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**'The Fellowship of the Ring' Discussion, Chapter Three: Three is Company; Part 2: "Sniffing Riders with Invisible Noses"**

cats16
Half-elven


Dec 27 2014, 9:57pm

Post #1 of 17 (4673 views)
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**'The Fellowship of the Ring' Discussion, Chapter Three: Three is Company; Part 2: "Sniffing Riders with Invisible Noses"** Can't Post

“Sniffing Riders with Invisible Noses”

Greetings, and welcome to part two of our discussion of Chapter Three: Three is Company. Again, everyone is welcome to sit down and join in the conversation.

We now move on to more eventful moments in the chapter.

After a rest, the hobbits continue onward along the Road, heading east. Suddenly, Sam hears the sound of a horse coming from behind. Frodo immediately feels the urge to hide from the rider, and tells the others to remain out of sight.

I noticed in this passage that no mentions of Sam and Pippin’s thoughts/experiences are present, and we are only given Frodo’s perspective.

1. Why does the Evil here not appear to affect the others? Rather, why does Tolkien choose to omit their reactions, in your opinion? Does this encounter with a Black Rider seem to disagree with their later experiences with Ringwraiths?

2. We’ve discussed the role of the Ring many times, concerning its role as a character with some sort of will. What do you make of the Ring’s “agency” in a scene such as this?

While they are hiding, there are a couple of quotes I found especially interesting:

“Frodo hesitated for a second: curiosity or some other feeling was struggling with his desire to hide.”

[..]

“A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breathe, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he only had to slip it on, and then he would be safe. The advice of Gandalf seemed absurd. Bilbo had used the Ring. ‘And I am still in the Shire,’ he thought, as his hand touched the chain on which it hung.”

I am having trouble articulating exactly how I feel about these passages, and hope that others might have formed fuller thoughts on the language being used here.

3. How does Frodo’s thought process strike you? What are your thoughts on Frodo’s first real experience with the Ring’s influence?

Side note: I would love to further research the instances in which a Ring-bearer refers to the Ring in the possessive.


Invisibility

4. How exactly is the Black Rider’s face simultaneously “shadowed and invisible,” according to the first physical description we receive of him? Is this more a reflection of Frodo’s lack of perception than the Rider’s actual physical form?

On a similar note, I would like to point out a brief passage concerning the Rider’s disappearance:

“Frodo crawled to the edge of the road and watched the rider, until he dwindled into the distance. He could not be quite sure, but it seemed to him that suddenly, before it passed out of sight, the horse turned aside and went into the trees on the right.”

This is the first occurrence of what I like to call “I saw, or I thought I saw” moments in LotR. A character usually (though not in this case) looks behind the group, and thinks they see something trailing them. In this case, of course, it’s different in that Frodo appears to see the Black Rider disappear off the road.

5. How might these moments of “I thought I saw...” fit into JRRT’s conception of Evil and its presence in the world? Does it also provide insight on our perception of Evil? Might this relate to the earlier question concerning invisibility vs. perception of reality?

The hobbits reconvene afterwards, and after questions about the possible identity of the Black Rider, Sam remembers what the Gaffer told him before they left.

I find this flashback and the conversation that follows to be very cinematic in its pacing and presentation to the reader.

6. What are your thoughts on this flashback to Bagshot Row? Does this come across to you as forced suspense from the author?

After becoming unsettled by Sam’s story, they decide to continue onward off of the Road.

7. Does it make any sense, practically speaking, for them to continue along this path? Why not take a different path, since Frodo and Pippin were fairly familiar with these lands?




One more thread coming on the 30th, to wrap up this chapter. Looking forward to everyone's thoughts!



And please continue on with the discussion in my previous post for Part 1. I'll be jumping back in there later tonight, to respond to a lot of good thoughts I've neglected in the past couple of days. Smile



Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 27 2014, 10:57pm

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Teach your kids: don't talk to strangers, especially ground-sniffing ones [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the new installment, Cats!

