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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Instances of Foreshadowing
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patrickk
Rohan

Dec 28 2014, 3:35am

Post #1 of 41 (1615 views)
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Instances of Foreshadowing Can't Post

...now there has been some debate among critics and some ringers about PJ's foreshadowing events in LOTR from the Hobbit trilogy for dramatic effect (no need to revisit the debate here!!!).

Some are from Tolkien and some are PJ. The list I can think of in no particular order are:
i) Saruman 'I will look after Sauron' (from PJ);
ii) 'Pity stayed his hand' (from Tolkein);
iii) Athelas scene (from PJ);
iv) Gimli reference ('mutant dwarf') in context of Legolas contempt and then best friends later. (from PJ);
v) Galadriel's power; (from PJ)
vi) Origins of Gandalf's staff (from PJ)
vii) Mithril short from Tolkein;
viii) rings power over Bilbo e.g him fibbing to Gandalf at the end (from PJ)
ix) strong Balin character-for Moria (from PJ)
x) Strider reference by Thranduil to Legolas, for his speech at Council of Elrond in FOTR (from PJ)

That my 10: any more and which work well and which don't???_


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 28 2014, 3:44am

Post #2 of 41 (1120 views)
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There are a lot [In reply to] Can't Post

in the dialogue- such as Dori's "It isn't natural, none of it" at Beorns which shamelessly lifts Sam's dialogue as well as loads of visual references in shot composition. I think reusing whole lines of dialogue from the LotR's trilogy is probably the worst offender for me however.
Foreshadowing is a fine writing technique, but like all such techniques when its over used it becomes obvious, grating and detracts from the effect.
I strongly believe several scenes in the LotR's films, if viewed after TH would be reduced in their power and effectiveness by now being a 'second time you've seen them' rather than the first as they were intended when made.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 28 2014, 3:58am

Post #3 of 41 (1049 views)
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Which LOTR scenes did you have in mind [In reply to] Can't Post

...as being diminished ... I think Athelas and Balin's tomb would strengthened (and some have already said so) and also Logolas's speech.


Lindele
Gondor

Dec 28 2014, 4:19am

Post #4 of 41 (1028 views)
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Regardless, [In reply to] Can't Post

The amount of scenes and moments that are strengthened in LOTR by The Hobbit vastly outweigh the weaknesses. To me the throw away lines such as 'not natural none of it' are so minuscule that they aren't even worth arguing or fretting over. I never understood the obsession over these things.


pettytyrant101
Lorien


Dec 28 2014, 4:27am

Post #5 of 41 (1052 views)
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off the top of my head [In reply to] Can't Post

and late at night (actually early in morning here for me!) Gandalfs looming shadow trick in Bag End- I think that has less impact second time he does it either way you watch them, but more so FotR after TH because Gandalf not only does it twice now but Bilbo is there both times so shouldn't seem so surprised and shocked by it.
I think the athelas scene will be reduced, if only because there is a chance viewers will be remembering the Tauriel version and either cringing or laughing at it, it was so badly done (and I think Sam's "aye, its a weed" line even gets a recycle too!)
I think all of the dialogue references are cheap and shameless in fact, lazy stuff, and that they will just sound lazy by the time you rehear them in LotR's if watching all the films in a marathon. As if they are just reusing lines from TH (which would be ironic as its the other way round).
Other references just seem pointlessly annoying- can Gandalf only do magic if there is a rock to hit (and ideally break) with his staff? Trolls, Great Gobln, Balrog. Can Galadriel not go anywhere unless she is barefoot and talking and moving in slow motion? Or does Pj just have a Cate Blanchett foot fetish?
I cant recall another set of films where the separate parts so overtly self reference each other right down to dialogue choices.

And I'm not sure Th does make the tomb scene in FotR more poignant. Yes we know who Balin is, but whilst Balin in the films is in my view easily the best realised of all the dwarves, he does not seem like the Balin from the books who is likely to go off and try to retake Moria. It doesn't seem to sit with the personality we see in the films, especially in BOFA where his concern for Thorin and how he is acting would seem to go against the idea of a future Balin recklessly drawn to retake Moria. I am not sure it fits.

