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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 10:14pm
Post #1 of 26
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A Very Crystemas MEVC!
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Grab some mincemeat tarts and cocoa and settle in for the Holiday 2014 edition of A Middle English Vocabulary Challenge!
Much of JRR Tolkien's labours in Middle English were made around his 1921 glossary A Middle English Vocabulary; and his 1925 translation of the Medieval poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, a tale spanning two Christmas Seasons (tie-in alert).
Our game is based on a list of ten words drawn from both.
The Rules
This is a game of guessing, reasoned or otherwise. In the spirit of re-gifting this year’s list includes a few words from past installments, so some may rely on their memory as well. As always, no answers in subject lines please.
The Challenge
For each of the following words, please state its definition and/or an equivalent contemporary word:
1. ientyle
2. þiderwarde
3. childgered
4. newȝere
5. staue
6. twelmonyth
7. nauȝty
8. þryys
9. snewe
10. louelych
Hints
Against the list being unduly difficult: thorn þ is often read as “th” and yogh ȝ as “gh” (but sometimes as “y” as in “yes”, and as “g” as in “gift”); sometimes (u) is used in place of (v) and that in place of (f)… aaand vice versa; finally, watch those (i)s, (j)s, (g)s and (y)s!
List words taken from:
A Middle English Vocabulary, by J.R.R. Tolkien, as published in Sisam, Kenneth, ed. Fourteenth Century Verse & Prose, London: Oxford University Press, 1955; and/or
Tolkien & Gordon ed. Sir Gawain & The Green Knight, London: Oxford University Press, 1963.
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Dec 22 2014, 10:41pm)
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 10:57pm
Post #2 of 26
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Seriously, I suck at this.
1. ientyle
2. þiderwarde
3. childgered
4. newȝere - New Year
5. staue
6. twelmonyth - twelvemonth = a year
7. nauȝty - naughty? 
8. þryys
9. snewe - snow
10. louelych - lovely
The best I could do. 
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 22 2014, 11:40pm
Post #3 of 26
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I am sorely tempted by the copy of the ME dictionary I own but have never actually read.  However I promise not to cheat. Not sure where the darn thing is, at this moment, anyway. NOT THAT I WOULD CHEAT ANYHOW!
1. = gentyle = gentle as in gentleman. Gentile. A noble. As in gentile knights.
2. = something ending in ward. A direction word like "forward" or "backward?" Total guess there.
3. = something about a child or pertaining to a child.
4. = must be New Year or new year writ small
5. = stave? guess. Not sure if that would be a noun or a verb
6. = twelve month = year
7. = naughty? that seems too easy. Maybe something to do with "naught" or a negative of something?
8. = I KNOW THIS ONE, or I'm about to embarrass myself, LOL: I think this is the word "thrice".
9. = snow?
10. = hmmm. I will guess this might be lowly
Haven't seen these MEVCs before, are they are recurring feature? fun.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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Brethil
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 11:45pm
Post #4 of 26
(2846 views)
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With a tall cocoa at hand, I shall have a stab at it...
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A very amateurish one, just to be clear! 
1. ientyle : gentle
2. þiderwarde: by-the-way (?) by-that-way (?)
3. childgered: childish
4. newȝere : New Year
5. staue : Star (?)
6. twelmonyth : twelve-month ie: calendar year
7. nauȝty : naughty
8. þryys : prays/of prayer (?)
9. snewe : snow
10. louelych : with love (?)
Some I feel better about than others! Thank you for the fun - can't wait to see the answers.
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Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea
Dec 23 2014, 4:12am
Post #6 of 26
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Lots of guessing here, and some I couldn't guess.
1. ientyle = gentle?
2. þiderwarde
3. childgered = children?
4. newȝere = new year?
5. staue = stave or staff?
6. twelmonyth = twelve month period = year?
7. nauȝty = is it too much to hope that this means naughty?
8. þryys
9. snewe = snow?
10. louelych = lovely?
Where's Frodo?
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 23 2014, 12:21pm
Post #7 of 26
(2813 views)
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"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 23 2014, 4:09pm
Post #8 of 26
(2837 views)
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I'd like to see more movement on number 7 -- what could it have meant c1300?
