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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Tibboh eht: Noissucsid Eivom:
Galadriel's Power Drain?
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Girdle of Melian
Neirol

Dec 26 2014, 8:16am

Post #1 of 40 (2082 views)
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Galadriel's Power Drain? Can't Post

What do you think was the real reason PJ (or Boyens) had to do it this way...

I would have no problem if the effort to defeat Sauron was a solo effort in her part or a collective one with Saruman, Radagast, and Elrond, or even other Elves for that matter. Do you think it could have been just to appease fan boys who can't handle an interpretation of a more powerful Galadriel, not piss of Gandalf fans that an Elf showed more power than an Istari, or do you really think that she somehow transferred all her energy to healing Gandalf (note that Tauriel did not "faint' or even Arwen when they tried to heal, nor did Gandalf when he tried to exercise Theoden from Saruman's control). Honestly, her lying on the floor there helpless, relying on Saruman and Elrond, was not a WISE decision in her part, especially since the Nazgul can appear and reappear at will. I mean, Radagast could have healed and protected Gandalf, as he holstered him away later on the sled.

Of course, it could have just been bad writing..lol.

GOM


ElendilTheShort
Rodnog


Dec 26 2014, 8:27am

Post #2 of 40 (1590 views)
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by fan boys do you mean those that wanted these characters to be more rather than less based on Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

she still came across as more powerful than G the Grey, he couldn't withstand Sauron in DOS whereas she pretty much sent the big S packing.

Her being all faint like that fits in with Tolkiens writing in that respect at least. Gandalf was somewhat similar after his first encounter with the Balrog, prior to realising who he was up against, Aragorn was pretty knackered after confronting Sauron via the Palantir, and Finrod had to put forth all his power to break his bonds in the dungeons of Sauron, although he still managed to wrassle a werewolf in defense of Beren after doing so.


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Dec 26 2014, 8:28am

Post #3 of 40 (1636 views)
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Pretty much bad writing based on a misinterpreted quote... [In reply to] Can't Post

According to Boyens in the EMPIRE podcast, they liked the idea of Galadriel being diminished by her confrontation with Sauron, so that she is lesser in power by the time of "FotR" - and she mentioned this quote as her justification! Crazy



Quote
I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.





"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ŋ Victoria Monfort


ecthelionsbeard
Neirol

Dec 26 2014, 9:15am

Post #4 of 40 (1526 views)
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I don't think it was bad writing at all... [In reply to] Can't Post

She came to rescue Gandalf from the fortress and then heard the black speech from Sauron about the 9 rings for mortal men, confirming to her at that moment he indeed made a return and was right there. Freaky to say the least. In addition, the 9 began to surround her from all sides. As powerful as she was, I think she feared she couldn't take on the 9, Sauron himself and protect an unconscious Gandalf all at once. She was terrified. But then when Saruman and Elrond show up, it turns the tide. The fact that it took at least Saruman and Galadriel's combined efforts at the end of the scene to banish Sauron and the 9 from Dol Goldur all but confirms to me she could not have done it on her own earlier.


ElendilTheShort
Rodnog


Dec 26 2014, 9:28am

Post #5 of 40 (1556 views)
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first time ive heard of this quote [In reply to] Can't Post

and its showing that they are on a downward trajectory when it comes to understanding, interpreting and adapting Tolkiens work


irasel
Erihs Eht


Dec 26 2014, 9:51am

Post #6 of 40 (1532 views)
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I think Sauron started consuming her since she entered Dol Guldur. [In reply to] Can't Post

We know Gandalf was being drained while he was in Dol Guldur (Galadriel says so), so we can assume she could be affected by the same magic. So she could be already weakened when she healed Gandalf (and healing Sauron's direct damages may be more consuming than Morgul weapons injuries). Of the three power consuming facts (Dol Guldur draining, Gandalf's healing and Sauron's banishing), maybe the last two were irreversible (the first one is not, Gandalf looks recovered when he leaves Dol Guldur).


Spriggan
Aessere Lot

Dec 26 2014, 10:53am

Post #7 of 40 (1497 views)
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I think this sort if engineer's mindset is unlikely to be any sort of clue. [In reply to] Can't Post

The goal of the scene isn't to create a relative hierarchy or a series of tolerances for these characters. That isn't of any interest to anyone but the most esoteric of a certain type of reader.

The goal of the scene is to be interesting, dramatic, stirring, mysterious etc. etc. and the characters are there to serve the story, not the other way around!

But then I think the relationship that some "fans" have with the characters is so outside the ordinary that it probably makes it difficult to see things through any other eyes, as it were.


