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BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell
Dec 28 2014, 11:17am
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Can someone please explain why Galadriel looked like she did in FOTR during her encounter with Sauron?
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I'm trying to wrap my head around why Galadriel turned into her 'ring temptation' form during her encounter with Sauron. I understand that in FOTR, she is tempted by the one ring and hence allowing her potentially darker side to surface as she fights its pull, however at Dol Guldur what power is she exterting that she looks as she does? Is it some type of inate strength, enhanced by Nenya and if so, why does it appear like she's evil when she's a force for good?
(This post was edited by BornOutOfTheWest on Dec 28 2014, 11:18am)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 11:27am
Post #2 of 52
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It's up to each of of us to interpret but it struck me
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As a visualisation of her using her powers for aggression and harm against Sauron. In that sense it is similar to the Ring scene - she wouldn't suddenly become "bad", but would end up using her powers for control and dominion.
Tolkien actually expresses some interesting views (which I don't agree with in a real world context) in his Letters on the subject of (and here I'm paraphrasing, obviously) goodies doing bad things in the cause of good.
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hms_ocean
Rivendell
Dec 28 2014, 11:31am
Post #3 of 52
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Yes, I suppose you could question why doesn't she just become a shining white light that looks good rather than the green evil light?
I think the real question is here is, as in FOTR is that a representation of her evil powerful side that she could have or just a representation of her just being powerful? So whenever she is faced with power or a threat she would become that way, good or evil.
So to sum it up, for me it doesn't really matter. Looked and sounded awesome.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 28 2014, 1:01pm
Post #4 of 52
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"They are one, the Ring and the Dark Lord." I think it's only natural Galadriel reacts similarly on both cases; in FOTR she is resisting the temptation of the Ring, in BOFA that of its master.
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Merovech
Bree
Dec 28 2014, 1:08pm
Post #5 of 52
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It's a forced reference to LotR
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that demonstrates they forgot just what the scene during FotR was supposed to mean.
There is no reason for Galadriel to 'turn dark' in BoFA, she did in FotR due to the Ring's temptation. But I guess they thought they needed one more reference for those of us who weren't quite sure that these films were set in the same world as LotR.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 1:09pm
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I'm not sure myself. The ornery side of me thinks it's because they thought it looked cool when they did it in LOTR.  But I think it might be because for her to exert such power with her ring she goes beyond mere Elven power, which changes how she is perceived somehow. Or maybe it's that Nenya used in the presence of Sauron does weird stuff?
In any case, I didn't particularly like her going nuclear, because when she is tempted with the Ring, the idea is that if she used the Ring she would become terrible and corrupt even while she intends good because the Ring is evil. There is no such reason in this scene. I think having her shine with white Elven glory, or with the light that flashes when she takes out Bolg 1.0 to rescue Gandalf, would have been sufficient.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
(This post was edited by Riven Delve on Dec 28 2014, 1:14pm)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 1:12pm
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A valid question indeed, at least in my eyes...
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I myself, even after two threads or more discussing this very topic earlier already, am not able to give you a definitive answer, or even one that I genuinely find convincing.
So, I am a bit disturbed indeed by the scene as it has been represented, and yet I am at a loss as to what would have been a more appropriate and truer way of representing it.
One thing I feel quite clearly: the Phial should have played a much more visible role, shining much more in her hand than it ever did later in the hand of Frodo or Sam in LOTR.
Also, I would have liked to see Cate Blanchett play the whole thing on her own without artificial modification of her appearance or voice; I think she could probably have pulled it off in a more satisfactory way for me.
Yet although I don't enjoy the way they did it, I am not disturbed by it to the point of the scene being ruined in my eyes because of it. So I leave it at that...
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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moreorless
Gondor
Dec 28 2014, 1:33pm
Post #8 of 52
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it depends really what you think were seeing in FOTR
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that demonstrates they forgot just what the scene during FotR was supposed to mean.
There is no reason for Galadriel to 'turn dark' in BoFA, she did in FotR due to the Ring's temptation. But I guess they thought they needed one more reference for those of us who weren't quite sure that these films were set in the same world as LotR.
You could take the view that what we see in FOTR is a preview of Galadriel as she would be with the ring in which case it wouldn't make much sense here.
However I think you could also take that scene in FOTR as Ganadriel showing a darker and more aggressive side of her own nature. The films don't mention it of course but she did have a darker history, not as dark as Feanor(didn't take part in the kid slaying) but she did come and stay in middle earth out of a desire to rule others and I would argue its that aspect of her that we see in FOTR and again in this film.
