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irasel
The Shire
Dec 25 2014, 1:43pm
Post #1 of 30
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According to PJ, "There is a reason for the raised hand of Saruman"
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I have read this at the Wikipedia entry for Galadriel, regarding his duel with Sauron in BOTFA:
Galadriel assumes a corrupted and terrifying image of herself to face Sauron - similar to the one when she was offered the One Ring by Frodo in The Fellowship of the Ring. Locked in a duel of minds and words, Sauron tempts Galadriel and tries to sway her to his side, but she tells him he is nameless and shapeless, and has no place in this world. In a recent interview, Jackson has stated that there is a reason for the raised hand of Saruman, and giving a connection between this movie and The Two Towers. Though Galadriel overpowers Sauron, Saruman is controlling her with the raised hand and she is unable to destroy Sauron as he escapes towards Mordor. As she is weakened by this encounter, Elrond takes her back to Lothlórien.
Do you know anything about that 'recent interview' without link to the source? I know Wikipedia is not always reliable... Anyway, what do you think of that interpretation?
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 25 2014, 1:53pm
Post #2 of 30
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I think a source would be useful!
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I did observe Saruman's raised hand on my viewing and certainly interpreted it as him exerting his power. I think it was a subtle enough signal that he was part of the effort of wills against Sauron - the idea that he was in fact restraining Galadriel would seem to pass subtlety into the domain of being almost unobservable.
Similarly I can't think of the Two Towers reference. In fact I thought the gesture Saruman held was instantly reminiscent of a gesture he uses in his battle with Gandalf in FOTR.
I've not come across any such recent interview and would tend to be a healthy sceptic until it turns up!
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Name
Rohan
Dec 25 2014, 1:56pm
Post #3 of 30
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This makes no sense to me at all. I don't see why anyone would interpret that scene that way. 
How many Tolkien fans does it take to change a light bulb?
"Change? Oh my god, what do you mean change?! Never, never, never......"
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Simon
Rivendell
Dec 25 2014, 2:04pm
Post #4 of 30
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I thought there was a connection but my reflexion did not go that far! Galadriel say the same thing that Saruman say by the body of Theoden in Two Towers "You have no power here" or something like that. So Saruman must in a way control Galadriel in his fight with Sauron. Its a mind game between Saruman and Sauron. And his hand must be raised and represent his White Hand in the Two Towers. Gandalf must raised is hand to give Theoden is freedom of the mind because he is now Gandalf the White.
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Nerven
Rivendell
Dec 25 2014, 2:49pm
Post #5 of 30
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I don´t get it, was Saruman doing good by holding his hand or was he already working against the council, without them noticing?
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 3:03pm
Post #6 of 30
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I find it hard to believe that Saruman could already be plotting against the White Council
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He seems genuinely shocked at Sauron's appearance - could he really have contrived such a plan in mere moments?
(This post was edited by BlackFox on Dec 25 2014, 3:08pm)
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NoelGallagher
Rohan
Dec 25 2014, 3:14pm
Post #7 of 30
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He realizes how powerful and mighty Sauron really
is and what use he could have of that. At least that is what his face expression is telling me during "leave Sauron to me".
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 3:21pm
Post #8 of 30
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But to have him hinder Galadriel just a few moments after he learns of Sauron's return...
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... is a whole another matter, imo.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 3:28pm
Post #10 of 30
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I really need to see the film again and observe the whole Dol Guldur sequence with special attention.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Dec 25 2014, 3:41pm
Post #11 of 30
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I loved the line "Leave Sauron to me" because of its different possible interpretations
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Audience members who have never seen FOTR or read the books are going to take it at face value and interpret it as Saruman intending to take down Sauron, but people who know the later story are going to think about that line and say, "Hmmmm - what exactly is he up to?" Does he really think, in his arrogance, that he can beat Sauron? Does he assume that Sauron will be looking for the ring and is he planning to spy on Sauron and get the ring first? Or maybe, in the back of his mind, is already the first beginnings of the thought that he can do a deal with Sauron?
