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erdildeniz
Rivendell
Dec 22 2014, 11:06am
Post #1 of 31
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What is the real reason of showing Galadriel so powerful?
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Appearantly she shouldn't have been. Just because Philippa Boyens stated this? A very big feminist movement, i believe. It should be Saruman who banish Sauron from Dol Guldur. Big disappointment.
(This post was edited by erdildeniz on Dec 22 2014, 11:07am)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Dec 22 2014, 11:07am
Post #2 of 31
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I didn't have a problem with this.
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irasel
The Shire
Dec 22 2014, 11:53am
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This way Saruman has a more ambiguous role.
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They probably thought Saruman character worked better this way. And we know Galadriel is really mighty, one of the greatest among the Noldor according to Tolkien. And the Noldor achieved incredible feats... Think of Fingolfin dueling Morgoth and injuring him.
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
Dec 22 2014, 11:53am
Post #4 of 31
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I always thought that the Istari aren't allowed to challenge Sauron with pure power...
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And they don't. Even Gandalfs fight vs. Sauron in DOS was... well acceptable since he didn't intended to destroy or fight Sauron but to reveal the identity of the Necromancer what he did. He only defended himself which is... fine in my opinion. That's why I'm fine with the scene in BOTFA. Saruman did a good job in fighting the Nazgűl.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 12:13pm
Post #5 of 31
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“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Nerven
Rivendell
Dec 22 2014, 12:19pm
Post #6 of 31
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I really have no problem that Galadriel was the one who banished Sauron. We not even know for sure if Saruman banished him originally and either way, Sauron planned to flee to Mordor all along. Galadriel is mighty, said to be "The greatest of the Noldor except Feanor MAYBE." The greatest of the Eldar ( which includes Galadriel) are said to match the Maia, Feanor killed a few of them (the balrogs) and she was "unconquerable in resistance (especially in mind and spirit)" All those factors lead me to believe that it is not farfetcherd to show her that powerful. The only thing that was disappointing to me was how this was portayed, as if Galadriel was possessed.
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huzzlewhat
The Shire
Dec 22 2014, 12:48pm
Post #7 of 31
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I would imagine, within the movie-verse, that this will make her temptation by the ring in FOTR that much more effective. Establishing her as this powerful (and scary) without it really establishes the magnitude of the threat should she fall.
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BlackFox
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 12:58pm
Post #8 of 31
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Amen!
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 1:23pm
Post #9 of 31
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'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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mae govannen
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 1:34pm
Post #10 of 31
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Good quotes! Tend to agree with your last point,
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although I haven't sorted out yet in myself how it could have played out on screen without this darkening effect being used. I guess I would have loved seeing and hearing Cate Blanchett herself play out that scene without this technical modification of her appearance and voice. I think she could have pulled it off well enough on her own. And the Phial wasn't shining much in her hand, if at all, when she held it up. Unless I missed some images?
'Is everything sad going to come untrue?' (Sam, 'The Field of Cormallen', in 'The Return of the King'.)
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Dec 22 2014, 2:25pm
Post #11 of 31
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It seems they've sort of combined two different scenes from the book
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I think in the book it was Saruman who drove the necromancer out of Dol Guldur and then later Galadriel who threw down it's walls, after the war of the ring. It looks like they wanted to show Galadriel's power so they took the two things and sort of switched things around. I would have enjoyed seeing Dol Guldur come tumbling down, too, even if the timeline was wrong, but perhaps that would have looked too much like Barad Dur coming down at the end of the LOTR.
__________________ Gold is the strife of kinsmen, and fire of the flood-tide, and the path of the serpent. (Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Girdle of Melian
Lorien
Dec 22 2014, 3:22pm
Post #12 of 31
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In reality, there are enough quotes regarding Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond, Luthien, etc., that people can interpret it in many ways regarding power levels, although admittedly Galadriel's mention are quite vague but nonetheless potent in his use of his adjectives. The resistance comes more from the fact that many have such absolute beliefs that this or that is more powerful. It's not like as if it was Pippin who defeated Sauron---its Galadriel - with the Phial, and she got "weakened" healing Gandalf (I think, although I don't know why as Tauriel healed Kili as well with no "drained" issues). As for feminist movement conspiracy (lol), her role in Dol Guldur has been mainly been allocated as a "sorceress" rather than an Elf. I would have much rather see her use lore, the physical feats of the Noldorin when it comes to fighting than turning into Elvira...lol... I think there is also a lack of active female roles in the movies and in Tolkien's books (so for demographic purposes) they need to place more female characters, such as Tauriel.