Indeed I think that casts the whole confrontation in rather a different light. Whilst on the face of it "good" wins its more the "bad side of good" that actually wins potentially storing up problems for FOTR that are only resolved when she rejects the ring.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Dec 28 2014, 1:34pm)
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BornOutOfTheWest
Rivendell
Dec 28 2014, 1:42pm
Post #9 of 52
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it is a confusing picture. I think what would have been better would of been her initially bathed in light, radiant and shining out against the darkness of Sauron however, as the confrontation goes on, she should slowly turn into the version we see of her in the film. This would have shown the corrupting nature of Sauron/Dol Guldur - the more power she exerts against Sauron, the 'darker' she becomes.
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Merovech
Bree
Dec 28 2014, 1:42pm
Post #10 of 52
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The dialogue in the FotR scene makes it quite clear that the 'transformation' was a direct result of the Ring's temptation:
"Galadriel: You offer it to me freely? I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired this.
[starts to grow dark]
Galadriel: In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!
[she stops]
Galadriel: I have passed the test. I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."
I understand it's tempting to come up with a fitting explanation but I really don't think there is anything more to it besides echoing LotR one more time.
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moreorless
Gondor
Dec 28 2014, 1:54pm
Post #11 of 52
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The rings temptation yes I agree BUT..
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The dialogue in the FotR scene makes it quite clear that the 'transformation' was a direct result of the Ring's temptation:
"Galadriel: You offer it to me freely? I do not deny that my heart has greatly desired this.
[starts to grow dark]
Galadriel: In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair!
[she stops]
Galadriel: I have passed the test. I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel."
I understand it's tempting to come up with a fitting explanation but I really don't think there is anything more to it besides echoing LotR one more time.
The temptation of the ring is obviously key to the transformation BUT its a question of what we are seeing in that transformation.
I think the dialog supports my point that what were seeing isn't just the ring tempting someone who would otherwise be wholey "good". Rather its tempting someone who has a darker side to her personality that needs to be "tested" in order to be defeated and its that darker side I think we see when she becomes "nuclear".
Viewed in that light its less that Sauron is beaten in the Hobbit by "pure" means but rather by a "hands off MY domain" side of Galadriel, a danger that mirrors Saurman's and previous even Sauron's falls giving us a sneak preview of the test that she will have to pass in FOTR.
(This post was edited by moreorless on Dec 28 2014, 2:01pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 2:12pm
Post #12 of 52
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The Ring is evil, but that is not, I don't think the key issue.
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The danger of the Ring is not that it makes you bad, it is that it makes you ultimately powerful (which in due course leads to the evil of dominion and control over others).
It is, I think, a useful distinction as, in my view it speaks to the question at hand. Power may be used for a good end but nonetheless be a dark action and a foot upon the darker road. So, I think, the suggestion here is that the use of Elvish power for aggression, hurt and harm is a dark means, even if the end is good.
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Nerven
Rivendell
Dec 28 2014, 4:01pm
Post #13 of 52
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Reason is that this question will asked 1000 times, to get attention, cause actually it makes no sense, even durign her temptation scene she was actually described as "beautiful beyond enduring" but in this context I can understand why they choose that effect, but in this situation, her fighting Sauron for me it makes no sense.
Maybe it´s the bad influence of this place, that makes her looking like that, some argue that this is her "dark side", but if she appears like that, when just having a dark side, what would she look like when completely evil? All Nonesense.
Certain people have anyway no clue, I just have to think of that misused quote, which explains that Galadriel lost a lot of her power permanently after the battle that actually never happened.
(This post was edited by Nerven on Dec 28 2014, 4:04pm)
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Dec 28 2014, 6:13pm
Post #15 of 52
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I think the problem with this is scene is how it feels so random. Whatever they were trying to express about Galadriel's power in that scene is way too vague in my opinion. I think it's fun to have a certain level of uncertainty when it comes to magic and power in Middle-earth, but this took it a little too far. The scene in general just felt rushed and could have used some better editing. There wasn't enough buildup or reactions from Elrond and Saruman.
