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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
What is the real reason of showing Galadriel so powerful?
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erdildeniz
Rivendell


Dec 22 2014, 11:06am

Post #1 of 31 (1154 views)
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What is the real reason of showing Galadriel so powerful? Can't Post

Appearantly she shouldn't have been. Just because Philippa Boyens stated this? A very big feminist movement, i believe. It should be Saruman who banish Sauron from Dol Guldur. Big disappointment.


(This post was edited by erdildeniz on Dec 22 2014, 11:07am)


Glorfindela
Valinor


Dec 22 2014, 11:07am

Post #2 of 31 (736 views)
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Must say [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't have a problem with this.


irasel
The Shire


Dec 22 2014, 11:53am

Post #3 of 31 (669 views)
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This way Saruman has a more ambiguous role. [In reply to] Can't Post

They probably thought Saruman character worked better this way. And we know Galadriel is really mighty, one of the greatest among the Noldor according to Tolkien. And the Noldor achieved incredible feats... Think of Fingolfin dueling Morgoth and injuring him.


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


Dec 22 2014, 11:53am

Post #4 of 31 (667 views)
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I always thought that the Istari aren't allowed to challenge Sauron with pure power... [In reply to] Can't Post

And they don't. Even Gandalfs fight vs. Sauron in DOS was... well acceptable since he didn't intended to destroy or fight Sauron but to reveal the identity of the Necromancer what he did. He only defended himself which is... fine in my opinion.

That's why I'm fine with the scene in BOTFA. Saruman did a good job in fighting the Nazgűl.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


Dec 22 2014, 12:13pm

Post #5 of 31 (601 views)
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It's a femine conspiracy. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Nerven
Rivendell

Dec 22 2014, 12:19pm

Post #6 of 31 (605 views)
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. [In reply to] Can't Post

I really have no problem that Galadriel was the one who banished Sauron. We not even know for sure if Saruman banished him originally and either way, Sauron planned to flee to Mordor all along.

Galadriel is mighty, said to be "The greatest of the Noldor except Feanor MAYBE." The greatest of the Eldar ( which includes Galadriel) are said to match the Maia, Feanor killed a few of them (the balrogs) and she was "unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit)" All those factors lead me to believe that it is not farfetcherd to show her that powerful.

The only thing that was disappointing to me was how this was portayed, as if Galadriel was possessed.


huzzlewhat
The Shire

Dec 22 2014, 12:48pm

Post #7 of 31 (636 views)
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Pays off later [In reply to] Can't Post

I would imagine, within the movie-verse, that this will make her temptation by the ring in FOTR that much more effective. Establishing her as this powerful (and scary) without it really establishes the magnitude of the threat should she fall.


BlackFox
Half-elven


Dec 22 2014, 12:58pm

Post #8 of 31 (562 views)
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*snort* [In reply to] Can't Post

Amen!



mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 22 2014, 1:23pm

Post #9 of 31 (527 views)
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Exactly. Nicely explained..// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


mae govannen
Tol Eressea


Dec 22 2014, 1:34pm

Post #10 of 31 (537 views)
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Good quotes! Tend to agree with your last point, [In reply to] Can't Post

although I haven't sorted out yet in myself how it could have played out on screen without this darkening effect being used.
I guess I would have loved seeing and hearing Cate Blanchett herself play out that scene without this technical modification of her appearance and voice. I think she could have pulled it off well enough on her own.
And the Phial wasn't shining much in her hand, if at all, when she held it up. Unless I missed some images?

'Is everything sad going to come untrue?'
(Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)


Elarie
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2014, 2:25pm

Post #11 of 31 (547 views)
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It seems they've sort of combined two different scenes from the book [In reply to] Can't Post

I think in the book it was Saruman who drove the necromancer out of Dol Guldur and then later Galadriel who threw down it's walls, after the war of the ring. It looks like they wanted to show Galadriel's power so they took the two things and sort of switched things around. I would have enjoyed seeing Dol Guldur come tumbling down, too, even if the timeline was wrong, but perhaps that would have looked too much like Barad Dur coming down at the end of the LOTR.

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Girdle of Melian
Lorien

Dec 22 2014, 3:22pm

Post #12 of 31 (487 views)
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I think.... [In reply to] Can't Post

In reality, there are enough quotes regarding Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, Luthien, etc., that people can interpret it in many ways regarding power levels, although admittedly Galadriel's mention are quite vague but nonetheless potent in his use of his adjectives. The resistance comes more from the fact that many have such absolute beliefs that this or that is more powerful. It's not like as if it was Pippin who defeated Sauron---its Galadriel - with the Phial, and she got "weakened" healing Gandalf (I think, although I don't know why as Tauriel healed Kili as well with no "drained" issues). As for feminist movement conspiracy (lol), her role in Dol Guldur has been mainly been allocated as a "sorceress" rather than an Elf. I would have much rather see her use lore, the physical feats of the Noldorin when it comes to fighting than turning into Elvira...lol...

I think there is also a lack of active female roles in the movies and in Tolkien's books (so for demographic purposes) they need to place more female characters, such as Tauriel.


Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 22 2014, 4:07pm

Post #13 of 31 (504 views)
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She employed the power of her elven ring, which Sauron cannot [In reply to] Can't Post

defeat without The One Ring....Nenya's power gave preservation, protection, and possibly concealment from evil. Saruman and Gandalf were limited by the Valar in their response.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 22 2014, 4:13pm

Post #14 of 31 (466 views)
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Well, no. We need to be a bit careful about the quote. [In reply to] Can't Post

It doesn't say Saruman drove him out. It says that it was by the devices of Saruman that "we" drove him out.


Elarie
Grey Havens

Dec 22 2014, 4:20pm

Post #15 of 31 (443 views)
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that's true - I wonder what that means? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does anyone know what Tolkien meant by "devices"? Does it mean spells and incantations? Secret knowledge that only Saruman had?

__________________

Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.

(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)


Eruonen
Half-elven


Dec 22 2014, 4:24pm

Post #16 of 31 (436 views)
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It could simply refer to his planning.... [In reply to] Can't Post

noun
1.
a thing made for a particular purpose; an invention or contrivance, especially a mechanical or electrical one.
2.
a plan or scheme for effecting a purpose.
3.
a crafty scheme; trick.
4.
a particular word pattern, figure of speech, combination of word sounds, etc., used in a literary work to evoke a desired effect or arouse a desired reaction in the reader:
"rhetorical devices."
5.
something elaborately or fancifully designed.

"Galadriel, Elrond and I will distract him and you blast him with Nenya....."


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 22 2014, 4:25pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 22 2014, 4:39pm

Post #17 of 31 (425 views)
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Tolkien uses the word in four possible senses [In reply to] Can't Post

With potential overlap between the latter three:

1. Physical images or sigils (as on a flag)
2. Physical objects
3. Magic
4. Plans or schemes

It's use here could be any or some combination of the latter three.


KingTurgon
Rohan


Dec 22 2014, 6:13pm

Post #18 of 31 (409 views)
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Because Boyens IMO focuses too much on her favorite characters [In reply to] Can't Post

But I didn't have a problem with this particular scene. Saruman was helping too - he was just being more subtle about it. Also, it was clear at least to me (through Elrond's reaction) that Sauron wasn't really trying, he just wanted to occupy the White Council so they couldn't get to the battle at Erebor.

I enjoyed that this was a team effort. And since they let Saruman fight the Nazgul with Elrond I don't feel he was short-changed here. Of course I would have liked to see a more impressive display from him but that's because he is my favorite character in the Third Age! Smile


(This post was edited by KingTurgon on Dec 22 2014, 6:17pm)


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Dec 22 2014, 7:21pm

Post #19 of 31 (363 views)
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Yeah... [In reply to] Can't Post

...probably because they wanted the film to have more "feminine energy".

I'm with you erdildeniz, I think it should have been Saruman, or at least more of a group effort, instead of Galadriel being elevated above everyone else. Plus, I really don't like that they showed Galadriel succeeding where Gandalf failed. Wonder what AinurOlorin thinks of this - his worst fears about the way PJ would handle the scene pretty much came true.


(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Dec 22 2014, 7:26pm)


dubulous
Rohan

Dec 22 2014, 8:00pm

Post #20 of 31 (360 views)
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I don't think they showed her that powerful [In reply to] Can't Post

I actually thought that for most of the sequence she came across very weak, just lying around while Elrond and Saruman did the work, and when she finally did rise it was as some possessed demon that was barely even Galadriel.

For me, Galadriel banishing Sauron instead of Saruman was not a problem at all. On the contrary, I'm glad we got at least that, but the execution was horrible.

Besides, nowhere does it say that Saruman personally banished Sauron. It only says that he's devices were used, which could mean anything from him fighting Sauron personally to him not even being present. He could have just told the others how the attack should be carried out.


Loresilme
Valinor


Dec 22 2014, 8:33pm

Post #21 of 31 (318 views)
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Excellent point! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Dec 22 2014, 10:15pm

Post #22 of 31 (317 views)
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That's true... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Besides, nowhere does it say that Saruman personally banished Sauron. It only says that he's devices were used, which could mean anything from him fighting Sauron personally to him not even being present. He could have just told the others how the attack should be carried out.


...however Galadriel is not mentioned whatsoever in conjunction with driving Sauron from Dol Guldur. We don't even know if she was there.

We know Saruman was involved, and we know he was the major factor in driving Sauron out. Much more so than Galadriel.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

Dec 22 2014, 10:46pm

Post #23 of 31 (310 views)
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On that basis, we don't know Saruman was there either. [In reply to] Can't Post

Or anyone else, for that matter. Perhaps the assault was carried out entirely by unnamed members of the WC.


dubulous
Rohan

Dec 22 2014, 10:54pm

Post #24 of 31 (306 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

We don't know that she was there (just as we don't know for sure that Saruman was there) but considering that we do know that a.) the White Council attacked Dol Guldur and b.) she's the founding member of said council, I'd say her presence there was almost as likely as Saruman's. But Spriggan is also right, we don't actually have a confirmed presence for anyone.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


Dec 22 2014, 11:18pm

Post #25 of 31 (291 views)
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There is more textual basis... [In reply to] Can't Post

...for Saruman to be the hero of Dol Guldur than there is for Galadriel. Even if it's only a vague description.

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