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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 5:44pm
Post #51 of 109
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if Gandalf had no need of a Ring of Power, why didn't Cirdan keep it for himself? I don't think he gave it to Gandalf to be unused in a walking safe-deposit box.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 5:55pm
Post #52 of 109
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Tea: I agree with you that Tolkien was most probably writing about traditional tea, i.e., the stuff that comes from the tropics. But people had been making herbal tea from local herbs forever in Europe before "tea" came from Asia, so there's the remote chance that Bilbo's tea was mint tea or something similar.
Lack of banks: it seems to me that JRR doesn't give encyclopedic detail to document everything, so the Shire could very well have had banks. We only seem to know that Michel Delving had a museum, for example, because of off-hand remarks about it, not through an exposition such as, "Michel Delving was the center of administration in the Shire, home to the Mint, the Museum, the main Post Office,..." And now that I bring up the Mint, do we know there wasn't one? Coins were used in the Shire and Bree, but who made them: hobbits, Dwarves, Elves, Rangers?
But otherwise, I appreciate your point about Frodo seeming to run out of money: how could that happen unless the estates supporting Bag End stopped producing rent? Still, real history is littered with aristocratic families who fell on hard times for any number of reasons, so feudal rental income can't be considered insurance against bankruptcy. Bilbo's lavish birthday party could have been debt-financed, leaving Frodo in ruin. Luckily the Shire didn't seem to have debtors' prisons.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 6:06pm
Post #53 of 109
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Natural reluctance from one living in comfort
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Your point about Frodo being comforted by Gandalf's presence brings up the sense of comfort in general that Frodo enjoyed vs the discomforts he would face. How many of us, who enjoy electricity, running water, the internet, etc, would jump out of our homes and go camping in blankets for the next 6 months because someone told us we would eventually be in danger, but there is no danger to be seen?
Frodo was giving up a lot by leaving Bag End. The Fellowship never even had tents to sleep in, nor sleeping bags, nor a million other things. I think we'd all stall as long as we possibly could. Camping for a week or two can be fun, but when it becomes your *future*, it's decidedly not fun.
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 9:38pm
Post #54 of 109
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Which, I'm sure, was much more difficult, given Bilbo's seemingly spur-of-the-moment adventure. It would be one thing if Gandalf had 'pushed' Frodo out of the door in April, demanding he left the Shire that instant in fear of his safety. Instead, it is all very calculated, without substantial great risk for Frodo in the immediate future being made clear by Gandalf (IMO).
There's a responsibility to it all, making that first step feel insurmountable.
Camping for a week or two can be fun, but when it becomes your *future*, it's decidedly not fun.
Very true; especially when you're in constant alertness due to spies/foes on the road. Exhausting!
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 27 2014, 4:02pm
Post #55 of 109
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Having to sell Bag End: how convincing is the cover story?
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One of the things I am enjoying about this read through already is the opportunity to see all the things that I don't usually pick up! I used to struggle with this chapter: after Chapter 2, I'm busy thinking "fly, you fools!" - it's taken a few readings not to be too stressed about that & to concentrate on what happens before the departure.
How convincing is Frodo's story about being to sell up? Well we learn in a soon to come chapter that it didn't for a moment convince his friends, who have been worried that he'll slip away from the Shire alone...
How convincing is it to the average gossip down at the Ivy Bush? I think the Bagginses are so established as weirdos that very many things about them could be believed: the gossip is probably all the more satisfying if it supports the idea that behaving unconventionaly leads to a sticky end. "It's all that dratted wizard's fault" , I imagine them saying.
Interesting thought that it might actually be pretty difficult for a young hobbit buck to run up big debts, with the usual temptation of goods, girls, gambling, and good-for-nothing friends not so in evidence in the Shire (well, not in Frodo's case).
As a reader I feel that selling Bag End is dramatically final: Frodo either doesn't expect to come back, or wants to remove the temptation to do so. The Sackville-Bagginses are (I think) his nearest kin, so maybe he is also magnanimously trying to settle that old family feud from his side. The relative s may be nasty, but they are family after all. Any financial losses might be moot from his point of view if the world is most likely going to end, anyway.
Also adding to the "poor Frodo" theory, maybe the process of selling up gives him an excuse to stay one last summer.
Moving onto Tolkien The Writer, I think I'm right in saying that, before the plot-theme of destroying the Ring came up, cash shortage was one idea he had to propel his hero out of his comfy hole. Maybe this is the fossil remains of that early idea?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 27 2014, 5:52pm
Post #56 of 109
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Where the neighbourhood thinks the Baggins fortune has gone...