The ambiguity is so great, I think it was a brilliant bit of dialogue writing.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 4:13pm
Post #12 of 30
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But I really hope this Saruman-trying-to-lessen-Galadriel's-power theory turns out to be false.
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DigificWriter
Lorien
Dec 25 2014, 4:28pm
Post #13 of 30
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Why is this idea so implausible to some people?
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Why is this idea so implausible to people? Given what we know about his character, It strikes me as more than plausible that he could have made a last-minute decision to prevent Sauron from being destroyed entirely for any number of reasons and indeed been subtly hindering any attempt to do so.
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Snowghost77
Lorien
Dec 25 2014, 5:34pm
Post #14 of 30
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Who cares how they intended it to be or not to be...just interpret it however you feel best suites you.
The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget youhttps://m.facebook.com/frontlinewatchint/photos/pb.278061909050787.-2207520000.1414686076./286850571505254/?type=1&source=54&ref=bookmark
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 5:44pm
Post #15 of 30
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It is not Saruman's character that is the source of my skepticism
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I agree, it certainly wouldn't be out-of-character for him to do something like that. My quibble lies with the timing. And even if we leave that aside, do we actually have any evidence (a queer, ambiguous look from him, for example) for this to be true? Or am I forgetting something?
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Eruvandi
Tol Eressea
Dec 25 2014, 5:46pm
Post #16 of 30
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What if he hadn't just learned it?
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I agree, if he had just learned about Sauron's return, that might be a bit of a stretch for Saruman to hinder Galadriel, but what if he had already realized it?
IIRC, from my readings, in bookverse anywya, it sounded like Saruman started becoming envious of Sauron's power quite early on and then started looking for the One Ring in secret. IMO, it could be possible that when Gandalf told the White Council in AUJ about the Necromance, Saruman just pretended that he didn't think it was a big deal when in reality, he at least strongly suspected, if he didn't already know that it was Sauron returning. Then he would have had time to plan and plot what he would do, and that may have included hindering the other Council members from destroying Sauron outright.
Just a theory of course. It'll be interesting to see if anyone can find a source for that quote.
"I heard the bells on Christmas Day
Their old familiar carols play
And mild and sweet their songs repeat
Of peace on earth, good will to men.
But in despair I bowed my head
There is no peace on earth, I said
For hate is strong and mocks the song
Of peace on earth, good will to men.
Then rang the bells more loud and deep,
God is not dead, nor doth He sleep
The wrong shall fail, the right prevail
With peace on earth, good will to men."
~Casting Crowns "I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day"
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 5:54pm
Post #17 of 30
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I was just surprised to read about such a possibility
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As I can't think of any evidence in the primary source (the film itself) that would support this theory.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 25 2014, 6:02pm
Post #18 of 30
(1557 views)
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But his immediate reaction upon Sauron's appearance (and lack of further evidence) still leaves me skeptical.
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Snowghost77
Lorien
Dec 25 2014, 6:56pm
Post #19 of 30
(1518 views)
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Completely out of nowhere...doesn't make much sense to me either.
The path of the Warrior is paved in blood, sweat, tears and ultimately death. He weeps for the fallen, bleeds for the cause, and sweats till he dies.
In memory of operation FALLEN ANGEL and the mighty Heroes of SEAL team 6, the PJ's, SOCOM aviation, and all those who fell in the Tangi Valley.
- Task force Warrior will not forget youhttps://m.facebook.com/frontlinewatchint/photos/pb.278061909050787.-2207520000.1414686076./286850571505254/?type=1&source=54&ref=bookmark
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erdildeniz
Rivendell
Dec 25 2014, 7:27pm
Post #20 of 30
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Actually it is impossible because..
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Sauron can never be destroyed unless the ring of power is destroyed. So Galadriel or anyone else could only outcast him there, not destroy. And also Saruman raises his hand towards Sauron BEFORE Galadriel stands up and take the fight. So at this point, Saruman was just making a self-defense against Sauron. But i do believe Saruman was helping Galadriel. And the shock of him when seeing Sauron also prove this.