Frodo the Intuitive: It seems to me that Frodo is more perceptive than the others in dreading the proximity of the Nazgul, though it's not entirely clear why. I think it's his personality, but one could argue the Ring is influencing him in some way. It certainly wants to be found, doesn't it?! We're always left wondering about the mechanics of magic in Tolkien, so I have more questions than answers here: Is the Nazgul wearing his ring, and is the One sensing one of the Nine? (just as I wonder if it sensed Narya) Is the Nazgul sending a deliberate call out to activate the Ring? Or is this happening naturally, that Sauron-evil senses Sauron-evil?

It's never clear how literally Sauron has possession of the Nine: does he really have them on his nightstand, or does he have the Nazgul so thoroughly under his control that he can let them wear their rings and he has absolute control of the Nine that way? If you think about it, when the Witch-King is killed, shouldn't his ring have fallen to the ground on the Pelennor?

3. How does Frodo’s thought process strike you? What are your thoughts on Frodo’s first real experience with the Ring’s influence?

If you contrast the Ring's influence here with the exaggerated promise it makes to Sam in Mordor about him becoming a Conquering Gardener, it's playing a much more subtle game, twisting things, but not getting grandiose. Frodo sounds like anyone tempted by anything: "Gee, I really shouldn't eat that extra piece of cake with this diet I'm on, but it sure looks good, and one more piece won't matter, will it?"


Quote
This is the first occurrence of what I like to call “I saw, or I thought I saw” moments in LotR. A character usually (though not in this case) looks behind the group, and thinks they see something trailing them. In this case, of course, it’s different in that Frodo appears to see the Black Rider disappear off the road.

Great point. This happens a lot with Gollum following behind them too, and it makes things creepy, playing on our fears that there is a monster under the bed, ducking under there just before the light went out. Tolkien knows how to play on fear.

In this particular case, doesn't the Black Rider seem a little inept, turning aside within view so that the little trap it was planning gets foiled? Though generally, the Black Riders seem more scary than smart.

What I don't understand is why the Black Rider reacted the way he did when Frodo touched the Ring chain. It seems that touching the chain triggered the Rider to know that the Ring was nearby, right? So why ride off like that and plan to pounce later when it could pounce now? Wasn't it drawn by the Ring, so that even if it couldn't properly see/smell Frodo, it would find him by Ringwraith-sense? I'm not clear on this point.

7. Does it make any sense, practically speaking, for them to continue along this path? Why not take a different path, since Frodo and Pippin were fairly familiar with these lands?
I think they're so far along this road that they're stuck on it. They could go back to Hobbiton and take the main Road, but they don't know how many Riders there are, and besides, they're on foot vs. enemies on horseback. And they know how to be super-quiet. But most of all, I think they're still believing that they're safe because they're in the Shire, and things can't get that bad, right?


Neldoreth
The Shire


Dec 28 2014, 3:07am

Post #3 of 17 (4442 views)
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The chase begins... [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah! I've survived travel and the flu and have time off and can maybe participate better! Thanks for leading this discussion!

1. Why does the Evil here not appear to affect the others? Rather, why does Tolkien choose to omit their reactions, in your opinion? Does this encounter with a Black Rider seem to disagree with their later experiences with Ringwraiths?

I think that, at this point in the story, the reader believes that only Frodo knows the kind of danger they are in and that there is a pending pursuit. The revelation that the other Hobbits know a great deal about why he is leaving is still a chapter or two away, so by using only Frodo's perception of the danger, Tolkien reinforces the idea that Frodo is in the know while the other Hobbits are innocently accompanying him. Sam knows some, but not all of the story so he, too, would be less afraid.

2. We’ve discussed the role of the Ring many times, concerning its role as a character with some sort of will. What do you make of the Ring’s “agency” in a scene such as this?

This is a great moment of tension in the story. We know that Frodo needs to hide and the worst possible thing for him to do is put on the ring…yet he is sorely tempted to do so. It makes Gandalf's warning about the ring wanting to be found stand out. It also begins to create some great drama as you have this object that has some sort of sentiency and ability to bend the will of others.

3. How does Frodo’s thought process strike you? What are your thoughts on Frodo’s first real experience with the Ring’s influence?