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Where the neighbourhood thinks the Baggins fortune has gone...
"Frodo Entertains at Home (per William Holman Hunt)"
A larger image, and other photo-manpulations can be found at "Mechtilds": it seems that Frodo was a favourite subject for many a painter 
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 27 2014, 6:41pm
Post #57 of 109
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"Now far ahead the Road has gone, And I must follow, if I can..."
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Soon after, the three hobbits depart Hobbiton and begin their journey West [sic]. The first night goes by quite uneventfully, as Pippin convinces them to rest for the night.
1A. Any remarks on how the journey begins?
I love how there just happens to be a little-used country path, not even fit for carts, that goes exactly where the hobbits want to go – paralleling the famous East Road that Bilbo and the dwarves use. Thus, although Frodo is said to follow Bilbo in his manner of leaving Bag End:
[Frodo] waved his hand, and then turned and (following Bilbo, if he had known it) hurried after Peregrin down the garden-path. -- LotR I.3
the story immediately asserts its primary difference from its predecessor, which is that Frodo is on an anti-quest, to dispose of the Ring, whereas Bilbo was on a quest for treasure and adventure. Both head East, towards the Wild and the darkness, but Bilbo takes the classic Road with its Inns and passing folk, and Frodo scurries along a secret path, camping out and avoiding all possible encounters.
1B. Are there any literary comparisons to be made here?
Fielding has already been mentioned, whose work I’m not familiar with. Certainly whenever I read this chapter, I recall other instances I’ve come across of the English educated class’s delight in cross-country tramping in this era: for instance, Ransom’s hiking at the opening of C.S. Lewis’ Out of the Silent Planet (1938), or Warren’s aimless trek that starts the plot rolling in Nevil Shute’s Ruined City (1938). And I understand that Tolkien had the same taste, which comes through in much of The Hobbit and this book, both of which are essentially long ‘road trips’ on foot. His descriptions of the country and the circumstances of their camps must be based closely on personal experience.
2A. What are your thoughts on Sam’s “felt-bag” fashioned into a hat?
I appreciate the reference others have given to C.S. Lewis’ hat as the probable model. I am more puzzled by the remark that between his hat and overloaded backpack Sam sort of resembles a dwarf. (“In the gloom he looked very much like a dwarf.”) If I remember, Tolkien focused on the traditional Phrygian cap as being emblematic of his dwarves – The Hobbit makes much of the multi-colored assortment of caps on Bilbo’s hall pegs at the Unexpected Party, and Tolkien’s illustrations pick up on this, even if most later illustrators and costume designers do not:
‘Smaug in Flight and Dwarves Marching’, from J. R. R. Tolkien, Artist and Illustrator
I am wondering if Sam’s remarkable but somewhat absurd ‘resemblance’ to a dwarf is just another, not very successful and thus not continued, part of Tolkien’s linking of the starts of Frodo’s and Bilbo’s adventures?
2B. Is there any other reference to this elsewhere in the book?
Not that I know of. As I said, it may be an idea Tolkien tried and didn’t like.
3A. What are the class dynamics at work here between Frodo, Sam and Pippin?
It’s hard to say; at times Sam is Frodo’s servant and at other times he is just the youngest and most inexperienced of three traveling friends. When Pippin calls on Sam to get breakfast and a hot bath, he is clearly joking but Sam being half-awake is not entirely sure he is, and reacts with an automatic “Yes, sir, coming right up, sir.” It’s as if Pippin is teasing Sam for not knowing how to conduct himself when out of the familiar context of Bag End; the joke follows along from Frodo’s regret about the discomforts of camping and hiking. But a few minutes later we read that it’s Sam and Pippin, together, who “had got a good fire going” and it’s Pippin who is “busy setting out the food, and cups”. Clearly Sam is not actually expected to do all the cooking and catering by himself while the two others sit around in evening jackets.
Sam’s main role, in fact, seems to be not the working man but the inexperienced kid. There is a lot of emphasis, starting here and continuing at least to Bree, on Sam’s ignorance and fear of foreign lands and ways. We might ascribe that to his working-class origins – without the leisure time and wealth of his betters he’s never had the chance to go anywhere beyond Bywater, after all – but of course Tolkien mixes it up by making Sam the most romantic of all the four hobbits in his interest in old tales and poetry, thanks to Bilbo’s tutelage. Sam is, oddly enough, both educated and uneducated, knowing of but fearing the alien world of quests and Elves – a personage that’s very useful for Tolkien’s purposes in teasing out the relationships between fantasy and reality in Middle-earth. It’s quite out of keeping with the traditional ‘practical but uncultured’ English manservant character that Sam ought to be but isn’t.