Thank you to all our players so far! You've all done very well 
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acheron
Gondor
Dec 23 2014, 6:00pm
Post #9 of 26
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1) "gentle", I seem to remember that one from another post. That said, in middle English, would that have a meaning closer to "noble"? (cf."gentleman")
2) I would guess the second part is "-ward" as in a direction (northward, etc). "thider" though? I got nothing.
3) Did we cover this one another time too? I think it's just "childlike" or "childish", though I don't remember the etymology of "gered".
4) "new year" seems too easy though I'm pretty sure "yere" is a possible middle English spelling of year, so I'll go with it.
5) "staff"? (cf. "staves")
6) "twelfth month" seems too easy again but I've got nothing else.
7) Obviously "naughty", though given your follow-up post... is there a relation to "naught" as in "nothing"?
8) It sounds like "thrice"/"three times". Don't remember the double-y before. Wonder why that didn't catch on like the double-u did...
9) Given the theme I will go with "snow".
10) "lovely" maybe?
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
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acheron
Gondor
Dec 23 2014, 6:09pm
Post #10 of 26
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now that I read everyone else's answers...
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I bet "[group of] twelve-month(s)" as in a year is a better answer than "twelfth month".
Also I had a thought with "thider" -- is it "thither" as in "hither and thither"? I was pronouncing it in my head with the /aɪ/ sound ("eye") but suddenly thought to try it as /ɪ/ and realized it could be "thither", which could apply to a direction. thither is "away" right? So away-ward?
For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much -- the wheel, New York, wars, and so on -- while all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man, for precisely the same reasons. -- Douglas Adams
(This post was edited by acheron on Dec 23 2014, 6:09pm)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 23 2014, 6:29pm
Post #11 of 26
(2826 views)
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Great reasoning here, and in your other post -- on a whistle-stop while travelling so this will have to do for now.
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 23 2014, 6:34pm
Post #12 of 26
(2819 views)
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oh! great reasoning out on #2! //
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"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Dec 23 2014, 9:08pm
Post #13 of 26
(2825 views)
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Recalling Middle-English Lit. class...
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1. ientyle -- Gentile/Gentiles, as in "Jonah was a Gentile prophet"
2. þiderwarde -- In a certain direction, thitherward
3. childgered -- Childish
4. newȝere -- New Year
5. staue -- stave, a staff
6. twelmonyth -- a year
7. nauȝty --Worthless, worth "nought"
8. þryys -- Three times, thrice
9. snewe -- To snow, swarm
10. louelych -- Lovely
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Gianna
Rohan
Dec 24 2014, 2:47am
Post #14 of 26
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1. gentle
2. ?
3. ?
4. new year
5. staff
6. year
7. naughty (though this seems really too simple...)
8. thrice
9. snow
10. love----
~There's some good left in this world. And it's worth fighting for.~
(This post was edited by Gianna on Dec 24 2014, 2:48am)
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 24 2014, 3:43am
Post #15 of 26
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Maybe the word is "naughty" but doesn't have the same meaning it does now, is that what you mean? I still am guessing it has something to do with nothing (hah, little joke there) i.e. "naught". So....maybe "to have nothing" or "poverty" or "poor"? Or even "humble"?
a.s
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 24 2014, 4:20am
Post #16 of 26
(2798 views)
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Given its original meaning, the implications about how it came to its current use are staggering.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 24 2014, 4:43am
Post #17 of 26
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And very seasonal! My guesses:
1. ientyle - gentile, or non-Jew
2. þiderwarde - thitherward, as in going hence
3. childgered - with child, or pregnant
4. newȝere - new year
5. staue - stave, as in staff
6. twelmonyth - a twelve-month, or year
7. nauȝty - naughty
8. þryys - thrice
9. snewe - snow
10. louelych - lovely or lowly, can I get a 1/2 right?
Thanks for doing these, SirD!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 6:23pm
Post #18 of 26
(2800 views)
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~~ Answers and further discussion ~~
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Alrighty, with the unwrapping behind us it’s time to wrap things up!
