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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 5:46am
Post #1 of 55
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I am still not sure exactly how Bard cobbled together a bow strong enough
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to launch the black "arrow". It looks like he slams the sharp end pieces of the broken bow into the tower wood and can pull back on the bowstring without it pulling free the shattered bow from the wood.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Dec 26 2014, 8:18am
Post #2 of 55
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Unfortunately it was an utter nonsense moment
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made worse by Smaug walking to his doom like a giant idiot, further reducing his potency as a formidable villain. He saw the bow, why not fly up out of it's limited trajectory range and fry Bard and Bain. Between that and the dwarves running rings around him in Erebor he came across as a bit of a joke at times. I mean if 8 or so dwarves managed to outwit him, how did he ever live during his initial raid on the mountain all those years ago.
All in all this was less believable and not as impressive as Bards heroic shot and Smaug's downfall in the book.
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the 13th warrior
Rivendell
Dec 26 2014, 8:49am
Post #3 of 55
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I am certain this was a problematic non credible action sequence
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Eruonen, I am glad you raised this point. I found this part of the film really straining any sort of credibility even downright silly. Yes the arrow shot is rather important to the story isn't it? Bard's over his kid's shoulder aiming reminded me of a western where the drunk or injured cowboy puts his rifle on shoulder of sidekick, kid, random bystander, and says "Hold steady will ya for Pete's sake??"
The makeshift arrow launcher looked flimsy and unbelievable as a real weapon. I am surprised Bard didn"t go Middle Earth MacGuyver and chew some gum, apply that to the contraption, then tighten it with his handy Swiss-Elven army knife, heck why not use some Dwarf make rubber bands???
It was very annoying, though I supposed PJ was going for the father and son team up to defeat the dragon for emotional tugging of the heartstrings not to make it believable for the bowstrings. Still it should have been much better thought out. I found battle and death of Smaug too short, abbreviated, parts missing, and not a grand enough ending for this dragon, a most unique critter in the Tolkien universe. Somehow the collapsing tower in flames, makeshift launcher, Bard and son, scrambling around, while a winged monster 100s of feet long is flying to them, belching flames and sarcasm was more James Bond or Indy Jones than JRR.
Thoughts comments suggestions???
The 13th Warrior in puzzlement.
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mirkwoodwanderer
Lorien
Dec 26 2014, 10:24am
Post #6 of 55
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you have to stop watching the movie as an adult
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The book is for kids and PJ just kept it that way as you can see with many examples.. For the adults he added a bit more in E.E.
but it is a bedtime story, not something to think about too much as an adult. That ruins all (always btw).
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Dec 26 2014, 10:50am
Post #7 of 55
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i wouldnt want my children seeing this movie due to the level of violence
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and i do not consider the nature of how the dwarf/elf romance was played out was aimed at an audience of children
in short i think the childrens story argument is trying to explain away poor creative choices if someone is making claims on that basis
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 26 2014, 11:00am
Post #8 of 55
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Here is a picture of a man using a makeshift bow to shoot a talking dragon
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Please circle the bit you find impossible........
Yep, looks like he wedges them into a vertical gap in the wooden uprights.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Dec 26 2014, 11:42am
Post #9 of 55
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that tolkien worked hard to ground his world within physical realities. the inclusion of fantastical elements was not meant to diminish that, otherwise we could argue that no one should be suprised if Lobelia Sackville Baggins showed up and slew Smaug with one of Bilbos spoons she managed to pilfer.
furthermore if physical realities could be completely ignored why did the film makers bother to supersize the black arrow(s) for their supersized smaug
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Roheryn
Tol Eressea
Dec 26 2014, 12:04pm
Post #10 of 55
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to use punctuation. Correctly, even.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 26 2014, 12:19pm
Post #11 of 55
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Only probability rather than reality
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Rather fortunate for Bard, but a bit if fortune isn't anything to worry about, I don't think. It's an interesting visual image for a visual medium.
And it's a tricky business if anything improbable in the text is classified as a fantastical element and treated differently.
More to the point, it's not a distinction that exercises the general viewer, I don't think.
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Arvida
The Shire
Dec 26 2014, 12:54pm
Post #12 of 55
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You're talking about a story that has a talking purse and mountain giants, too...
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 26 2014, 1:11pm
Post #13 of 55
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Or, without leaving the scene in question, genetic language learning.
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Bard, without learning it, has an ability to understand a different language simply because of his ancestry.
This, I should say, fine and interesting in my book but difficult to see as an exemplar of realism.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Dec 26 2014, 1:37pm
Post #14 of 55
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Well, as PJ said in one of the DOS appendices...