Once the immediate danger of the Black Rider finding them backs off, Frodo returns to his senses and is ready to hide and stay away from the road. He is shaken, but doesn't seem to yet fully understand what is going on with him and the Ring. I think that's a major part of why the Ring works…it's influence is such that it causes the Bearer to think that the actions it is influencing are HIS ideas alone.


4. How exactly is the Black Rider’s face simultaneously “shadowed and invisible,” according to the first physical description we receive of him? Is this more a reflection of Frodo’s lack of perception than the Rider’s actual physical form?

Hmm…I always read that as one in the same…the rider's face was shadowed and therefore invisible.

5. How might these moments of “I thought I saw...” fit into JRRT’s conception of Evil and its presence in the world? Does it also provide insight on our perception of Evil? Might this relate to the earlier question concerning invisibility vs. perception of reality?

Evil isn't always as obvious as a an ominous horseman hunting us down in our own backyard. There is a need to be suspicious that is very much in the nature of Hobbits toward any outsider. Then again, their experience is limited in that they have rarely encountered evil beyond small-town gossip.

As for our perception of evil? I think it's safe to say that ominous horsemen sniffing around really do make us put up the "evil radar." The reader knows something is coming for the Ring. This must be the something…it's dark, you can't see it, the voice is creepy…it crawls and sniffs. The whole thing just gives you the willies. So, I guess it plays on our own perceptions pretty well!

6. What are your thoughts on this flashback to Bagshot Row? Does this come across to you as forced suspense from the author?

This doesn't come across as forced suspense to me. It serves to give the other Hobbits a reason to really avoid the road and not argue with Frodo about it. It also confirms the fact that the riders are looking specifically for a Baggins from the Shire.

7. Does it make any sense, practically speaking, for them to continue along this path? Why not take a different path, since Frodo and Pippin were fairly familiar with these lands?

I'm not sure it does make practical sense. However, if I were a scared Hobbit, thinking that I had to leave my friends and strike out on my own, I would want to stick with what I know as long as possible.


sador
Half-elven


Dec 28 2014, 4:55pm

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1. Why does the Evil here not appear to affect the others?
Do you mean, why do they not feel the urge to dash and check it out? I guess they feel confident in Frodo's leadership; after all, they are just accompanying him so far. And they do not expect any danger in the Shire.

Rather, why does Tolkien choose to omit their reactions, in your opinion?
Ah - so that's what you've meant!
Well, all of The Fellowship of the Ring is more or less Frodo's book; there are very few sentences here which could not be actually written by Frodo himself. The Shire-gossip is described as if by a reporter, and we also learn of Sam's farewell visit to the beer-cellar (which Frodo probably caught immediately) and his ignorance of geography (which Frodo knew); also, the meeting with Gildor's elves is partially described from Pippin's POV, but even that is reported as he later recalled - i.e. as he later told Frodo.

Does this encounter with a Black Rider seem to disagree with their later experiences with Ringwraiths?
In Curious' thread we had a long debate about this. I refer you to FarFromHome's post.

2. We’ve discussed the role of the Ring many times, concerning its role as a character with some sort of will. What do you make of the Ring’s “agency” in a scene such as this?

It doesn't seem to be much. It doesn't really draw the Nazgul (with all due respect to what Aragorn says later) - it is more likely that he caught, or thought he did, a bit of sound or smell.
It might have inspired Frodo to try and use it. Maybe.

3. How does Frodo’s thought process strike you? What are your thoughts on Frodo’s first real experience with the Ring’s influence?

See above. But it does seem very rational, doesn't it?

Side note: I would love to further research the instances in which a Ring-bearer refers to the Ring in the possessive.

That's a good idea! I'll like to see the results. Unfortunately, I can't afford the time to do it myself at the present. Sorry.

4. How exactly is the Black Rider’s face simultaneously “shadowed and invisible,” according to the first physical description we receive of him?

Well, it is shodowed by the hood, and so invisible to Frodo. Not until Strider asserts that the Black Riders' clothes cover their nothingness, we do not know for sure.