Pippin, as he does in much of the later story, comes off as a bit more of a sarcastic twit. He is the heir to the Took family title – who are probably the richest family in the whole Shire – is more spoiled than Frodo, and also younger. He calls on Frodo to get the water with the same joking tone as he teased Sam with; he pokes sarcastic fun at Frodo’s figure and stamina; and he pooh-pooh’s Frodo’s poetry as “imitations” of Bilbo’s. Pippin, in the terms of this story, matches the stock English character of the callow and snobbish young nobleman, often a Duke (the highest-ranked title below royalty), who grows up during an adventure and becomes a truly noble man as befits the title he simply and unworthily bore at the beginning. Not that that caricature is really our Pippin the cheerful and chipper hobbit, of course – Tolkien’s not in this game for social satire, leaving that for Evelyn Waugh and a host of other authors of this period – but he’s as close to that character as Sam is to the faithful and humble servant.
3B. Do they appear any different from the beginning of the novel?
This is the beginning of the novel! We can already note that Sam in the pub acts like a romantic but mature young man among his own group, and acts a lot more ‘umble and deferential and slightly stupid in front of Frodo, Gandalf, and Pippin.
As always I’m not sure I like the term novel for The Lord of the Rings!
3C. Does Sam move upward, given his attachment to Frodo?
It’s his attachment to Frodo that slows his upward progress.
I must ask:
4A. Why the inclusion of the Fantastic Mr. Fox?
The fox is Radagast, that worthy wizard who is “a master of shapes and changes of hue”. I disagree with those who say he is one of Saruman’s spies (as Gandalf explained at the Council, “I became aware that spies of many sorts, even beasts and birds, were gathered round the Shire, and my fear grew.” – LotR II.2, bold by squire.)
4B. Does Tolkien seem adrift tonally at this point in the chapter?
The entire walk through the Woody End has a kind of nostalgic and dreamy quality that is the inverse of the nightmare feelings that the hobbits will experience in the Marish, the Old Forest, the Barrows, and (particularly Frodo) after Weathertop. The fox’s verbalization seems odd mostly because his intelligence is voiced in quoted dialogue. Had his thoughts (“hobbits are out of place here, even in the Shire”) been reported by the narrator, in keeping with the way all the other sentient beasts and plants are presented to us in the rest of the story, we would not notice it at all. So, as with Sam’s hat, I’d say Tolkien has his tone almost pitch-perfect, and this is just a wrong note.
4C. Do those with knowledge of HoME know of anything of note in this episode?
The appearance and speech of the fox shows up in the first typescript of the chapter. The earlier manuscripts end before this point. Christopher Tolkien makes no note of the fox at all, being far more interested in the changing character names, and the mystery of the following Rider (who at first turns out to be Gandalf, sniffing and all).
They wake up the next morning and leisurely make their way towards Woody End.
5. Despite the lack of ‘action’ here, are there any insights on character you would like to share?
See above.
6A. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s sudden outburst of Bilbo’s verse?
It’s one of Tolkien’s typically understated but brilliant devices that the poem echoes the one in The Hobbit – reinforcing the connection we’ve been noting in this whole chapter so far – but also varies from it, and that it will recur several times more at key points in the hobbits’ journeys until the very end of the book, each time with appropriate changes in the lyrics.
“Echoes” is the word for the relation of the LotR poem to the Hobbit poem, for they are really not very similar at all in structure, if not theme.
Here is the poem that Bilbo composes as he returns to Bag End at the end of The Hobbit:
Roads go ever ever on,
Over rock and under tree,
By caves where never sun has shone,
By streams that never find the sea;
Over snow by winter sown,
And through the merry flowers of June,
Over grass and over stone,
And under mountains in the moon.