The chronicles art book makes it sound like they were trying to show Galadriel being corrupted by the dark energy of Sauron and Dol Guldur itself, which I can live with. But they could have shown that in a better way. And I really think they should have used more of her bright light form. It looked much better, and I think it was actually more intimidating than the dark Galadriel look. They went a little too far with that design. Even something as simple as her starting out in the light form and slowly changing into the dark form as she faces Sauron could have made that scene better.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 7:09pm
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Could it be that the lethal combination of power endowed by the Ring and of the malice inherent in it is what makes it so dangerous? As I understand it, the Ring confers power according to or in proportion to the native power of the wielder. The Ring is more "dangerous" the more natural power the wielder has, because the natural power magnifies the Ring's power exponentially--and so, I assume, the contagion of the evil is magnified, because the evil cannot be separated from the power. The Wise (Gandalf, Galadriel, and even Aragorn) who decline to take the Ring do so because they realize that it is their natural power that makes it so much more dangerous for them to use it. The evil is more "potent," if you will, because it can "take root" more quickly and thoroughly because of their power.
On the other hand, Frodo, and to a lesser degree Bilbo, though they use the Ring, really do not receive "power" from it--yet they still are eventually corrupted by it and by lust for it. (Although perhaps it could be lust for the power that they could potentially have from it...?)
That is why I think that power alone--power given and used legitimately and wisely--is not at issue here. I sense no disapproval in Tolkien's description of the White Council's use of power to cleanse Dol Gudur. ("They took Dol Guldur, and Galadriel threw down its walls and laid bare its pits...") It is the evil of the Ring that is the key factor in why power is dangerous.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 7:49pm
Post #18 of 52
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I was with you most of the way down.
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I think Tolkien is very cautious of excesses of power and is generally critical if not outright condemning. A key hypothetical is to consider whether you could have a "good" version of the Ring which offered the same amount if power - I would say not.
Tolkien, I perceive, tells us about the dangers and corrupting influence of power in lots of ways. Consider that his heroes, the hobbits, are not the best of people but the least - their strength and merit is in their lack of power. Consider that our good wizards are noted to have had their power restrained and to be unable to reveal it fully - hence we see Gandalf kindling the hearts of men rather than blasting orcs on the battlefield. Numenor fell, Tolkien notes, at the point at which it had become most powerful and proud. The "blessed" Silmarils drive genocide and destruction. Tolkien is even critical of the use of the power of Elvish rings for preservation as this is against the natural order of things.
The exception to this is divine power, but excessive power for anyone but Eru is the root of evil, time and again, and good characters are marked out time and again by their lack of power or willingness to reject it.
You are quite right that the ring is most dangerous for those who are most powerful - not those who are least good!
Hence Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel describe the potential allure and effects of the Ring not in the sense that they would suddenly become evil but they they would remain good but have too much power (which in turn would become a dominion just as controlling and so just as evil).
Elrond puts it nicely: "as long as it is in the world it will be a danger even to the Wise. For nothing is evil in the beginning."
So, I would disagree that Tolkien suggests excess power wielded by anyone other than the divine, can be a good thing.
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Dec 28 2014, 7:51pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Dec 28 2014, 7:54pm
Post #19 of 52
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To determine myself I'll wait for the EE
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...For the Dol Guldur Standout is the section of the movie that suffers the most of the cutoffs made.
IMO Galadriel had to show herself in full power. She could have been whitey, like Gandalf in DOS, but I think it's a better thing that she didn't turn that way at all.
The main thing is that she apparently succeeds in pulling Sauron out of the scene. But what we have to question is whether Sauron wanted this income happen or not, because Dol Guldur is a heavy showplace for all the ring bearers. Sauron is there, The Nine are there, Galadriel is there, Elrond is there, Thranduil is near, Gandalf is there, and even Thrain was there before Sauron grabbed him. Last but not to be forgotten, Radagast is also there.
Among the Ring Bearers, the Men didn't escape Sauron's will. None of them did.
Among the Dwarves, the question is partly solved : Thrain was at Sauron's mercy, but despite the torture and even madness, he never surrender and he kept silent about whom he gave the key to Erebor, that is to secure ultimate power through Smaug's alliance. Thrain's fate show that Sauron can't rely on dwarves if he wants to conquer the world.
So who's left ? The Elves. At least two of them.
In Desolation of Smaug, we hear Gandalf assessing that Dol Guldur could be 'a trap', on . But he goes nevertheless, he confronts the trap to see where it's going.
Gandalf being captured by Sauron, there show the Elves - And Saruman. Aren't they the ones that could be 'trapped' ?
We see Galadriel repelling Sauron, but not without having him recalling her that her ring is bound to The One. That is what frightens her the most.
Then she calls for help, and there come Elrond... and Saruman.