Is this more a reflection of Frodo’s lack of perception than the Rider’s actual physical form?
Inability to see, rather than lack of perception.

5. How might these moments of “I thought I saw...” fit into JRRT’s conception of Evil and its presence in the world?

I like your observation.
But I'm not sure it is connected to our perception of Evil. It is about being on one's toes on one hand, and about stealth on the other. I don't think Anborn had a problem of percepetion of Gollum, it's just that the sneak was really good at his game.

Does it also provide insight on our perception of Evil? Might this relate to the earlier question concerning invisibility vs. perception of reality?
No necessarily.

6. What are your thoughts on this flashback to Bagshot Row? Does this come across to you as forced suspense from the author?

Not really. It mainly reinforces both Sam's simplicity, and the essential safety the hobbits feel in the Shire.

7. Does it make any sense, practically speaking, for them to continue along this path? Why not take a different path, since Frodo and Pippin were fairly familiar with these lands?

Was there any other way? I'm not sure of it, and getting off the road too early might really lead to them getting lost.


Kim
Valinor


Dec 28 2014, 10:44pm

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In Reply To

1. Why does the Evil here not appear to affect the others? Rather, why does Tolkien choose to omit their reactions, in your opinion? Does this encounter with a Black Rider seem to disagree with their later experiences with Ringwraiths? Since the story is still fairly new, and mostly focused on Frodo, it makes sense to focus on his reaction. We don't really know a lot about Sam or Pippin at this point. And we also learned a lot about the Ring in the previous chapter, so this is the first opportunity to see how it influences Frodo outside of his home and Gandalf's presence.


3. How does Frodo’s thought process strike you? What are your thoughts on Frodo’s first real experience with the Ring’s influence? It's interesting to see how it's already taken a pretty strong hold of him, and how quick he is to dismiss Gandalf's warning. And the perception he has that since they're still in the Shire, nothing bad could really happen, even after he's learned the history of the ring.


4. How exactly is the Black Rider’s face simultaneously “shadowed and invisible,” according to the first physical description we receive of him? Is this more a reflection of Frodo’s lack of perception than the Rider’s actual physical form? I just assumed it meant the figure was so covered up in it's cloak, they couldn't see it's face, but the assumption is still that it's just a Man underneath.


6. What are your thoughts on this flashback to Bagshot Row? Does this come across to you as forced suspense from the author? It didn't feel forced to me, actually more like fleshing out what we'd heard previously to get a more complete picture. Seeing the figure for himself triggered Sam to make the connection and remember the conversation.



7. Does it make any sense, practically speaking, for them to continue along this path? Why not take a different path, since Frodo and Pippin were fairly familiar with these lands? Perhaps they figured that the immediate danger had passed and the black rider was continuing along a different route, so it made more sense to stay on the path so that they didn't run into it again on a different path.


Thanks Cats!


#OneLastTime


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 28 2014, 10:46pm

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a creeping horror... [In reply to] Can't Post

Nowadays, I like the way this chapter and the next are written: Tolkien is determined not to tell us more than the hobbits know (almost always no more thanFrodo know as you point out) know. But I find myself more worried about things than the hobbits seem to be (even Frodo, and most certainly Pippin). They are maddeningly overconfident that nothing bad can happen so close to home: this used to be just too frustrating, but now I think it's a clever effect!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 28 2014, 11:23pm

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"his ring" [In reply to] Can't Post

This is one of the only two times we get "his ring" ( with the "his" meaning Frodo). On the other occasion, the speaker is Sam, spreading about the Ring to Galadriel. Nor, after the revelation that the Ring is the One Ring in chapter 2, does Frodo ever refer to it as "my ring". Maybe he is being careful not to get any more possessive about it than he can help?

Hooray for the Kindle search function, when these questions come along!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


sador
Half-elven


Dec 29 2014, 9:23am

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Such a contrast to Bilbo!

But of course, on Mount Doom Frodo claims it by saying "the Ring is mine".


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 29 2014, 11:46am

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"The Ring is mine!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes- a very significant exception!

