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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"The reasons why Peter Jackson’s Hobbit movies failed"
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peterLF
Rivendell

Dec 29 2014, 6:24am

Post #76 of 91 (380 views)
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sooo.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Oin is a king then?


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 6:34am

Post #77 of 91 (378 views)
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If you have a six movie set which we will in a few years.. [In reply to] Can't Post

..then it will make a lot of sense to watch them in order (if you have not seen them before, wich a lot won't have (and even very many now) ; and when one does the healing of minor character with Morgul weapon wound will foreshadow (hinting of something to come if you like) the healing of a major character with a morgul weapon wound (why is this so problematic???); which is why PJ did it.


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 6:35am

Post #78 of 91 (379 views)
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Not sure... [In reply to] Can't Post

..when Oin healed a morgul weapon wound.


peterLF
Rivendell

Dec 29 2014, 6:44am

Post #79 of 91 (375 views)
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two elves, out of how many? [In reply to] Can't Post

And these are also the only two instances of healing being required... So far it's using athelas in 100% of the cases. Two of only three female elves yes - but also two of only what 6 or so hero elves in total that we hear of, regardless of gender? With one failing btw.

I know you are not making a case for foreshadowing, but that was what the discussion was about. A lot of these resemblences can be consideres very vague, and what I'm pointing out is that unless you make a point out of them being so similar, they really aren't. Other than some poor guy obviously needing a medic. In a war movie :-)


peterLF
Rivendell

Dec 29 2014, 6:48am

Post #80 of 91 (373 views)
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to each his own [In reply to] Can't Post

But I wouldn't recommend anyone they should watch the films in that order.

It's not problematic, I just don't agree. I'm giving PJ a lot of credit here, because this as foreshadowing would be something a high school student would write. I try to give him a bit more credit than that. Other than, if you look at it in a more technical literary way, it still doesn't make sense. Sorry to say.


peterLF
Rivendell

Dec 29 2014, 6:51am

Post #81 of 91 (377 views)
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watch the film [In reply to] Can't Post

He didn't. Just like Aragorn and Arwen didn't. But he was the one asking for kingsfoil, not Tauriel.

Which would be strange if a) he didn't know about it, and b) "being a king or an elf is a prerequisite for it working"...


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 8:56am

Post #82 of 91 (369 views)
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But Oin... [In reply to] Can't Post

... did not know it was a Morgul blade: Athelas works generally (as is documented in other places), but only in the hands of elves and Kings against Morgul blades (arrows etc) , which was my point 'a prerequisite for it working against a morgul blade'. If you do not know it is a morgul blade you would still try it (would you not??).


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 9:09am

Post #83 of 91 (365 views)
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But why not watch films in... [In reply to] Can't Post

...chronological order. Seem odd not to. I try very much to read novel series in order so as to get he full backstory, and get more out of later stories, which is PJ's point.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 29 2014, 10:37am

Post #84 of 91 (370 views)
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Eh? There are several other healing scenes [In reply to] Can't Post

In the films (conducted without athelas).

Well, as you mention above, if you had forgotten the fact that the arrow was specifically mentioned as a "morgul shaft" perhaps that set you off down a particular road.

If you don't see any real resemblance between the two morgul weapons leading to the two athelas discussions, the finding and use of the herb and the healing by the two glowy elf-ladies, well, I guess you aren't a fan of Crimewatch!


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2014, 10:39am

Post #85 of 91 (367 views)
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No sarcasm, please; what I say about Aragorn [In reply to] Can't Post

is real.
It is not what YOU say in mockery:
"Are you really saying Aragorn has elvish magic fingers (and glow) as well?"
I never said that.
I said that as the Dunedan, the true Heir of the Great Kings of Men he was supposed traditionally to have healing powers and that power developed in him indeed. At the time of FOTR he wasn't able yet to heal Frodo, but by the time of ROTK, in the Houses of Healing he was the one taking care of Eowyn and Merry (both victims of the Witch-King) with the help of some athelas - just as described in the book.


'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2014, 10:45am

Post #86 of 91 (365 views)
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Thank you for replying [In reply to] Can't Post

when I couldn't, for want of an internet connection! Wink
But I saw this post of yours only now, that is, after having just finally posted my own reply!

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Bladerunner
Gondor


Dec 29 2014, 12:30pm

Post #87 of 91 (360 views)
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I'm glad we were able to find a little common ground. Bon appétit! (0: // [In reply to] Can't Post



elostirion74
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 2:27pm

Post #88 of 91 (355 views)
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but where´s the connection (in a dramatic sense) between Kili and Frodo? [In reply to] Can't Post

I´m afraid we´re forgetting the heart of the matter here, which is the connection in terms of dramatic effect between Kili´s situation and Frodo´s situation.

In what way does the relation between Kili and Tauriel create a sort of hint/warning of what is going to happen to Frodo later in the story or create a sense of expectation about things that will happen later on in the story/films? How does Kili´s healing by Tauriel strengthen the dramatic effect or tension of Frodo´s healing in FoTR? That is after all what foreshadowing is actually about.

(And by the way: Frodo is healed by Elrond and not Arwen, it´s established quite clearly in several scenes in FoTR).
First of all: it`s Elrond who actually heals Frodo and not Arwen, that´s quite clear to see from several scenes in FoTR.)

I think it´s very obvious to see that Kili and Frodo are characters that are not at all connected to each other, neither in the story, nor in a dramatic sense. Their missions, their purpose and their situations are so very different.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 29 2014, 3:18pm

Post #89 of 91 (349 views)
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I'm not suggesting there is one. [In reply to] Can't Post

I was simply surprised at the suggestion that there was no real resemblance between the two scenarios. My posts begin and stop on that point.

Do you not see a resemblance between the two scenarios?

I am, for clarity, though I think I did state this in the post to which you replied, not saying anything about it being foreshadowing!


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 9:57pm

Post #90 of 91 (330 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

...the point is that Kili is a minor character and Frodo is a (the) major character, and that is what ( a lot of) foreshadowing is about. Yes Arwwn stablises him and Elrond heals him but my point stays the same about Morgul weapon wounds and who can heal them. .


zombywoof
The Shire

Jan 1 2015, 4:00pm

Post #91 of 91 (305 views)
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It Would be Fun ... [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one point I COMPLETELY disagree with. The fact that PJ uses the phrase "it would be fun ... " demonstrates a passion for these films and to make the films HE would enjoy! What better reason to make a decision for a piece of art or entertainment to say, "it would be fun ...". There is a lot of hard work here, if he did things that weren't fun, he'd likely lose his mind and this films would be no 'fun' at all.

With kitchen prose and gutter rhymes ...

Host of Prog Rock Deep Cuts, airing Thursdays from 7-10 PM EST on houseofprog.com.

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