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"if you're a scientist, just go make a nice cup of tea now"
That's just the way these movies are. The list of illogical things that happen in these movies is a mile long, but the adventure is so exciting, the characters are so well done and the visuals are so grand that I can live with that and enjoy them anyway. It's much more pleasant to chuckle at the absurdities than to worry about them.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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tsmith675
Gondor
Dec 26 2014, 2:57pm
Post #15 of 55
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Something you have to have in literally every movie, TV show, book, comic book, or any form of media.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Dec 26 2014, 5:56pm
Post #16 of 55
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to use punctuation. Correctly, even.
for the consiDeration? IT is a shame you chose to, submit a snarky comment about a example of Casual writing on an internet forum and try. To compare it to the riting in a published book instead of" contributing to the discussion!
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Dec 26 2014, 6:11pm
Post #17 of 55
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that is a good example of a fantastical element
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Bard, without learning it, has an ability to understand a different language simply because of his ancestry.
This, I should say, fine and interesting in my book but difficult to see as an exemplar of realism.
as are talking purses, dog valets, elves and dragons. Yet none of these performed physical miracles. Tolkien makes note of exceptional physical events and embeds them in the mythology as such, with no explanation other than linking them to exceptional beings or circumstances. Examples would be Legolas walking on the snow, his ease of walking over the rope bridge, him leaping lightly up to reach a tree branch well above his head, Gandalfs fall at the bridge, subsequent pursuit and battle which was supernatural in its duration and the Leap of Beren.
Otherwise in his writing as he wrote "miles are miles".
The scientist comment as it relates to some of the events in the movies can only be used to justify a lack of care in maintaining some semblance of physical reality for things such as dwarves falling 100's of feet without injury or Azog somehow jettisoning himself out of the icy water.
None of this touches on dim witted Smaug which was by far the biggest travesty in this scene. He possesed none of the cunning evil that Tolkiens dragons are known for.
(This post was edited by ElendilTheShort on Dec 26 2014, 6:15pm)
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Moahunter
Rohan
Dec 26 2014, 6:13pm
Post #18 of 55
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If you can't suspend disbelief who is at fault?
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You or the creator of the work.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 26 2014, 6:29pm
Post #19 of 55
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Bard is a mundane man. How is it less improbable for him to know a language via his genetics than to be able to wedge a piece of wood into a gap firmly?
I don't think Smaug comes across as dim witted and I have yet to see any reviews suggest anything but the opposite. It is not the effect achieved, as far as I can see.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Dec 26 2014, 6:29pm
Post #20 of 55
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if you are forced to suspend belief
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You or the creator of the work.
for almost every aspect of the story told, down to the details of how almost every physical activity is achieved then it is the fault of the creator as they don't have the skill to tell a story within certain limitations. It leads to internal inconsistencies in the story which makes the threats to the characters less real, and their successes hollow.
As an example, as much as I hated the scene, within PJ's movie I can accept Tauriels healing of Kili as it is consistent within the movie world and has some distant grounding in the books with elves being superior at all things to humans, and the healing prowess shown by Elrond and Galadriel being particularly of note.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 6:41pm
Post #21 of 55
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The book was just fine..adults and children....black arrow into his heart.
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DigificWriter
Lorien
Dec 26 2014, 6:41pm
Post #22 of 55
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... was actually more of a gigantic slingshot, so I'm not really seeing the issue here.
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ElendilTheShort
Gondor
Dec 26 2014, 6:42pm
Post #23 of 55
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men understanding the language of birds is fantastical, i don't now how else to put it.
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Bard is a mundane man. How is it less improbable for him to know a language via his genetics than to be able to wedge a piece of wood into a gap firmly?
I don't think Smaug comes across as dim witted and I have yet to see any reviews suggest anything but the opposite. It is not the effect achieved, as far as I can see.
He is dim witted, he walks towards a foe within the significantly limited trajectory of a makeshift weapon. That alone marks him as stupid. Given his prowess and nature he would have flown out of the weapons field of fire, which was only a few degrees vertically or horizontally, and fried them both, an action that should have been instintive to such a creature.
A bird flies away from you when you approach it, removes itself from perceived danger. I can willingly suspend belief to include a dragon in a story but I cannot willingly suspend belief to accept that dragon is intelligent and cunning as he walks headlong towards danger when he did not have to.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 6:45pm
Post #24 of 55
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Suspension of belief does not apply here...this is simply a
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mechanical issue, not a concern over the reality of dragons.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 6:46pm
Post #25 of 55
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The question concerns how he made it, it is hard to tell from the film
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exactly how he used a broken bow to create a large enough pull for the black bolt/arrow.
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