"A lot of our heroes depress me. But when they made this particular hero they didn't give him a gun, they gave him a screwdriver so he could fix things. They didn't give him a tank, or a warship, or an x-wing fighter, they gave him a call box from which you can call for help. And they didn't give him a superpower, or pointy ears or a heat ray, they gave him an extra heart. And that's an extraordinary thing.
There will never come a time when we don't need a hero like the Doctor."- Steven Moffat

(This post was edited by pettytyrant101 on Dec 28 2014, 4:31am)


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 28 2014, 6:38am

Post #6 of 41 (978 views)
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I think this comes down to sensibilties... [In reply to] Can't Post

...for most of the audiences (the 70% non-US) who have been bought up on irony and self referencing jokes (also remember they are children's stories) and pokes at themselves in movies, the PJ approach will work well in the six CD set which will come in a few years. This is as well as the forshadowing, which is used less in Hollywood than elsewhere; but it is a classic trope. I for one will think they will be strengthened by these forshadowings and references, and will enjoy them immensely in their 6-CD order over a couple of weekends in about five years time when PJ gets to tweak them all, yet again.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Dec 28 2014, 10:17am

Post #7 of 41 (960 views)
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Don't forget the worst offender of all... [In reply to] Can't Post

"an army bred for a single purpose...war!" Crazy




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 28 2014, 10:30am

Post #8 of 41 (946 views)
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Oddly, it's a criticism I haven't heard levelled at Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

Re-use of scenes, dialogue and ideas was clearly something he made overt in creating his own sequel.

Yet, when the same technique is used for the cinematic sequel, apparently it's an issue, per se.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Dec 28 2014, 4:29pm

Post #9 of 41 (837 views)
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There was also... [In reply to] Can't Post

...Thorin calling Smaug a "witless worm", and Galadriel telling Sauron "You have no power here!!".

Of course, Bilbo says "The eagles are coming" just like Pippin does, but that's ripped straight from the book. Unless I'm forgetting something (which I very well could be), this is the only line of dialogue repeated verbatim in both The Hobbit and LotR books that I can explicitly remember.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Dec 28 2014, 4:34pm

Post #10 of 41 (830 views)
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I don't think Balin's tomb has been much affected... [In reply to] Can't Post

...for the majority of movie-goers, since most probably don't remember the two quick mentions of Balin in the LotR films. However for those of us who do, I actually think Balin's tomb has been strengthened Of all the things I complain about in PJ's version of The Hobbit, Balin is something I feel he got right.

The athelas scene, however, was terrible and ham-fisted.


Eleniel
Tol Eressea


Dec 28 2014, 5:01pm

Post #11 of 41 (810 views)
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Absolutely... [In reply to] Can't Post

and also...why should the use of athelas in FotR to try and save Frodo after Weathertop need to be "set up?" Surely the audience should be allowed the chance to come to a gradual understanding for themselves over the course of a movie - or three? In fact, one could say that Aragorn's use of athelas in FotR foreshadows his use of it as rightful King in RotK to save Faramir and Eowyn!




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 28 2014, 7:35pm

Post #12 of 41 (782 views)
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Elenial remind me of the forshadow... [In reply to] Can't Post

...is that Saruman's Uruk-kai??


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 28 2014, 10:39pm

Post #13 of 41 (733 views)
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Does a foreshadow... [In reply to] Can't Post

...have to be a 'set up' or merely a nod to the audience that for example they already know elves have the power of healing, or that we have met Gimli's father before. By the way the movie Usual Suspects was made great by its extensive use of foreshadowing in this case to 'play'with the audience. So there are many reasons for foreshadowing, and was three examples of athelas healing properties (in the right hands) one or two too many. To some yes to others no..


Magpie
Immortal


Dec 28 2014, 11:42pm

Post #14 of 41 (716 views)
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well... [In reply to] Can't Post

the word itself kind of sets up the mean.

foreshadowing = fore (before) + shadow (hint)

wikipedia : is a literary device by which an author hints what is to come

dictionary.com : to show, indicate, or suggest in advance; presage

so it isn't really "a nod to the audience that for example they already know elves have the power of healing"

In my mind, foreshadowing is almost a subliminal hint to the reader/viewer. First time through, you likely would miss a subtle foreshadowing because you don't know what's coming. But an idea or concept has been planted into your thinking without you realizing it. Then when the event/reveal happens, your mind goes 'aha'. Or maybe you even forgot that foreshadowing moment and don't catch it till the second time around.