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 4:07pm
Post #13 of 31
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She employed the power of her elven ring, which Sauron cannot
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defeat without The One Ring....Nenya's power gave preservation, protection, and possibly concealment from evil. Saruman and Gandalf were limited by the Valar in their response.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 4:13pm
Post #14 of 31
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Well, no. We need to be a bit careful about the quote.
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It doesn't say Saruman drove him out. It says that it was by the devices of Saruman that "we" drove him out.
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Dec 22 2014, 4:20pm
Post #15 of 31
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that's true - I wonder what that means?
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Does anyone know what Tolkien meant by "devices"? Does it mean spells and incantations? Secret knowledge that only Saruman had?
__________________ Gold is the strife of kinsmen, and fire of the flood-tide, and the path of the serpent. (Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Dec 22 2014, 4:24pm
Post #16 of 31
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It could simply refer to his planning....
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noun 1. a thing made for a particular purpose; an invention or contrivance, especially a mechanical or electrical one. 2. a plan or scheme for effecting a purpose. 3. a crafty scheme; trick. 4. a particular word pattern, figure of speech, combination of word sounds, etc., used in a literary work to evoke a desired effect or arouse a desired reaction in the reader: "rhetorical devices." 5. something elaborately or fancifully designed. "Galadriel, Elrond and I will distract him and you blast him with Nenya....."
(This post was edited by Eruonen on Dec 22 2014, 4:25pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 4:39pm
Post #17 of 31
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Tolkien uses the word in four possible senses
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With potential overlap between the latter three: 1. Physical images or sigils (as on a flag) 2. Physical objects 3. Magic 4. Plans or schemes It's use here could be any or some combination of the latter three.
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KingTurgon
Rohan
Dec 22 2014, 6:13pm
Post #18 of 31
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Because Boyens IMO focuses too much on her favorite characters
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But I didn't have a problem with this particular scene. Saruman was helping too - he was just being more subtle about it. Also, it was clear at least to me (through Elrond's reaction) that Sauron wasn't really trying, he just wanted to occupy the White Council so they couldn't get to the battle at Erebor. I enjoyed that this was a team effort. And since they let Saruman fight the Nazgul with Elrond I don't feel he was short-changed here. Of course I would have liked to see a more impressive display from him but that's because he is my favorite character in the Third Age!
(This post was edited by KingTurgon on Dec 22 2014, 6:17pm)
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 7:21pm
Post #19 of 31
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...probably because they wanted the film to have more "feminine energy". I'm with you erdildeniz, I think it should have been Saruman, or at least more of a group effort, instead of Galadriel being elevated above everyone else. Plus, I really don't like that they showed Galadriel succeeding where Gandalf failed. Wonder what AinurOlorin thinks of this - his worst fears about the way PJ would handle the scene pretty much came true.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Dec 22 2014, 7:26pm)
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dubulous
Rohan
Dec 22 2014, 8:00pm
Post #20 of 31
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I don't think they showed her that powerful
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I actually thought that for most of the sequence she came across very weak, just lying around while Elrond and Saruman did the work, and when she finally did rise it was as some possessed demon that was barely even Galadriel. For me, Galadriel banishing Sauron instead of Saruman was not a problem at all. On the contrary, I'm glad we got at least that, but the execution was horrible. Besides, nowhere does it say that Saruman personally banished Sauron. It only says that he's devices were used, which could mean anything from him fighting Sauron personally to him not even being present. He could have just told the others how the attack should be carried out.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 10:15pm
Post #22 of 31
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Besides, nowhere does it say that Saruman personally banished Sauron. It only says that he's devices were used, which could mean anything from him fighting Sauron personally to him not even being present. He could have just told the others how the attack should be carried out. ...however Galadriel is not mentioned whatsoever in conjunction with driving Sauron from Dol Guldur. We don't even know if she was there. We know Saruman was involved, and we know he was the major factor in driving Sauron out. Much more so than Galadriel.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 10:46pm
Post #23 of 31
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On that basis, we don't know Saruman was there either.
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Or anyone else, for that matter. Perhaps the assault was carried out entirely by unnamed members of the WC.
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dubulous
Rohan
Dec 22 2014, 10:54pm
Post #24 of 31
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We don't know that she was there (just as we don't know for sure that Saruman was there) but considering that we do know that a.) the White Council attacked Dol Guldur and b.) she's the founding member of said council, I'd say her presence there was almost as likely as Saruman's. But Spriggan is also right, we don't actually have a confirmed presence for anyone.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Dec 22 2014, 11:18pm
Post #25 of 31
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There is more textual basis...
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...for Saruman to be the hero of Dol Guldur than there is for Galadriel. Even if it's only a vague description.
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