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star,
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known. -- Hobbit 19
And in contrast, here is Frodo’s verse in this chapter:
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with weary feet,
Until it joins some larger way,
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say. -- LotR I.3
Bilbo’s verse recapitulates his entire quest from the point of view of its end. He followed the road to adventure after adventure. But “at last” he wearied of the road and refused to go where it would take him next (“under cloud and under star”), and turned back instead to return to the familiar landscape of his homeland. Frodo’s verse, naturally, speaks from his own point of view at the beginning of his undefined quest: interestingly, he personifies the road as something that goes ahead of the speaker, leading him from his doorstep to some unknown but distant destination. Frodo, in the poem, is not taking the road but following it, “pursuing” it even. Unconsciously, we have to assume, he predicts that it will draw him to places (Bree, then Rivendell) where his path and that of others will cross – foreseeing both his rendezvous with Aragorn (and the quest of Gondor’s crown) and his arrival just in time for the Council of Elrond (and the crux of the Third Age and end of Elvendom in Middle-earth). As Gandalf has tried to reassure him, it’s not yet clear where he may go after Rivendell!
6B. Was he unconsciously prompted by Pippin’s remark that “the Road goes on for ever”?
Yes, that seems clear.
Frodo is then reminded of Bilbo: “He used often to say there was only one Road; that it was like a great river: its springs were at every doorstep, and every path was its tributary.”
7A. What might JRRT be saying here, either of ‘Story’ (as a.s. mentioned last week), or about adventures/life experiences in general?
I note that Bilbo’s metaphor, wherein the Road is like a river that sweeps one off ones feet and on to adventures in Mirkwood and Erebor, is quite different from the image in Frodo’s song! Frodo imagines the Road going on with the expectation that he will follow. He is induced or compelled to run after it, wearily trying to catch up with it rather than effortlessly riding along Bilbo’s fanciful stream.
Once again, the author is letting his readers know (not that too many will be reading this with the attention we are giving it today) that this is not The Hobbit. Bilbo the repressed but incurably romantic poet and traveler is not Frodo the wiser, sadder, and far more wary Ringbearer. One can draw all kinds of metaphors from these two different outlooks on upcoming adventures. I like the idea that Bilbo in The Hobbit is England and/or Tolkien before World War I; Frodo in The Lord of the Rings is England and/or Tolkien looking forward to World War II.
7B. Other interpretations you found while reading this?
See above.
8. What might be gleaned from this scene, and how Frodo seems to channel Bilbo—whether by direct quote or paraphrase—on multiple occasions?
See above.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 27 2014, 8:11pm
Post #58 of 109
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what do you prefer to "novel"?
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I'm not sure I like the term novel for The Lord of the Rings!
Or are you possibly leaning toward "trilogy"? I always read my old three volume edition and that's how it will always be, for me.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 27 2014, 8:38pm
Post #59 of 109
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There was something suspicious
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about those "parties" he gave in Bilbo's honor. Just what was the madcap heir up to at Bag End into the wee hours of the night with the "strange folk" he was known to talk with? Enquiring Bywater minds know how fools can squander the family fortune on frivolity.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Dec 27 2014, 8:43pm
Post #60 of 109
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I like your point about the finality of selling Bag End: it does tend to smack one in the face, knowing how much both Bilbo and Frodo loved it.
I wonder if Frodo thought it was better to sell it and get some money from it rather than disappear for a year as Bilbo did and be declared legally dead so it could be auctioned off? Better to get something than nothing. He might have counted on his Brandybuck relatives to hold onto Crickhollow for him and not circle like vultures as the SBs would.
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squire
Half-elven
Dec 27 2014, 8:55pm
Post #61 of 109
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Story, tale, or romance, perhaps...
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In the structural sense that cats16 was using the word, referring to "the beginning of the novel", I would prefer terms like "story" or even "tale". But if we were talking about the actual literary form of the published book, I'd go with "romance" rather than "novel".
Reason being, I think Tolkien himself didn't think of LotR as a novel; the term seemed to be too tied up with modern (post-18th century) forms of fiction that he was deliberately trying to ignore when he was writing, as he put it, the kind of thing he liked to read ("As a guide I had only my own feelings for what is appealing or moving." - JRRT, LotR Foreword, 2nd ed.)
Now, for all of his vast background in medieval forms and styles, Tolkien was actually unable to write the book without using as well many of the tropes of contemporary adventure fiction (which he liked, as opposed to character-driven slice-of-life stories). There's a very great deal of the LotR that is indistinguishable in style from other middlebrow British fiction of its time. And in our Rosebury discussion last year, we followed the critic in his intensive dissection of just why and why not LotR might be considered a modern novel. Rosebury drew on example after example of other books that don't adhere to the famous 19th-century models that "novelists" have seemed to adhere to ever since; his point was that "novel" is not as well-defined a term as we, or Tolkien, or his early critics, might have supposed.