But I don't think it's should be used as a game or easter egg. I think it helps the reader/viewer be guided along the path the author/filmmaker would like you to travel. S/he's taking us somewhere emotionally but s/he doesn't want to give us the map ahead of time. Foreshadows work a little like herding. It nudges us toward a certain way of thinking or feeling. At least that's how I see it.

Now, it might be hard to be effectively subliminal with people who know what's going to happen because they know the story ahead of time. And not all foreshadowing is 'hidden't so to speak. Sometimes one hears or sees something and consciously processes it such that they suspect it will be meaningful later.

But if they're the audience already knows the elves have the power of healing that referencing that is more of a 'nod'. Not foreshadowing.

When I explored this general subject for the LOTR movies, I titled my posts 'foreshadows and echoes'... and used the terms loosely. Sometimes there are repeated elements but the first isn't foreshadowing, it's more like there's a series of echoes in the repetition.

Here's some more on its use and effectiveness.
http://udleditions.cast.org/...m_foreshadowing.html


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
TORn History Mathom-house ~ Torn Image Posting Guide


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 28 2014, 11:50pm

Post #15 of 41 (706 views)
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But [In reply to] Can't Post

these films will be mostly seen in chronological order order (the six CD set to come) so that is why the forshadowing is important.

As it is summer (and too hot to go out), holiday time, and not a lot to do here except eat, go to movies (Turner later today), then talk about them, I will expand a bit more on the debate. There is a a mix here in this thread between film maker tropes and self referencing (PJ's penchant for certain things that get repeated), and forshadowing which moves the story along, or gives a later event a different emotional impact, or explains it better. It can be a hint or more explicit, I don't htink it needs to be that subtle (see Shakepeare where is was very obvious in his tragedies).

As for filmmaker tropes and self-referencing we either like them or hate them. Hitchcock was famous for them, Clint Eastwood (beyond his own wooden acting) not generally, but very strong in in his cop and Western films, with Unforgiven a savage irony almost a bleak parody of his earlier stuff...but I digress.

The self-referencing stuff of PJ can be fun (Athelas ‘it’s a weed isn’t it’); circling horses is such an old Western trope and he uses it deliberately that way, and it is recognisable to the audience as such (and they are still mainly children’s films). As people have pointed out these are a lot more irritating to some and a nice nod or fun to others.

The forshadowing is in a different league and it does have emotional or explaining impact. The power of the ring is foreshadowed far more than in the book and rightly so. Having the major character on death’s door early on and being healed by Athelas and an elf is not a case of deus ex machina (which the eagles are more so, but at least they are sent for), but we have seen elves do this stuff before to minor characters, and when we see a man do it later on then he must be special.

Having Balin being a more significant character than in the book and including the fight at the orai gates in AUJ, is important foreshadowing of his death as it invests emotional impact for the audience and make the Moria scene all the more important, an ominous.

The whole of Dol guldur is important forshadowing of a lot of things: the relative power (and vulnerability) of the various players; the play by Saruman (‘leave Sauron to me’). There are a few more.

Thranduil speech to Legolas on ‘finding a ranger’ set up legolas speech at the Council of Elrond, and explains why he knows Aragorn.
..and I could go on, but now off to see Turner…


shadowdog
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 12:48am

Post #16 of 41 (701 views)
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Why does the use [In reply to] Can't Post

of a common herbal medicine have to be limited to one or two references in these tales? That is kind of like saying the use of arrows on so many occasions is too much.


Magpie
Immortal


Dec 29 2014, 1:37am

Post #17 of 41 (692 views)
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I never said foreshadowing isn't important [In reply to] Can't Post

I was only trying to define the term to explain why merely mentioning or showing something that happens later is not necessarily foreshadowing.

Specifically, imo, the part of your post I quoted -- which was phrased as a question 'is this foreshadowing' -- is not an example of foreshadowing. It doesn't meet the definition.

I'm not arguing for or against the presence or usefulness of foreshadowing. And I'm not saying that "elves have the power of healing, or that we have met Gimli's father before" isn't effective or useful. Only that it isn't foreshadowing.