My opinion is that Sauron wanted to grab on anyone who shows himself to Dos Guldur. Should Galadriel have been alone, Sauron would have subdued her. Should the Three show themselves together, Sauron would not be able to subdue all of them, but in the end the fight turns to his own advantage, because Galadriel loses a part of her power repelling him, and Saruman shows himself.
But showing himself to Saruman, Sauron gets Saruman beginning to search for the Ring, suspecting that it could be nearby. And Saruman searching for the Ring is Saruman wanting to use a Palantir to help finding it. As we know, the Palantir is the tool Sauron will use to subdue the most powerful Wizard. So it will end for a good catch for Sauron, even if Galadriel succeeds in repelling him.
Galadriel turning 'nuclear' turns also into a lesson for all of those present :
- Elrond discovers that she can be, and ultimately will be, weakened by the use of her power --> that leads him to plan to leave ME rather than fighting for ME
- Saruman discovers that Galadriel being weakened, HE becomes the most powerful 'goodfellow' in ME --> that leads him to his will to become the Ruler of ME.
- Gandalf discovers that Galadriel is weakened and could be subdued to Sauron --> That leads him to understand that the destruction of the Ring is the only way to save ME
- Galadriel discovers that her own use of ultimate power changes her too much --> That will help her to resist the temptation when Frodo will freely offer the Ring to her.
We can notice that already corrupted Bilbo would never offer the One Ring to the Elves.
Only Frodo Could to that, as long as he isn't yet corrupted himself.
Well Done, PJ.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Dec 28 2014, 8:02pm)
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patrickk
Rohan
Dec 28 2014, 8:10pm
Post #20 of 52
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And Well Done Milieuterrien...
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...an excellent and well argued post an now I can re-see the film in a different light. As I recall from the books Sauron leaving Dol Goldur was to some extent a feint.
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 8:11pm
Post #21 of 52
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I think perhaps it is the "excess"
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of power that we aren't seeing eye to eye about. I don't see that Galadriel is using "excess" force.
So, I would disagree that Tolkien suggests excess power wielded by anyone other than the divine, can be a good thing.
Consider that his heroes, the hobbits, are not the best of people but the least - their strength and merit is in their lack of power. Consider that our good wizards are noted to have had their power restrained and to be unable to reveal it fully - hence we see Gandalf kindling the hearts of men rather than blasting orcs on the battlefield. Numenor fell, Tolkien notes, at the point at which it had become most powerful and proud.
I would say that it is not their lack of power that is the strength of Hobbits, or that restrained power is the heroic quality of good wizards, but rather their lack of desire for power and dominance over others. In other words, it is power misused, without the proper sanction, that is the problem. So when you say
good characters are marked out time and again by their ... willingness to reject it [power]
I quite agree.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 8:14pm
Post #22 of 52
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I'm still baffled by the idea that Galadriel loses some of her power
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What is meant by this, and how are we supposed to understand that this happened? 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 8:25pm
Post #23 of 52
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Our good, powerful characters do have an innate desire for dominance and control, though from the best of intentions and, given too much power would believe they were creating a better world whilst, in fact, would be simply creating a new form of autocracy. That is why they cannot trust themselves with the Ring.
But you are right that humbleness and a lack of desire for control are allied traits, though in practice only Bombadil (who I would argue is at least partly an overlap with the divine) gives us an example of a powerful character who does not have any inner desire for control.
But the general point is that I do think Tolkien gives us the strong message that excess power, or power without sanction as you put it, is inherently dangerous and corrupting.
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ecthelionsbeard
Lorien
Dec 28 2014, 8:27pm
Post #24 of 52
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I thought it made perfect sense. Isn't it because of Nenya that she has these enormous powers? Or is her source of power from something else? Anyway, I thought it was because of Nenya, at least in part, that she was so enormously powerful. And wasn't Nenya bound to the One Ring of power? As such, I always felt her display against temptation and, in this case, Sauron himself was essentially the personification of his evil influence within Nenya and its bearer being used against him. Perhaps I'm missing something but this has always been how I understood it. Visually, it serves as an example of her channeling evil for good; using Sauron's strategy agains't him.
(This post was edited by ecthelionsbeard on Dec 28 2014, 8:37pm)
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Dec 28 2014, 8:44pm
Post #25 of 52
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The Elven rings are bound to the One Ring, yes
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but Sauron never touched them and so they are untainted with his evil. However, what the relationship is precisely, other that when the One is destroyed theirs too lose their potency, I can't say.
As I understand it, Galadriel the Noldor is powerful in herself, but Nenya enhances her power. Again, more than that I can't specify. I'm sure there are others here who've made much deeper study on this than I have! 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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