ElendilTheShort
Rodnog


Dec 26 2014, 11:28am

Post #8 of 40 (1470 views)
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i think only those whose primary interest or backround is gaming would look for absolutes in any type of heirachy [In reply to] Can't Post

generally i don't think viewers have a problem with seeing aspects of the story through others eyes, it is when claims are made of honoring or being in the spirit of tolkiens work are made but the actual content is the equivalent of poor fan fiction that people object.

i liked almost all of the Dol Guldor scene but the characters of Galadriel, Sauron or the Nine were not representative of what JRRT wrote about them at least in part, with Galadriel being the most extreme diversion, turning into the Grudge/Ring spectre, whereas Elrond and Saruman seemed to fit in very well with his writing. if the film makers want to do their own thing with a character that is their call, such as their drastic changes to Aragorn, even giving reasons as to why, but they shouldn't try to attribute extreme changes as their interpretation of Tolkiens work.


Spriggan
Aessere Lot

Dec 26 2014, 11:39am

Post #9 of 40 (1461 views)
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Interpretation is just that. [In reply to] Can't Post

I've no idea about gaming but there are enormous numbers of posts about character x being more powerful than character y (and in this thread too!)

It's not the goal of the film to establish such hierarchies - so the premise of the question based on such ideas seems unlikely to me to be the case.

I think your point about interpretation is probably just taken as read by others - an interpretation is always the interpreters response and vision. That's what it means.


ElendilTheShort
Rodnog


Dec 26 2014, 11:51am

Post #10 of 40 (1465 views)
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using aragorns example [In reply to] Can't Post

that was not an interpretation, that was a signficantly changed character. book aragorn was always aiming to defeat sauron and become king of gondor & arnor. movie aragorn never wanted to be king until near the very end of the movies.

the fact book aragorn carried anduril from imladris was not interpreted by the film makers that he carried it from rohan, it was a fact that was changed by them.


Spriggan
Aessere Lot

Dec 26 2014, 12:05pm

Post #11 of 40 (1451 views)
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Absolutely. [In reply to] Can't Post

As I say, that's surely taken as read. This is an adaptation and is the adaptor's response to the original, not the original itself.

It seems to me like noting that a cover version of a song is not the same as the original. Absolutely correct, but I think already generally understood.


Nerven
Llednevir

Dec 26 2014, 1:52pm

Post #12 of 40 (1418 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post

I have no problem that she seems so weak after her confrontation with sauron (if she did it alone or with Sarumans help I donīt know, but wasnīt it anyway speculated that Saruman was actually working against her, so maybe another reason for her to be exhausted), after all she healed Gandalf and the place itself seems to consume her power too but I donīt like the concept, that Philippa introduced to us, that the loss of some parts of her power is permanent and that just because they are not able to interpret the quote "I WILL diminish (not, I diminished) and return to the west" as it was supposed to be.

As to the question what their reason were, they wanted it to make more thrilling for the audience and didnīt care if that does justice to Galadriels character or not, honestly I donīt think that a problem, maybe annoying but much more worse is their interpretation of Galadriel appearing as a demon like thing, really what has that to do with Tolkiens Galadriel? Somewhere it was stated that PJ s interpretation was that Saruman was controlling Galadriel in that moment in her fight against Sauron, hindering her in her fight. I have no idea if PJ really stated that, if yes, that even more nonesense.


(This post was edited by Nerven on Dec 26 2014, 1:58pm)


Tintallë
Rodnog


Dec 26 2014, 4:55pm

Post #13 of 40 (1419 views)
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Galadriel spoke that line in the FOTR movie [In reply to] Can't Post

just after she resisted taking the ring when Frodo offered it to her, in the infamous "nuclear Galadriel" scene. She acknowledged that her commitment to Sauron's downfall would mean her own loss of power as well, since her own ring, Nenya, would become nothing more than a pretty little piece of jewelry if Frodo succeeded in his quest.

It wasn't the quote that bothered me; it was Galadriel using Nenya to vanquish Sauron. In the LOTR books she used her power to shield her people and protect her land from evil, and she told Frodo that Sauron did not yet suspect that she held one of the Elven rings. This movie scene blew that out of the water! Sauron could have had no doubt that Galadriel had a ring after being the target of its power.


Spriggan
Aessere Lot

Dec 26 2014, 5:26pm

Post #14 of 40 (1400 views)
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A couple of points [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly, why would we think she used Nenya? The audience can see it, but that doesn't mean she used it against Sauron (in fact, we see the phial in that scene instead so I would think that steers us away from the use of the ring).

Secondly, she actually says in the FOTR text that he does suspect, but does not yet know (and UT suggests he had suspected Galadriel since the Second Age)


Tintallë
Rodnog


Dec 26 2014, 6:05pm

Post #15 of 40 (1373 views)
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??? [In reply to] Can't Post

So are you saying that you think Galadriel was not drawing on her ring's power when she fought Sauron at Dol Goldur? Hmmm. I assumed she was using all the power she could summon, which would include the power of Nenya. I feel the shot of the ring on her finger was meant to convey that to the audience, as was the similarity to her FOTR scene. I missed seeing the phial but I can't imagine that the starlight alone would be enough against Sauron, no matter how beloved the star from whence it came.