There could be other possessive constructions I missed: I searched for "his ring" and then for "my ring", but stopped there.
Of course that also misses Gollum possessive statements (because he doesn't call the Ring a ring).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


Dec 29 2014, 1:45pm

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"Tolkien is determined not to tell us more than the hobbits know (almost always no more thanFrodo know as you point out) know. But I find myself more worried about things than the hobbits seem to be (even Frodo, and most certainly Pippin). They are maddeningly overconfident that nothing bad can happen so close to home."

Great point. This part of the book depicts the hobbits as quasi-children venturing out into the dangerous world of adults/Big People, and puts us in the role of adults, who instinctively want to watch out for children, especially when they're blundering into harm: even without an omniscient narrator, we know more than they do. Frodo & Sam wisen up a lot by the time they reach Mordor and are able to cross it with much better survival sense. From here to Rivendell, they seem so green and vulnerable at every turn that inside I keep thinking, "Watch out! Don't touch that! Don't go there!"


a.s.
Valinor


Dec 29 2014, 6:08pm

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Tolkien is purposely writing "comedy" into Book 1 [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien is intending us to see the hobbits and hobbit society in general in a comedic way (in the traditional sense of comedy as dealing with the affairs of mundane life in a humorous or light manner, not in the modern sense). He explains in Letters (probably more than once, I just happen to remember this letter because I have so many marginal notes, LOL):


Letter 109 to Stanley Unwin after Rayner Unwin had reviewed the manuscript:


"I return Rayner's remarks with thanks to you both. I am sorry he felt overpowered, and I particularly miss any reference to the comedy, with which I imagined the first 'book' was well supplied. It may have misfired. I cannot bear funny books or plays myself, I mean those that set out to be all comic; but it seems to me that in real life, as here, it is precisely against the darkness of the world that comedy arises, and it is best when that is not hidden."


He very much wants us to notice hobbit nature, hobbit resilience and love of home and hearth, and hobbit resourcefulness and good cheer.


a.s.

"an seileachan"


Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.




Darkstone
Immortal


Dec 29 2014, 8:07pm

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"This will be worse than the windmills." [In reply to] Can't Post

Witches have red eyes, and cannot see far, but they have a keen scent like the beasts, and are aware when human beings draw near.
-The Brothers Grimm, Hansel and Gretel

"You can know from what I tell you," said Halli, "that I met the man who said he was riding Saddle-head, and he told me to spread it abroad in the dwellings and the district. He was a huge man in a black cloak."
-The Saga of Grettir the Strong, 13th-14th Century

While they were thus talking there appeared on the road two friars of the order of St. Benedict, mounted on two dromedaries, for not less tall were the two mules they rode on. They wore travelling spectacles and carried sunshades; and behind them came a coach attended by four or five persons on horseback and two muleteers on foot. In the coach there was, as afterwards appeared, a Biscay lady on her way to Seville, where her husband was about to take passage for the Indies with an appointment of high honour. The friars, though going the same road, were not in her company; but the moment Don Quixote perceived them he said to his squire, "Either I am mistaken, or this is going to be the most famous adventure that has ever been seen, for those black bodies we see there must be, and doubtless are, magicians who are carrying off some stolen princess in that coach, and with all my might I must undo this wrong."
"This will be worse than the windmills," said Sancho.

-Miguel de Cervantes, Don Quixote,


1. Why does the Evil here not appear to affect the others?

Either the Evil of the rider is amplified by the ring (Which is weird since the ring shouldn’t be warning Frodo), or the rider is simply a rider and the ring is making Frodo paranoid.


Rather, why does Tolkien choose to omit their reactions, in your opinion?

First, so we are left wondering if Frodo’s viewpoint is reliable. Second, to hide Sam’s and Pippen’s status as important co-characters until the conspiracy is unmasked.


Does this encounter with a Black Rider seem to disagree with their later experiences with Ringwraiths?

The Black Riders seem to be more prone to action in a group. Also more vicious. Such is the way with evil.


2. We’ve discussed the role of the Ring many times, concerning its role as a character with some sort of will. What do you make of the Ring’s “agency” in a scene such as this?