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Osskil
Bree
Dec 25 2014, 8:26pm
Post #21 of 30
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... Saruman raises his hand before Galadriel even confronts Sauron, and keeps it in exactly the same pose during her confrontation. As a result, this theory doesn't make sense to me. I'd need to see a source. Even were it true and this were Jackson's intent, the editing of the sequence would seem very much to negate the intent in its current editing.
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Ceres_the_Dwarf_(planet)
The Shire
Dec 25 2014, 8:37pm
Post #22 of 30
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Alas, I have read this post...
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...and cannot unread it. I hope never to see the purported interview confirmed, because-like Elarie- I love the ambiguity of the scene as it played out; ambiguity (and maturity) from director not known for it. Even if the interview isn't confirmed, Jackson may well say in the eventual director's commentary, 'yeah, what Saruman is doing here is assisting Sauron, not Galadriel..."
Don't want to hear that, Pete. Leave some things for the viewer to wonder about - its more fun that way!
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Curunir The White
The Shire
Dec 25 2014, 10:14pm
Post #23 of 30
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I don't know, it certainly does seem like something that Saruman would attempt. I do genuinely believe there is a reason for Saruman raising his hand - I mean I could not believe Saruman cowering infront of Sauron while the White Council is there, it doesn't seem him to me. (Especially since his next line is "Leave Sauron to me" - would it make sense? One minute he's cowering, next minute he's ready to take Sauron on by himself??)
Perhaps he is helping Galadriel? If it is drawing a connection to the Two Towers and controlling her, would that suggest that he's possessing her? Like he did with Theoden? I'm not sure, but I think from this that if Saruman is controlling her, he is pushing her to do this, not so much as controlling her.
Regardless, I would hope the EE elaborates on this a bit more if this is indeed true - especially on Saruman.
--Edit--
In the final film, Jackson has stated that while in the book, Saruman does drive out Sauron from Dol Guldur, he does it within the movie more 'secretive' and giving a connection between The Two Towers, in that Saruman raises his hand and controls Galadriel with dark magic. He says that he alone will "deal" with Sauron after the battle.
I don't know, I'm afraid to edit it out in case it is true, I would be worse doing that if there is actually a source.
Those who listened unwarily to that voice could seldom report the words that they heard; and if they did, they wondered, for little power remained in them. Mostly they remembered only that it was a delight to hear the voice speaking, all that it said seemed wise and reasonable, and desire awoke in them by swift agreement to seem wise themselves. When others spoke they seemed harsh and uncouth by contrast; and if they gainsaid the voice, anger was kindled in the hearts of those under the spell. For some the spell lasted only while the voice spoke to them, and when it spoke to another they smiled, as men do who see through a juggler's trick while others gape at it. For many the sound of the voice alone was enough to hold them enthralled; but for those whom it conquered the spell endured when they were far away, and ever they heard that soft voice whispering and urging them. But none were unmoved; none rejected its pleas and its commands without an effort of mind and will, so long as its master had control of it.
(This post was edited by Curunir The White on Dec 25 2014, 10:21pm)
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Nerven
Rivendell
Dec 25 2014, 10:59pm
Post #24 of 30
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That already seems evil, controlling another person with dark magic. Why doesn´t he finish Sauron himself and lets Galadriel do the dirty work instead? Galadriel would be upset that he is so outrageous posessing/controlling her, I don´t think good guys are supposed to act that way, even Galadriel reading the minds in FOTR is sketchy and if PJ intended Saruman to act like that it´s even worse, than just reading a bit of ones mind.
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irasel
The Shire
Dec 25 2014, 11:06pm
Post #25 of 30
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I agree with you, it makes no sense to me.
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Basically because Sauron cannot be destroyed unless the One Ring is destroyed... and Saruman must know it. I think he is rising his hand just to defend himself. I'm not sure he helps Galadriel though, he looks too astonished to me.
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