For each word I've included Tolkien's gloss (or a variation where appropriate), and the glossary it appears in: (SG) for Sir Gawain, (ME) for A Middle English Vocabulary, or (Both) if it appears in both.
Since our list doesn't provide context, apart from being part of a list – the medium is the message after all – and since a gloss is not (strictly speaking) a definition, a full point is awarded for grasping a word's essence.
Answars:*
ientyle adj. of gentle birth, noble; kindly; noble, excellent [OFr. gentil.] (Both)
Þiderwarde adv. in that direction [OE. Þiderweard.] (SG)
Childgered adj. boyish, merry [OE. cíld. + GERE, manners.] (SG)
newȝere, nw(e) ȝer(e) n. New Year’s tide, New Year’s day [OE. nēowe. + ȜERE, year; cf. ON. nýjár.] (SG)
staue n. staff, stick, dat. club [OE. stæf.] (Both)
twelmonyth n. twelvemonth, year; as adv. a year hence, a year ago [OE. twelf mōnaÞ.] (Both)
nauȝty adj. (worth nought), penniless [Cf. OE. nāht-lic.] (ME)
þryys adv. thrice [OE. þri(g)a. + adv. -es] (ME)
snewe v. to snow [OE. snīwan, snēowan.] (ME)
louelych adj. pleasing, gracious, fair [OE. luflic.] (SG)
*n. answer [OE. an(d)swaru.] (ME)
Scores (out of 10):
a.s. – 7
acheron – 8.5
BlackFox – 4.5
Brethil – 6
dernwyn – 8.5
Finding Frodo – 7
Giana – 7
Morthoron – 9.5
Thank you to all our players! Many half points were awarded.
Sooo, any surprises? Any ahas? What did you think of nauȝty in light of current usage? Incidentally, the noun “snow” is “snaw(e)” in both glossaries, but everyone who answered “snow” got a full point.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 8:33pm
Post #19 of 26
(2778 views)
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But still better than I thought I would.
Thanks for the fun game!
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a.s.
Valinor
Dec 26 2014, 8:56pm
Post #20 of 26
(2780 views)
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so....I went to nursing school, ya know
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And don't know Old or Middle English from, well, Greek. It's all Greek to me.
Do "staff" and "stave" have the same word origin? I mean a stave as in a wooden stick or pole?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Through any dark time, I always remember Frodo's claim on the side of Mt. Doom that he "can manage it" because he must.
Sometimes, I have to manage it, too, as do we all. We manage because we must.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 10:52pm
Post #21 of 26
(2783 views)
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since u often equals v (and vice versa) in ME, staue is the same word as stave. (I'm not an English major either.)
V=f is a vestige of English's Germanic roots, I think, so OE staef would equal ME stave... I'm not sure if the shift to v=u was driven more by scribes and type-setters or if it was due to the increasing French influence during the Middle Ages.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 10:54pm
Post #22 of 26
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I'm very pleased that you played. Thank you BlackFox!
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 26 2014, 11:25pm
Post #23 of 26
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I just can't keep my paws off a good game. Even if I know I don't have much chance in succeeding.
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Morthoron
Gondor
Dec 27 2014, 2:26am
Post #24 of 26
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ientyle adj. of gentle birth, noble; kindly; noble, excellent [OFr. gentil.] (Both)
"Ionas ioyned watȝ þer-inne ientyle prophete." -- Jonah was a prophet of the Gentiles. From the poem Patience by the Pearl poet. Although it has been used to mean "gentle" in other poems.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on Dec 27 2014, 2:27am)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Dec 27 2014, 4:16am
Post #25 of 26
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I like the Tolkien connection, i.e. his work with "The Pearl Manuscript." And perhaps he might have glossed ientyle as "Gentile" if Patience had appeared in Sisam along with the other "Pearl" poems featured.
On the other hand, I'm not completely satisfied with the rendering of the line you provided. For instance, Jonah was a Hebrew prophet, though he was a prophet to the Gentiles of Nineveh. As Jonah didn't want to warn the Ninevites of their doom, but did it anyway, it could be said that he was a "noble prophet." Therefore it's not clear the poet wasn't just playing with words. (Which also puts me in mind of JRRT.)
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Dec 27 2014, 4:17am)
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