LOTR soundtrack website ~ magpie avatar gallery
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Ham_Sammy
Tol Eressea

Dec 29 2014, 2:30am

Post #18 of 41 (680 views)
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An example [In reply to] Can't Post

Would be Saruman's "leave Sauron to me" line. That is foreshadowing in my opinion.

All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you, Gandalf the Grey


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 5:10am

Post #19 of 41 (664 views)
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I think we have to agree to disagree... [In reply to] Can't Post

..."Foreshadowing is an advance sign or warning of what is to come in the future" (Dictionary.dot.com) and so having semi-minor character hit by a morgul weapon and being healed by an elf with healing properties; may in fact foreshadow a major character also being hit by a morgul weapon and being healed by an elf with healing powers (and yes that is what happened, because we happened to see them out of order). But those that see them in order will say 'aha' that was foreshadowed a couple of movies back. Seeing picture of Gimli may in fact foreshadow him in later movie (and hey presto a couple of movies on there he is, and another 'aha' moment. Some might call this a instance of 'Chekov's Gun' but that is too obscure and so foreshadowing maybe a more accessible term.


peterLF
Rivendell

Dec 29 2014, 6:33am

Post #20 of 41 (669 views)
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maybe just a nod? [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there are more cases of PJ paying homage to his earlier films than actually trying to deepen the literary scope. Doesn't seem like his style. For the Hobbit at least. He seems obsessed with trying to merge the two trilogies. Thank god Viggo turned him down.

What seals it for me is the complete lack of literary discussion in the EE appendices - outside of a comment here or there in the commantaries. A bit embarresing really, considering the significant focus it recieved in his ealier trilogy. Obviously we cannot compare PJ and Tolkien - so I'd be careful of what I were to call a PJ attempt at literary trickery like this... Especially when they have to share a screen and story with Tolkiens work.


patrickk
Rohan

Dec 29 2014, 8:08am

Post #21 of 41 (647 views)
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Yes there ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... is a bit of self-referencing (which one either loves or hates) and other tropes, but as my list suggests there is also a lot of foreshadowing (in the broader sense of the word so as to include similar but obscure terms like 'Chekov's gun'), to strengthen the narrative of the following LOTR, which some comments on this forum suggests they do.


Michelle Johnston
Rohan


Dec 29 2014, 11:37am

Post #22 of 41 (638 views)
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Self referencing v Strengthening through foreshadowing [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the easiest way for each of us to judge is not to watch the Hobbit but the LOTR and see how our instincts play out now we have the first three films. These were the ones for me:-


The Legolas/Aragorn familiarity at the council was more invested.

Balin's tomb.

Ori's skeleton.

The meeting of Frodo and Gandalf in the meadows knowing he had left Bilbo a few moments before.

In general though the direct quotes, in the Hobbit, Dori/Legolas others have mentioned either gained a rye smile or a slight sense of oh that was to obvious … and needless.

The other echoes I really enjoyed though were the echoes from the first age. DG and Angband, Gandalf and Maedros, Eleven Halls and Menegorth the neckless gf Lasgalen and the Nauglamir and the Azog/Thorin denouement and Fingolfin and Morgoth.

My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2014, 1:49pm

Post #23 of 41 (624 views)
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You're quite right !...This is very unfair on PJ & Co [In reply to] Can't Post

 to suddenly see as a bad thing what was done first of all by Tolkien himself. I hope other people here would see that themselves and stop this search for all instances of 'foreshadowing', listed out not in a neutral way as I first thought, but mostly to mount a heavier criticism of it all.
Amazing...

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2014, 2:02pm

Post #24 of 41 (629 views)
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"ripped straight from the book"??? [In reply to] Can't Post

What do you mean, "ripped" ?!?
Is that too now being reproached to the writers?!
This is becoming rather crazy.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 29 2014, 2:10pm

Post #25 of 41 (623 views)
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This is all only your personal interpretation [In reply to] Can't Post

of PJ's intentions. You choose to see it all in a negative light, but that doesn't mean what you say is correct.
It is quite unfair also to bring Viggo into this argument, when he has really nothing to do with the subject matter of this thread.

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)

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