Ambiguous. It seems to function almost like the Black Riders themselves, sensing their presence much like they sense its.


While they are hiding, there are a couple of quotes I found especially interesting:

“Frodo hesitated for a second: curiosity or some other feeling was struggling with his desire to hide.”


I wonder how many times 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien had to yell at his men to keep their heads down in the trenches. And how many times he saw the over-curious ones get their heads literally blown off.


“A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breathe, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he only had to slip it on, and then he would be safe. The advice of Gandalf seemed absurd. Bilbo had used the Ring. ‘And I am still in the Shire,’ he thought, as his hand touched the chain on which it hung.”

Indeed this is all sound, rational thinking. And in this case rational thinking would have led to disaster.


I am having trouble articulating exactly how I feel about these passages, and hope that others might have formed fuller thoughts on the language being used here.

3. How does Frodo’s thought process strike you?


Rational. Or rationalization.


What are your thoughts on Frodo’s first real experience with the Ring’s influence?

Basically a foreshadowing of the dilemma of the One Ring: Use it as reason would dictate? Or not use it and send it to Mordor on an irrational fool’s hope? Frodo will use it either accidentally or deliberately a couple of times during the trip to Rivendell. That Frodo does not use it later on (except arguably a time or two to command Gollum) shows he eventually learns which choice is the best.


Invisibility

4. How exactly is the Black Rider’s face simultaneously “shadowed and invisible,” according to the first physical description we receive of him?


Of course it cannot be both, which points to the ambiguousness of its appearance. We are informed that it is a Man and not an Elf or a Wizard, which indicates some sort of “tell” is visible.


Is this more a reflection of Frodo’s lack of perception than the Rider’s actual physical form?

As with his glimpse of the Pale Kings on Weathertop, the ring may be allowing Frodo to see both.


On a similar note, I would like to point out a brief passage concerning the Rider’s disappearance:

“Frodo crawled to the edge of the road and watched the rider, until he dwindled into the distance. He could not be quite sure, but it seemed to him that suddenly, before it passed out of sight, the horse turned aside and went into the trees on the right.”

This is the first occurrence of what I like to call “I saw, or I thought I saw” moments in LotR. A character usually (though not in this case) looks behind the group, and thinks they see something trailing them. In this case, of course, it’s different in that Frodo appears to see the Black Rider disappear off the road.


With the conceit authorship of The Red Book of Westmarch, this may be Frodo being scrupulously careful to avoid the charge of unreliable narrator that Bilbo suffered.

Of course one might carry the concept a bit too far:

Anne was seated on the springboard; she turned her head. Jubal called out, "That new house on the far hilltop - can you see what color they've painted it?"
Anne looked in the direction in which Jubal was pointing and answered, "It's white on this side."

-Robert A. Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land


5. How might these moments of “I thought I saw...” fit into JRRT’s conception of Evil and its presence in the world?

This fits in with Frodo’s later thought: ”I would think that a servant of the Enemy would look fair and feel foul.”, echoing MacBeth’s witches: "Fair is foul, and foul is fair: Hover through the fog and filthy air." (Act I, scene 1.)

However, as I’ve often noted, I can’t for the life of me think of any servant of the Enemy that looked fair.


Does it also provide insight on our perceptionn of Evil?

I am an invisible man. No, I am not a spook like those who haunted Edgar Allen Poe; nor am I one of your Hollywood-movie extoplasms. I am a man of substance, of flesh and bone, fiber and liquids—and I might even be said to possess a mind. I am invisible, understand, simply because people refuse to see me. Like the bodiless heads you see sometimes in circus sideshows, it is as though I have been surrounded by mirrors of hard, distorting glass. When they approach me they see only my surroundings, themselves, or figments of their imagination—indeed, everything and anything except me.
-Ralph Ellison, Invisible Man

Or, to slightly paraphrase Edmund Burke,"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to see nothing."


Might this relate to the earlier question concerning invisibility vs. perception of reality?

Like the emperor’s new clothes.