But with all due respect to Brian Rosebury I kind of go with Tolkien in the end. When we say "novel", I think we still imagine a subset of literature that is quite antithetical to LotR in spirit, construction, and focus.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
(This post was edited by squire on Dec 27 2014, 9:05pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 27 2014, 9:09pm
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Well maybe, but I was thinking...
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... That Frodo had reached a point where in a way the date of a bit of real estate no longer Matters. If Frodo's quest fails, the orcs will burn it all anyway: why not let Lobelia enjoy it first? And I wonder whether Frodo is not already half expecting that even success would cost his life. Later, in Mordor, he's telling Sam not to worry about rations for the return journey: perhaps he already feels he can be similarly disinterested in what happens to Bag End.
I've not myself been subjected to an apparent death sentence (call-up to a lethal War, or a diagnosis perhaps) but I understand that some people in that bind become very concerned about things such as the deposition of their goods, and others let go. Maybe Frodo's doing the latter?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 28 2014, 4:02pm
Post #63 of 109
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Rather late - but last week I was mostly taken by the kids' school vacation. So here goes:
There are no archived records of the 2000 discussion that I know of. But in September 2002, Blue Wizard led the discussion, as ceremony (who seems not have participated much in the discussions) was ill. Despite the short noticed, Blue produced thirteen discussion threads (an additional one was posted by NZ Strider), and a summing up one.
In February-March 2005, the discussion was led by jflower, with another short discussion by Beren IV, and in November 2007 by humbert. And here is Curious' thread for June 2010 (wow, it's been a long time!).
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 28 2014, 6:19pm
Post #64 of 109
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Thanks for those. Sort of weird though..
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...to read one's old posts. Often I can remember the conversations like they happened yesterday, and yet some of them I don't recall at all. Sometimes the writer seems like a character in a book I read long ago.
And sometimes I make good arguments. And sometimes I cringe.
Lol.
I missed most of the 2010 discussion so need to dip into those when I get a chance.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 4:27am
Post #67 of 109
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First of all, thank you for introducing me to Barbellion! I now have another addition to my reading to-do list.
1. Do you feel that Frodo would have been better off leaving now, rather than waiting until Autumn?
Generally speaking, it should be cooler, less humid, fewer insects, more room and food (not to mention cheaper prices) at inns, and less congested roads (which means less torn up roads and also that anyone following should be a lot easier to spot). You know, I never really thought of it in such a way. Interesting!
Is this a mistake on his part? Of course some of us are given a lot more time than others, so it’s all relative. As Treebeard says “Do not be hasty, that is my motto.” Love this observation on time. And I think this puts Sauron's drawn out assault on the West in perspective for me, as well. What to myself feels like watching glaciation might appear as an avalanche to another being, and vice versa.
What do you make of Frodo’s reluctance to leave?
You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood ... back home to a young man's dreams of glory and of fame ... back home to places in the country, back home to the old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting but which are changing all the time – back home to the escapes of Time and Memory."
-Thomas Wolfe
Frodo suspects this. I agree wholeheartedly.
6. What are your thoughts of this plan?
Very puzzling given that Rivendell is a valley that cannot be found except by those who already know where it is, and Frodo don’t. Think maybe Gandalf will give him a compass what doesn't point north? Interesting point. On a similar note, I've still never figured out exactly how Boromir made it to Rivendell in the first place.
Thanks so much for your (as always) deeply interesting thoughts, Darkstone!
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
(This post was edited by cats16 on Dec 29 2014, 4:37am)
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 4:36am
Post #68 of 109
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I must ask: 4. Why the inclusion of the Fantastic Mr. Fox?
Stephen Chow is a Hong Kong star actor, writer, director, producer who became internationally famous with his blockbuster film Shaolin Soccer (2001). With people anticipating, expecting, even demanding more of the same, his next picture, Kung Fu Hustle (2004), began with the lead character again doing fantastic kung fu moves with a soccer ball, only to suddenly stomp the ball flat and exclaim “No more soccer!”
Similarly, this is Tolkien shouting emphatically “No more anthropomorphic animals!”
Such a perfect answer, Darkstone. From now on if any of my friends read LOTR and ask me about the fox, this shall be my response. Perfect.
