for three days.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 10 2015, 1:25am
Post #13 of 27
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Ah, you may be correct - movie-wise
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But . . . the book states that they entered evening of Jan. 13 and Gandalf falls about noon of Jan. 15. This leaves but less than two full ‘days’ inside Moria. Thus according to the book Gollum couldn’t have followed them inside Moria for three days as they were not inside for three days.
Yet my memory may fail me on the movie and the timeline may have been changed or skipped and this would still qualify as a book-to-movie discrepancy.
Thank you Ereinion. 
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Jan 10 2015, 6:28am
Post #14 of 27
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...I think in the movie Gandalf also states something like ''it's a four day journey to the other side'', when referring to Moria.
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 10 2015, 4:10pm
Post #15 of 27
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Book or Movie - We can enjoy each for what they are..
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From Wikipedia
"Sure, it's not really THE LORD OF THE RINGS ... but it could still be a pretty damn cool movie. " -- Peter Jackson
“They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people aged 15 to 25, and it seems that The Hobbit will be the same kind of film. [..] Tolkien has become a monster, devoured by his own popularity and absorbed by the absurdity of our time. The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has gone too far for me. Such commercialisation has reduced the aesthetic and philosophical impact of this creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: turning my head away.” —Christopher Tolkien, Le Monde, 9 July 2012
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien
Jan 10 2015, 4:12pm
Post #16 of 27
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...so I don't really understand what you are trying to say...?
''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 6:04pm
Post #17 of 27
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yes, I would beti if someone counted they would find
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there are hundreds to thousands of discrepancies between book and film, starting with the prologue stating that three rings were "given" to the elves--at least that suggests Sauron gave them to the elves, when the three elven rings were in fact of elven make. I would bet someone has made a master list of discrepancies. Does anyone know of a link to something like that?
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 10 2015, 6:58pm
Post #18 of 27
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I wasn’t really trying to say anything.
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I thought that Jackson and C. Tolkien said it much better than I could myself; and gave my feelings towards the films much better than I could myself.
I was somewhat surprised to see C. Tolkien’s comment. (A real blast against the inaccuracies of the LOTR films.)
As you have probably guessed I’m a big book-firster, but I (after some time) can enjoy the movies for what they are – very well done films ‘based’ on the writings of JRRT.
So yes, we can enjoy both the books and the movies, but there will likely always exist a strange schism between those heavily invested in the writings of Tolkien and those who except the movies as ‘gospel’.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 10 2015, 7:07pm
Post #19 of 27
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that listed over 300 discrepancies in the three LOTR films, but alas, I didn’t save it and am unable to find it again.
My post #8 above just touches on some errors in FOTR alone. I’m sure there are many many more such as your comment on the Three Rings. If I should find a link I’ll post it.
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 7:21pm
Post #20 of 27
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Thanks, I would love to see that
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We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 10 2015, 8:01pm
Post #22 of 27
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This is fascinating, thank you!
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I expect this list has already been discussed on the message boards at length in the past so I will resist the urge to start a new thread commenting on it.
We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jan 10 2015, 9:14pm
Post #23 of 27
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You may be right, but I don't recall seeing one.
Don't be shy!  
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Gwytha
Rohan
Jan 11 2015, 2:06am
Post #24 of 27
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We are plain quiet folk and have no use for adventures. Nasty disturbing uncomfortable things! Make you late for dinner!
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swordwhale
Tol Eressea
Jan 12 2015, 6:08pm
Post #25 of 27
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the "why didn't the eagles..." argument is classic.
Your answer was right on.
Indeed, faerie stories have counterintuitive things going on, things not based at all on science (how could they survive inside the wolf) because the stories are not about the facts, but about the deep truths they reveal.
As for facts; I have volunteered with wildlife rehabbers, and worked with birds of prey. They are a Force of Nature, and even the ones that weigh 6 ounces are a force to be reckoned with. They are not biddable, like your Golden Retriever. Even falconers work WITH the birds' natural talents: the bird is using you as a hunting partner, and that makes their hunting far more successful (as well as the falconer's).
"Judge me by my size, would you?" Max the Hobbit Husky.
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