The hobbits reconvene afterwards, and after questions about the possible identity of the Black Rider, Sam remembers what the Gaffer told him before they left.

I find this flashback and the conversation that follows to be very cinematic in its pacing and presentation to the reader.

6. What are your thoughts on this flashback to Bagshot Row?


It serves to show that Sam is either a bit slow, or else that for now he’s focused on the more mundane organization of the journey and leaving the bigger concerns to others. If it’s the latter we may expect his character to grow during the story.


Does this come across to you as forced suspense from the author?

This is an added bit of suspense: They are being tracked!


After becoming unsettled by Sam’s story, they decide to continue onward off of the Road.

7. Does it make any sense, practically speaking, for them to continue along this path?


They’re following the road while keeping under the cover of the treeline. Pretty sensible in my book and doubtless 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien’s as well. (One of the duties of a Signals Officer would be traffic control to and from the front lines, including making sure moving troops weren’t exposed to enemy fire.)


Why not take a different path, since Frodo and Pippin were fairly familiar with these lands?

“Fairly” being the operative word. It’s bad enough they’re being stalked, but it’ll be far worse if they get lost and start thrashing around randomly. Easy pickings for any hunter.

******************************************
"We were somewhere around Cerin Amroth, in the heart of Elvendom, when the miruvor began to take hold."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 30 2014, 12:28pm

Post #13 of 17 (4363 views)
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the temptations of Frodo Baggins [In reply to] Can't Post

This moment (where Frodo feels a strange compulsion to put the Ring on) is the first of a series of such things. In the movie, one is pushed toward the conclusion that this is something that either the Ring it is doing ("the Ring wants to be found") or that it's something the Rider is doing (or both, of course).
That seems a perfectly reasonable conclusion, though only one of the possible ones.

It's a good point that some of all this could be coming from Frodo's self though!. There won't always be a Rider obviously in evidence when these things happen- in the barrow, or the Prancing Pony, for example.

In the book, there's much less of a suggestion of how things are happening: we get only Frodo's thoughts about the 'what' that is happening. I think that's the same in the further episodes (though I think it's pretty clear that the Rider can compel Frodo to put on the Ring at Weathertop).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 30 2014, 2:39pm

Post #14 of 17 (4356 views)
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Late again, but I'll try to get to the rest later today. [In reply to] Can't Post


I noticed in this passage that no mentions of Sam and Pippin’s thoughts/experiences are present, and we are only given Frodo’s perspective.

1. Why does the Evil here not appear to affect the others? Rather, why does Tolkien choose to omit their reactions, in your opinion? Does this encounter with a Black Rider seem to disagree with their later experiences with Ringwraiths?

I think that the first comment answers part of the first question. This is a very Frodo-centric chapter and I don't think we have quite warmed to the character just yet. We have enough to develop some sympathy (Orphan and all) but no real attachment. In the sea of names and places we have just been given, as well as the history lesson by Gandalf, we need to refocus on Frodo before we get too lost. It is his story and a change to a slower pace lets us internalise what we have learned, while the first-person POV makes it person to Frodo.


2. We’ve discussed the role of the Ring many times, concerning its role as a character with some sort of will. What do you make of the Ring’s “agency” in a scene such as this?

Well, I used to think it was almost undeniable, but the revelation that others do not think so makes me wonder. In very many ways the Ring is anthropomorphised, but how much of that is really literal? We don't have experience of magical rings, so naturally to understand the plot, we must have something we do understand, and maybe that results in a 'sentient ring'? I really must re-think my position on this matter in order to comment more thoroughly.

While they are hiding, there are a couple of quotes I found especially interesting:

“Frodo hesitated for a second: curiosity or some other feeling was struggling with his desire to hide.”

[.]

“A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breathe, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he only had to slip it on, and then he would be safe. The advice of Gandalf seemed absurd. Bilbo had used the Ring. ‘And I am still in the Shire,’ he thought, as his hand touched the chain on which it hung.”

I am having trouble articulating exactly how I feel about these passages, and hope that others might have formed fuller thoughts on the language being used here.