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 4:49am
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6. What are your thoughts of this plan? What do you make of Gandalf’s vague responses throughout this exchange? 7. Was it unnecessary for Gandalf to refer to the Cracks of Doom? Why do you think he did? Gandalf has learned Elf-ways, and seems not anxious to advise Frodo too closely. I think it reflects JRRT's own view on wisdom, which should not be dominating, and also maybe on Gandalf's fear of owning the fate of the Ring too closely - having the wisdom himself to fear that desire. I agree on Gandalf's fear. I think the line advising him to go N/S/E/W is a big indicator here; he wants to provide Frodo with as much support as he can offer him, but does not desire to influence the Ring-bearer in any concrete way. And of course at the Council, I think Gandalf pulls up his britches, and realizes he *has* to do more. Indeed the Council's conclusion, besides agreeing on what to do with the Ring, is that the West should--and will not--fall due to inaction. Perhaps I'll hold the rest of my thoughts on this until we progress in the story. 
11. What news could he have learned? How do you think he got the message? 12. Why did Gandalf not urge Frodo to leave for Buckland, given that he was “very anxious” before he left? I feel like here is a buried hint of Radagast, and the many creatures that Gandalf seems to befriend. I think based on even the latest news and the need to consult Saruman (which we find at the Council) he wished to retain the appearance of normalcy, and prevent Frodo's departure from being remarked upon. Agreed on all points here, Brethil.
17. What are your thoughts on Frodo’s personal journey thus far, as he waves good-bye to Hobbiton? Its sad, and poignant...yet in Hobbity-fashion its a bit comical, as the rest of the Hobbits are listening in and perfectly aware that Frodo's subtle goodbyes are exactly that.
Yes, I also felt a strange lightheartedness to it at the same time. I didn't think of it as comical until you wrote it, but I understand what you mean here. I think to me, it's the 'walking holiday' feel of the story at this point--before we hear any footsteps behind them--that JRRT is reluctant to leave, but ultimately the Wide World (as you said earlier) inevitably creeps in.
Thanks for your thoughts, Brethil! 
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 4:51am
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And very topical, given today's date. I know personally I've got several things that, while not on a destroy-the-Ring scale, likely come from a similar mindset.
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 4:59am
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And apologies if I'm repeating something already said. My head is spinning tonight. 
Another benefit of the journey happening in winter would be travel by night: the long hours of night provide cover for moving secretly, both for Frodo pre- and post-Rivendell with the Fellowship. This stood out to me recently, reading later chapters as the Fellowship enters Hollin. It's not something I've consciously thought of while reading (though I will now), but maybe it's worthy of consideration.
Not that I believe Gandalf or anyone else had this in mind while Frodo was still in the Shire. Or, maybe he did and didn't care to tell us. He is a wizard, you know. 
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cats16
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 5:33am
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I must admit that I did not give any prior thought when calling it a novel, although I agree with your thoughts.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 9:03am
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Certainly possible- at that point, they don't know that they are to be pursued by Black Riders, who are most effective at night //
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 9:15am
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I hope my experiment with this week's chapter didn't negatively affect discussion. There are so many factors, like holidays, and some cooling down after the excitement of beginning (A Long-expected Party will always garner many responses); also, quite often many of the huge subthreads have little connection to the OP, or none.
There is no need to stick to any fixed format, and anyway (as Elizabeth told when I first led a chapter discussion), leading a RR discussion is like herding cats (hey, that's a pun! I've noticed it only after typing) - there's a limit to how much credit for success or responsibility for lack thereof you can take for yourself.
So far, you've been doing an excellent job: you're giving good leads, and the discussion is livley and well-attended.
I suppose I had assumed that he was one of "the four hobbits" being mentioned in that passage. As you say, he was very likely *there* anyway.
Well, I wouldn't have assumed so - but then I didn't remember the number four being mentioned so explicitly. Maybe I did notice it at some pooint, but have forgotten by now...
Also, that might be differences between book-firsters and movie-firsters. I've read LotR several times before watching Jackson's films, and had I been asked if Sam was a part of the small party, I would probably reply that yes, but in a serving position - this is a very natural assumption to make. But to a movie-firster this must seem a glaring omission.
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sador
Half-elven
Dec 29 2014, 9:19am
Post #75 of 109
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I get the same spectrum of feelings, too.
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Althogh I've joined a considerable time after you - only after the move to the new boards.
And re-reading those old debates between FarFromHome and Curious makes me sorry they aren't around any more. I'm sentimental in a way - and I miss them (like I've missed you during your hiatus).
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