Her remark in the text is exactly what I was referring to; it's one that made it into the movie as well. If she did not use Nenya at Dol Goldur then the BOTFA scene meshes with what follows in LOTR, but if she did then Sauron could have no doubt of her possessing a ring of power.


Spriggan
Aessere Lot

Dec 26 2014, 6:40pm

Post #16 of 40 (1368 views)
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Nenya doesn't obviously have power as a direct offensive weapon. [In reply to] Can't Post

But more importantly I don't think there is anything in that scene which particularly suggests she is using it. They show the phial, suggesting it is a tool in use, but not the ring.

I'm actually struggling to find the line in the LOTR script - which scene was it in?


ElendilTheShort
Rodnog


Dec 26 2014, 6:47pm

Post #17 of 40 (1356 views)
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the elven rings were not weapons at all [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But more importantly I don't think there is anything in that scene which particularly suggests she is using it. They show the phial, suggesting it is a tool in use, but not the ring.

I'm actually struggling to find the line in the LOTR script - which scene was it in?


they were used in the pursuit of preservation

at best the argument could be made that they were used defensively if the movie makers were to attempt to stick to claims of source material relevance, but even that is a stretch.


Spriggan
Aessere Lot

Dec 26 2014, 7:05pm

Post #18 of 40 (1333 views)
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Preservation, healing, building, inspiration and defense [In reply to] Can't Post

So, things which might be useful during a conflict but not as a direct weapon, I agree.

But, as I say, I don't see any evidence of Galdriel using hers against Sauron in that scene.


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Dec 26 2014, 9:33pm

Post #19 of 40 (1329 views)
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It's around the 9 minute mark if you want to check it out... [In reply to] Can't Post

http://www.empireonline.com/.../story.asp?NID=42996




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ŋ Victoria Monfort


ElendilTheShort
Rodnog


Dec 26 2014, 9:56pm

Post #20 of 40 (1323 views)
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terrible [In reply to] Can't Post

especially because PB says that she imagines that is what JRRT was getting at. In LOTR Galadriel says she will diminish (meaning in the future as amongst other things she will no longer rule her own realm) it did not mean that she was diminished by some previous battle in the past that never actually happened in JRRT's work as Sauron feigned to flee before them driven out by the devices of Saruman.

Can PB actually hear herself. The reasons she gives have no logical cohesion or outcome.


Spriggan
Aessere Lot

Dec 26 2014, 10:14pm

Post #21 of 40 (1303 views)
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Well that's not clear at all. [In reply to] Can't Post

The suggestion that the battle never happened in the text is only one option, and not where the balance of suggestion lies, in my view.

It's a bit misleading to state it as a fact, when I'm sure you are aware it's down to reader interpretation.


Eruonen
Nevle-flah


Dec 26 2014, 10:27pm

Post #22 of 40 (1305 views)
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We don't know specifically the powers of Nenya, but Galadriel did [In reply to] Can't Post

thrown down the walls of Dol Guldur. Protection may have been one power as well, which could be used to repel Sauron.

*The Noldor that remain in Middle-Earth are all exceptionally powerful, since they have the power of Aman in them. (Galdriel)

http://www.flark.org/.../magicintolkien.html

The longer the elves stay in ME the more they slowly fade.


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 26 2014, 10:29pm)


ElendilTheShort
Rodnog


Dec 26 2014, 10:30pm

Post #23 of 40 (1282 views)
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fair call by you in that respect [In reply to] Can't Post

i should have clarified that there is absolutely no hint at all in any of JRRT's writing that Galadriel was ever diminished by a confrontation with Sauron.

If the movie makers want to change their story to that, so be it but they shouldn't spread misinformation about JRRT's work in doing so. I will not hazard a guess to her motivation.


Spriggan
Aessere Lot

Dec 26 2014, 10:42pm

Post #24 of 40 (1276 views)
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Absolutely. [In reply to] Can't Post

The idea of diminishment being a continuation of events which included DG is imagination on the part of the filmmakers (though not contradictory to anything in the texts either, as a side note).

I was referring entirely to the question of whether there was a battle at DG in the books.


Eleniel
Aessere Lot


Dec 26 2014, 10:56pm

Post #25 of 40 (1273 views)
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That's an interesting one... [In reply to] Can't Post

because, the attack on Mirkwood and cleansing of DG took place after the One Ring was cast into Mount Doom, and thus technically the power of the Three was destroyed also, so either there was some residual power left in Nenya, or it was Galadriel's own magic of Elvenesse that allowed her to tear down the walls. Many like to liken her actions to Luthien bringing down the fortress of Tol-im-Gaurhoth in the Sil, which was actually a case of Luthien revoking the spell of binding holding the stones in place (obtained from Sauron under duress,) so I can quite imagine whatever power Galadriel used there being of a similar, organic nature.




"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
Ŋ Victoria Monfort

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