I interperet the first instance to be a clever foreshadowing, or else a subtle hint to the Ring's malevolence. It could be curiosity, but then again why mention something else? Tolkien was not one to waste words, so it is there to interest us in a mystery of the perils in the Ring, as well as show the unease caused by the Riders.

I see the second as an expression of what squire said was one of the powers of the Ring: increasing ego. Here the thought-process is very Frodo-centric and he rationlises to himself the furtherance of his own ideas. It shows the corruptive mature of the Ring very well, as well as it's quick working and subtle.


3. How does Frodo’s thought process strike you? What are your thoughts on Frodo’s first real experience with the Ring’s influence?

Side note: I would love to further research the instances in which a Ring-bearer refers to the Ring in the possessive.

See Above:


Invisibility

4. How exactly is the Black Rider’s face simultaneously “shadowed and invisible,” according to the first physical description we receive of him? Is this more a reflection of Frodo’s lack of perception than the Rider’s actual physical form?

I always interpreted it to mean 'hidden in shadow, thus invisible'. One interesting thing about the word 'invisible' is the fact that it literally mean 'not able to be seen', so often I think we see it as meaning 'transparent' or 'non-existant', but I think it follows a more literal meaning here.


5. How might these moments of “I thought I saw...” fit into JRRT’s conception of Evil and its presence in the world? Does it also provide insight on our perception of Evil? Might this relate to the earlier question concerning invisibility vs. perception of reality?


More foreshadowing and building sense of peril. This whole chapter is rife with it such as none other, I think, until 'Fog on the Barrow-Downs'.

The hobbits reconvene afterwards, and after questions about the possible identity of the Black Rider, Sam remembers what the Gaffer told him before they left.

I find this flashback and the conversation that follows to be very cinematic in its pacing and presentation to the reader.

6. What are your thoughts on this flashback to Bagshot Row? Does this come across to you as forced suspense from the author?

No, it just allows us to have more pieces to construct our own picture of theses strange riders. Tolkien keeps us ahead of the Hobbits here. They have no idea that the Riders have anything to do with the Ring, bu twe have a suspicion at least. I think the extra information is here to keep us ahead of the Hobbits a while longer.

After becoming unsettled by Sam’s story, they decide to continue onward off of the Road.

7. Does it make any sense, practically speaking, for them to continue along this path? Why not take a different path, since Frodo and Pippin were fairly familiar with these lands?

Didn't Gandalf say not to use the road? If so, maybe his advice is their saving grace here?


Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


Rembrethil
Tol Eressea


Dec 31 2014, 3:01am

Post #15 of 17 (4344 views)
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Where were the Nine? [In reply to] Can't Post

 Tolkien says both 'the Nine the Nazgûl keep' and that 'Sauron has gathered the Nine to himself', so.....Tongue


Personally, I am of the impression that Sauron had them. And that maybe he allowed them to pet their rings once every few hundred years or soCrazy.

However this whole line of thinking causes me to question a wraith's physical form. How did they wear rings if they were incorporeal? If they became incorporeal, how did Sauron get them off their fingers? Were they just invisible? Could they lose them? How could they hold things like swords? If only one of these were answered, I could be more sure, but...

I am left to conclude that they probably had some kind of substance. I don't recall them passing through any walls like the typical ghost might, but neither do we hear of them bumping into things. What if one of the Nazgul just so happened to be clumsy? Whew! Sauron really dodged that bullet!Wink But then again, losing their clothes crippled them, so they didn't just need the cloaks to be visible. They must have needed them to give themselves shape or else they would have picked up their swords and dogged Frodo in stealth-mode.Cool

Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?


cats16
Half-elven


Dec 31 2014, 5:04am

Post #16 of 17 (4349 views)
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Part 3 coming soon. [In reply to] Can't Post

I'll be catching up on each thread, and posting the concluding thread to this chapter in the next day or so.

Great thoughts so far, everyone!



Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!




noWizardme
Half-elven


Dec 31 2014, 8:18am

Post #17 of 17 (4375 views)
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....And thanks for leading us through it!// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154

 
 

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